Anything that disrupts targeting should disrupt Night Vision, as well.

[DemiserofD]

Night Vision must work by scanning the local environment and the highlighting physical objects.

But if it can do that, why can it see what your weapons and/or missiles cannot? It doesn't make any sense, and unfairly biases against low heat builds.

Night Vision shouldn't work on anything your sensors or weapons can't accurately see. Chaff, for example, should render them as a giant cloud, rather than as a discrete ship. If you want to shoot them with fixed weapons, you should need to disable night vision to stop being blinded by the chaff. Others, like ECM, should just remove them from your night vision entirely, leaving them only visible by eyeball.

 

[alexzk]

Chaff, for example, should render them as a giant cloud, rather than as a discrete ship

Only IF chaff is heated more then ship. And if ship do heat it - that will be heat sink, and yes, it's darn bright star-like when ejected.

NV converts "invisible" infra-red light into "visible" green color. That long light waves can bypass most things like chaff, because those are small to reflect shorter radio wave. The same object cannot avoid long and short waves.

So whatever you want and wish is wrong from physical point of view.

P.S. I think radio is longer then infra-red actually But it changes nothing - waves lengths are too different and they interact with objects different.

 

[DemiserofD]

Only IF chaff is heated more then ship. And if ship do heat it - that will be heat sink, and yes, it's darn bright star-like when ejected.

NV converts "invisible" infra-red light into "visible" green color. That long light waves can bypass most things like chaff, because those are small to reflect shorter radio wave. The same object cannot avoid long and short waves.

So whatever you want and wish is wrong from physical point of view.

P.S. I think radio is longer then infra-red actually But it changes nothing - waves lengths are too different and they interact with objects different.

I think you're missing the forest for the trees here. If it were so easy to bypass chaff, then weapons manufacturers would absolutely have taken advantage of it long ago. Who can really say how 30th century chaff works? Ultimately, it doesn't really matter; all that matters is How the Universe Works around it, and making sure that Universe makes sense.

 

[alexzk]

I think you're missing the forest for the trees here. If it were so easy to bypass chaff, then weapons manufacturers would absolutely have taken advantage of it long ago. Who can really say how 30th century chaff works? Ultimately, it doesn't really matter; all that matters is How the Universe Works around it, and making sure that Universe makes sense.

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg


Only this video could explain...maybe.

 

[Danieros]

Gimbals track movement and thus get disrupted by the chaff.

Night vision is basically enhanced sight. Your normal sight works fine against chaff. No reason why night vision would not. It's not trying to track anything.

 

[DemiserofD]

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BKorP55Aqvg


Only this video could explain...maybe.

Sorry, I wasn't clear enough.

What I'm trying to say is, it's better for gameplay if chaff and other Target canceling effects cancel night vision.

You can always make up whatever sort of technobabble you want afterwards.

 

[alexzk]

What I'm trying to say is, it's better for gameplay if chaff and other Target canceling effects cancel night vision.

That is not about "gameplay" that is about breaking physical laws currently implemented in game.
This game is simulator, i.e. it follows close to known physical facts as close as possible. You cannot blind NV or just vision by throwing chaffs in real life, so it should be absent in game.
Also you miss understand how chaffs work. They don't cancel target lock, they're BRIGHTER target then ship, so system switches to it. In terms of MMO they "taunt" target lock for short period.

 

[DemiserofD]

That is not about "gameplay" that is about breaking physical laws currently implemented in game.
This game is simulator, i.e. it follows close to known physical facts as close as possible. You cannot blind NV or just vision by throwing chaffs in real life, so it should be absent in game.
Also you miss understand how chaffs work. They don't cancel target lock, they're BRIGHTER target then ship, so system switches to it. In terms of MMO they "taunt" target lock for short period.

Sure. I'm okay with breaking the laws of physics. That's the great thing about this being a game, you can change them whenever you want! Especially if doing so is in the best interest of good gameplay, which this change would be.

If this game were advertised as a modern realistic simulator, you might have a point. But it's set a thousand years in the future, so fortunately, we don't need to worry about such limitations!

 

[alexzk]

Sure. I'm okay with breaking the laws of physics. That's the great thing about this being a game, you can change them whenever you want! Especially if doing so is in the best interest of good gameplay, which this change would be.

If this game were advertised as a modern realistic simulator, you might have a point. But it's set a thousand years in the future, so fortunately, we don't need to worry about such limitations!

We do. And most users are not OK with breaking laws. It's enough we have that weird FSD ...which is close as it can to current modern calculations. At least now we know it is possible in theory so we could assume it is made in 3300. But asking for theoretically impossible things - no way.

Also you forgot that ship has acceleration and chaffs cloud - not. So ship will fly out of cloud and be visible 1 second later again. So in 3300 they didn't bother to make cloak which will work if you dont move. Because nobody needs it.

P.S. You're free to make own game which breaks any laws u wish.

 

[DemiserofD]

We do. And most users are not OK with breaking laws. It's enough we have that weird FSD ...which is close as it can to current modern calculations. At least now we know it is possible in theory so we could assume it is made in 3300. But asking for theoretically impossible things - no way.

Also you forgot that ship has acceleration and chaffs cloud - not. So ship will fly out of cloud and be visible 1 second later again. So in 3300 they didn't bother to make cloak which will work if you dont move. Because nobody needs it.

I daresay the majority actually is in favor of breaking physics; after all, there was a huge outcry demanding the engineering materials not have a global limit, and instead we be allowed to carry vastly more, despite the fact that doing so makes absolutely no sense from a mass or physics perspective. That's just one example; when it gets right down to it, most players will always choose the option that is better for gameplay, over the option that is more authentic but less enjoyable.

And besides, I think you missed my point about this being a thousand years in the future. You are making statements based on how chaff currently works, but who knows how it works in the future? Maybe it has tiny little electromagnetic emitters, spraying out like confetti; you really can't say, because we have no idea how technology would advance.

That's why you can change the gameplay first, and make up the technobabble later, and it will always be better than the alternative.

And nobody can say that cold running ships don't need the help!

 

[alexzk]

you really can't say,

I can. Look how it looks when ship moves ... they spread behind ship. And if ship moves fast enough target locks back in second, i.e. chaffs are most effective on lower speeds. Meaning it does not have that fancy magnetic fantasy.

...if you want to hide from NV put star behind you. Star behind you will blind observer. That how chaffs exact work - they look like star for the radar and blind it,

 

[alexzk]

I daresay the majority actually is in favor of breaking physics; after all, there was a huge outcry demanding the engineering materials not have a global limit, and instead we be allowed to carry vastly more, despite the fact that doing so makes absolutely no sense from a mass or physics perspective.

You can always go and play NMS and/or Star Citizen - they fake every possible law for gamplay.
No need to break last true simulator - Elite.

 

[DemiserofD]

I can. Look how it looks when ship moves ... they spread behind ship. And if ship moves fast enough target locks back in second, i.e. chaffs are most effective on lower speeds. Meaning it does not have that fancy magnetic fantasy.

...if you want to hide from NV put star behind you. Star behind you will blind observer. That how chaffs exact work - they look like star for the radar and blind it,

Again, that's only how modern chaff works; 1,000 years in the future, it quite possibly works in entirely different ways. And it's certainly not a good justification for prohibiting good changes to gameplay.

 

[alexzk]

Again, that's only how modern chaff works; 1,000 years in the future, it quite possibly works in entirely different ways. And it's certainly not a good justification for prohibiting good changes to gameplay.

Will quot meself:

I can. Look how it looks when ship moves ... they spread behind ship. And if ship moves fast enough target locks back in second, i.e. chaffs are most effective on lower speeds. Meaning it does not have that fancy magnetic fantasy.

You can always go and play NMS and/or Star Citizen - they fake every possible law for gamplay.
No need to break last true simulator - Elite.

 

[DemiserofD]

Will quot meself:

I'm sorry, but that's not actually how the game works. Chaff lasts for the same duration, and has the same effectiveness, no matter your speed.

Edit: in fact, if it did spread out behind you, that would be actively physics violating; according to the laws of physics, it should form a cloud around you until you change your velocity. Objects in motion, and all that.

 

[alexzk]

I'm sorry, but that's not actually how the game works. Chaff lasts for the same duration, and has the same effectiveness, no matter your speed.

Edit: in fact, if it did spread out behind you, that would be actively physics violating; according to the laws of physics, it should form a cloud around you until you change your velocity. Objects in motion, and all that.

No...because they get own velocity vector non-zero to ship to spray out. So from observer point of view chaffs moves with summ of vectors ship + own.
Any way, lets discuss ur fantasy.
Imagine ship 10x10x10.
Now it spreads magnetic cloud 11x11x11 size. I cannot see ship any more. But I can see cloud, for example it covers stars. So why can't I just send rocket into cloud and be done with both?
You say - cloud will stop rocket! Ok ... aren't we speaking about shields-in-game then? I'm sure shield stops some light, for example UV radiation like your imaginary cloud.

 

[DemiserofD]

No...because they get own velocity vector non-zero to ship to spray out. So from observer point of view chaffs moves with summ of vectors ship + own.

Sure, but that could be behind, in front, straight at the attacker, it's hard to say, really. Definitely not worth simulating, however; far better to sacrifice realism for gameplay, and just have it work for a set period of time and with a set effectiveness, like it currently does. Gameplay is usually more important than realism, after all!

You say - cloud will stop rocket

I'm sorry if I ever gave that impression, but that's not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying that if the guns are unable to discretely see the enemy ship clearly, then likewise, the night vision, which presumably uses the same exact sensors, also should not be able to see the enemy ship clearly.

That's all.

 

[alexzk]

he night vision, which presumably uses the same exact sensors

It doesn't. Guns use "radar", i.e. they DO IMPULSE, then CATCH reflection. Chaffs reflect better then ship so look brighter.
Night vision just uses long waves light which is everywhere (and closest to visible part we call heat) and converts it to visible part of spectrum.

Also think about, by definition "object which cannot be seen - i.e. not emitting OR reflecting light IS the Black-hole".

 

[DemiserofD]

It doesn't. Guns use "radar", i.e. they DO IMPULSE, then CATCH reflection. Chaffs reflect better then ship so look brighter.
Night vision just uses long waves light which is everywhere and converts it to visible part of spectrum.

Also think about, by definition "object which cannot be seen - i.e. not emitting OR reflecting light IS the Black-hole".

Could you please cite your sources for what technology 31st century targeting sensors use? You speak from a position of great authority.

 

[alexzk]

Could you please cite your sources for what technology 31st century targeting sensors use? You speak from a position of great authority.

If something looks like duck, sounds like duck and walks like duck then it is duck
It uses radar principle because chaffs work against it. I.e. beam out + catch beam back.