How could players be encouraged to put themselves into dangerous pvp scenarios, even when they don't have to?

[DemiserofD]

I'm pretty sure Stormrage can do it because they have an arsenal of engineered and unlocked stuff. Pebble Fartless, a mere peasant in the eyes of the average elitist player, has but beginner gear and it takes them a lot longer and it is a lot more challenging and more tedious.

Who should earn more? Pebble Fartless the peasant - or Stormrage Metabuilder?

Haha, no, he can do it because he's a ridiculously skilled player. Give anyone else the same equipment and they'll not just take a lot longer, they'll outright fail.

Which is fine. That's how challenge is supposed to be.

I'm saying having stuff there that requires improved skill that is optional

What I was saying is, at what point do you define something as optional? If going to thargoid POI's is optional, why isn't going to thargoid systems? If going to thargoid systems can be optional, why not going to Anarchy systems? If going to Anarchy systems is optional, why isn't leaving the tutorial zone?

Basically, you're wiffling about what people need to do when ultimately everything including playing the game at all is optional. And it's not the duty of the game to cater to the desires of such people. The only duty of the game is to make a game that is as enjoyable as possible to as many people as possible.

Which is basically simple cost/benefit analysis. For example; make anarchy systems more dangerous. Who does that take away from? Well, potentially the bottom 1-10% who are physically incapable of succeeding at that challenge, no matter how hard they try. But even they will still have the rest of the galaxy, unchanged, to play normally in, so the effective REAL cost of such a change is zero. Who does it benefit? The top 90% who not only are capable of doing so, but get greater enjoyment from facing a greater challenge and getting accordingly greater rewards.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

Then the question is, what would make those sorts of game loops more interesting for you?


Being attacked based on your combat rating is a thing, but it is balanced based on unengineered ships. Engineering has totally destroyed that challenge. Additionally, the rate at which the difficulty increases is extremely slow. For the elite pilots, how long did you play before you got elite? For not elite pilots, how long have you been playing and you're not elite yet? (No need to answer out loud, just take that into consideration)
From what I understood, interdiction chances were based on being in an anarchy system, and the tonnage of cargo. NPC interdiction is a joke and it doesn't take much skill to escape an NPC interdiction unexploded. It isn't a challenge for any player that would actively desire a challenge, and it mostly just a waste of time.

Yep, after 3 years I am still only dangerous lol .. although some cmdrs seem to have got to combat elite pretty quickly.
I don't think the chance of interdiction is particularly dependent on being in an anarchy: if you have stacked a few delivery missions you will get interdicted anywhere for sure, and I often get engineered elite anaconda pirates (great for mats)

 

[physical0]

Why would I want to have NPC's capable of exploding my ship? I have had enough that at start game, thank you. If I want to pick blood from my nose, I get into CZ's....

If you wanted a challenge, then a threat to your success would be necessary. We're not talking about doing other things. If you want to play certain content, there should be an option to play that content at a difficulty level you desire.

Just because you don't wanna touch the difficulty slider doesn't mean that everyone else wouldn't want to either.

 

[physical0]

Yep, after 3 years I am still only dangerous lol .. although some cmdrs seem to have got to combat elite pretty quickly.
I don't think the chance of interdiction is particularly dependent on being in an anarchy: if you have stacked a few delivery missions you will get interdicted anywhere for sure, and I often get engineered elite anaconda pirates (great for mats)

Are they a challenge? Or, are they just a bunch of potential mats that you could have if you spent a bit of time breaking them down and scooping them up?

 

[TiberiusDuval]

If you wanted a challenge, then a threat to your success would be necessary. We're not talking about doing other things. If you want to play certain content, there should be an option to play that content at a difficulty level you desire.

Just because you don't wanna touch the difficulty slider doesn't mean that everyone else wouldn't want to either.

I'm very very sceptical because I know how Fdev would implement that idea. Basically any normal content would be nerfed to death and only way to make any reasonable money would be taking that new stuff.

Plus, well I do fly most expensive ship in the game, engineered to hilt. I do expect certain kind of performance from it.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

Are they a challenge? Or, are they just a bunch of potential mats that you could have if you spent a bit of time breaking them down and scooping them up?

Those condas are reasonably challenging yes, and fdev have i believe increased the situations where an engineered NPC can happen (not just High CZs any more, correct me by all means): I wouldn't take them on in a T9, but in a G5 Cutter they are easy yes.

I do generally agree with your points, but I thought it was worth pointing out that fdev do try to some extent to tailor difficulty to the player, but they are probably too cautious about it.

 

[physical0]

I'm very very sceptical because I know how Fdev would implement that idea. Basically any normal content would be nerfed to death and only way to make any reasonable money would be taking that new stuff.

So, you are concerned about the implementation, not the idea?

Let me ease your concerns. Fdev seldom acts upon anything the community says and this entire thread is a thought experiment with no real world impact.

Now, with that resolved, do you have any other thoughts regarding the proposal?

 

[DemiserofD]

Those condas are reasonably challenging yes, and fdev have i believe increased the situations where an engineered NPC can happen (not just High CZs any more, correct me by all means): I wouldn't take them on in a T9, but in a G5 Cutter they are easy yes.

I do generally agree with your points, but I thought it was worth pointing out that fdev do try to some extent to tailor difficulty to the player, but they are probably too cautious about it.

Honestly, I wish Fdev would do away with trying to tailor to the player at all. Like, when I was a noob I got interdicted by eagles and stuff, and it made interdictions pretty hard. Now that I'm nearing Elite combat, I instead get interdicted by T10s...which are vastly easier to escape interdiction from, and so slow to turn they're honestly easier to kill, too.

It would be far more effective to have different zones of difficulty and let players sort themselves into what they're willing to face.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

So, you are concerned about the implementation, not the idea?

Let me ease your concerns. Fdev seldom acts upon anything the community says and this entire thread is a thought experiment with no real world impact.

Now, with that resolved, do you have any other thoughts regarding the proposal?

Performance wise this:
"Plus, well I do fly most expensive ship in the game, engineered to hilt. I do expect certain kind of performance from it."

No rag tag pirate with el cheapo saturday night special should provide major threat. At least single handedly.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Haha, no, he can do it because he's a ridiculously skilled player. Give anyone else the same equipment and they'll not just take a lot longer, they'll outright fail.

Which is fine. That's how challenge is supposed to be.




What I was saying is, at what point do you define something as optional? If going to thargoid POI's is optional, why isn't going to thargoid systems? If going to thargoid systems can be optional, why not going to Anarchy systems? If going to Anarchy systems is optional, why isn't leaving the tutorial zone?

Basically, you're wiffling about what people need to do when ultimately everything including playing the game at all is optional. And it's not the duty of the game to cater to the desires of such people. The only duty of the game is to make a game that is as enjoyable as possible to as many people as possible.

Which is basically simple cost/benefit analysis. For example; make anarchy systems more dangerous. Who does that take away from? Well, potentially the bottom 1-10% who are physically incapable of succeeding at that challenge, no matter how hard they try. But even they will still have the rest of the galaxy, unchanged, to play normally in, so the effective REAL cost of such a change is zero. Who does it benefit? The top 90% who not only are capable of doing so, but get greater enjoyment from facing a greater challenge and getting accordingly greater rewards.

The point is: What is a reward? Or rather - what purpose does it serve? Usually I'd say it is a means to allow players to progress through game unlocks. The "end-game" players don't have much to unlock so it's a mere token and recognition of their "skill". Can often come in "intangibles" like cosmetics, decals and the like.
So, who should earn more? Chuck Stormborne or Stuffy Pebbles?

 

[DemiserofD]

The point is: What is a reward? Or rather - what purpose does it serve? Usually I'd say it is a means to allow players to progress through game unlocks. The "end-game" players don't have much to unlock so it's a mere token and recognition of their "skill". Can often come in "intangibles" like cosmetics, decals and the like.
So, who should earn more? Chuck Stormborne or Stuffy Pebbles?

The point is: if both players are starting from zero, WITHOUT the best equipment in the game, the more skilled of the two would acquire gear faster, while the less skilled player might not be able to acquire it at all.

And that's how it's supposed to be.

 

[INSTG8R]

I’ve been playing since Day 1 and trucking in open for years now mostly in a T9 and probably the last year in a Cutter when I finally put the rank grind effort in. It’s all G5 where it counts but a total paper tiger trader built for range. I‘m totally used to and totally win 99% NPC interdict attempts just par for the course.

BUT the last player interdict encounter I actually had was just infuriating I don’t know what kinda tech is available but his bar as pretty much at 80% right away and despite my attempts to fight it, even successfully didn’t change anything and was all but instantly pulled. I of course use my excellent Boost to just keep as far away as I can waiting for my FSD to spool back up he was still chipping away at me pretty good(Oh BTW , no comms no warning, no demands just interdict and start blasting) I‘m not a big high waker and was already at the planet so I just gpt back on course and BANG again! Same instant loss, same boost while taking damag, now my low rated shield is gone and taking some hull damage hop out again, BANG right back on me I just submit this time the mini game was all but useless so at least my FSD will spin up quickly, still no shields and hull damage is starting to add up “this will be a close one” hop out one last time hoping I’m still close to the staton to actually get away for goo. NOPE BANG, again…

Welp not gonna lie I finally combat logged because this was just turning into pointless harassment at this point, there was no “game” here and my frustration got the better of me. This wasn’t a CG probably just a hot gold route. But in all my years of playing Open and more than a few PVP interactions that haven’t always ended well. I had never felt so utterly helpless and like I said felt totally harassed . My T9 wingman was just as astonished we‘ve been trucking together in Open for at least a year and in my what 7 years I’ve never had a terrible experience like that.

I still play in Open it didn’t change my opinion but it did show me how griefing felt and how easily it can be done I don’t mind the thrill of seeing a hollow square behind me not being another trucker wondering if he’s gonna strike, but getting stuck in an endless loop with no way to counter it definitely was eye opening of what kinda “ganking” is possible with engineering and a bad attitude can do.

 

[JetsonRING]

Here's a thought: Any player with less than, say, 20 million credits receives TRIPLE monetary payouts for ANY activity completed in OPEN mode, UNTIL the player's credit balance reaches 20 million. Players with credit balances higher than 20 million receive (only) DOUBLE ( or maybe 1.5x) monetary payouts for activities completed in OPEN mode as compared to payouts from GROUP or SOLO.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

I’ve been playing since Day 1 and trucking in open for years now mostly in a T9 and probably the last year in a Cutter when I finally put the rank grind effort in. It’s all G5 where it counts but a total paper tiger trader built for range. I‘m totally used to and totally win 99% NPC interdict attempts just par for the course.

BUT the last player interdict encounter I actually had was just infuriating I don’t know what kinda tech is available but his bar as pretty much at 80% right away and despite my attempts to fight it, even successfully didn’t change anything and was all but instantly pulled. I of course use my excellent Boost to just keep as far away as I can waiting for my FSD to spool back up he was still chipping away at me pretty good(Oh BTW , no comms no warning, no demands just interdict and start blasting) I‘m not a big high waker and was already at the planet so I just gpt back on course and BANG again! Same instant loss, same boost while taking damag, now my low rated shield is gone and taking some hull damage hop out again, BANG right back on me I just submit this time the mini game was all but useless so at least my FSD will spin up quickly, still no shields and hull damage is starting to add up “this will be a close one” hop out one last time hoping I’m still close to the staton to actually get away for goo. NOPE BANG, again…

Welp not gonna lie I finally combat logged because this was just turning into pointless harassment at this point, there was no “game” here and my frustration got the better of me. This wasn’t a CG probably just a hot gold route. But in all my years of playing Open and more than a few PVP interactions that haven’t always ended well. I had never felt so utterly helpless and like I said felt totally harassed . My T9 wingman was just as astonished we‘ve been trucking together in Open for at least a year and in my what 7 years I’ve never had a terrible experience like that.

I still play in Open it didn’t change my opinion but it did show me how griefing felt and how easily it can be done I don’t mind the thrill of seeing a hollow square behind me not being another trucker wondering if he’s gonna strike, but getting stuck in an endless loop with no way to counter it definitely was eye opening of what kinda “ganking” is possible with engineering and a bad attitude can do.

That chain interdiction thing should go away for good. Thats why I advocate longish FSD downtime for interdicter. BTw. Reason I do high wake, logout, login to solo, drill when this kind of stuff happens.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Here's a thought: Any player with less than, say, 20 million credits receives TRIPLE monetary payouts for ANY activity completed in OPEN mode, UNTIL the player's credit balance reaches 20 million. Players with credit balances higher than 20 million receive (only) DOUBLE ( or maybe 1.5x) monetary payouts for activities completed in OPEN mode as compared to payouts from GROUP or SOLO.

And how would you treat player who gets some long more or less public blocklist and implements it, and then has personal gankfree open?

 

[Robert Maynard]

The point is: if both players are starting from zero, WITHOUT the best equipment in the game, the more skilled of the two would acquire gear faster, while the less skilled player might not be able to acquire it at all.

And that's how it's supposed to be.

Given that all of the Elite ranks are effectively long service awards (same in this version of the game as in the previous versions), I doubt that Frontier would be likely to skill-gate particular gear such that players could not acquire it eventually.

So while some consider skill gating to be "the way" is doesn't seem to be the way that Frontier are going. Noting that allowing skilled players to acquire gear that others can't would give those players with the gear an even easier time against game content (and other players) than those players without the unattainable (for them) gear - which is hardly likely to encourage those players without the gear to play in Open.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

Honestly, I wish Fdev would do away with trying to tailor to the player at all. Like, when I was a noob I got interdicted by eagles and stuff, and it made interdictions pretty hard. Now that I'm nearing Elite combat, I instead get interdicted by T10s...which are vastly easier to escape interdiction from, and so slow to turn they're honestly easier to kill, too.

It would be far more effective to have different zones of difficulty and let players sort themselves into what they're willing to face.

Agreed

 

[DemiserofD]

Given that all of the Elite ranks are effectively long service awards (same in this version of the game as in the previous versions), I doubt that Frontier would be likely to skill-gate particular gear such that players could not acquire it eventually.

I'm saying that is already the case. You cannot synthesize enhanced weapon ammo types if you can't kill thargoids. That's a skill gate.

 

[Brrokk]

Here's a thought: Any player with less than, say, 20 million credits receives TRIPLE monetary payouts for ANY activity completed in OPEN mode, UNTIL the player's credit balance reaches 20 million. Players with credit balances higher than 20 million receive (only) DOUBLE ( or maybe 1.5x) monetary payouts for activities completed in OPEN mode as compared to payouts from GROUP or SOLO.

 

[Riverside]

I’ve been playing since Day 1 and trucking in open for years now mostly in a T9 and probably the last year in a Cutter when I finally put the rank grind effort in. It’s all G5 where it counts but a total paper tiger trader built for range. I‘m totally used to and totally win 99% NPC interdict attempts just par for the course.

BUT the last player interdict encounter I actually had was just infuriating I don’t know what kinda tech is available but his bar as pretty much at 80% right away and despite my attempts to fight it, even successfully didn’t change anything and was all but instantly pulled. I of course use my excellent Boost to just keep as far away as I can waiting for my FSD to spool back up he was still chipping away at me pretty good(Oh BTW , no comms no warning, no demands just interdict and start blasting) I‘m not a big high waker and was already at the planet so I just gpt back on course and BANG again! Same instant loss, same boost while taking damag, now my low rated shield is gone and taking some hull damage hop out again, BANG right back on me I just submit this time the mini game was all but useless so at least my FSD will spin up quickly, still no shields and hull damage is starting to add up “this will be a close one” hop out one last time hoping I’m still close to the staton to actually get away for goo. NOPE BANG, again…

Welp not gonna lie I finally combat logged because this was just turning into pointless harassment at this point, there was no “game” here and my frustration got the better of me. This wasn’t a CG probably just a hot gold route. But in all my years of playing Open and more than a few PVP interactions that haven’t always ended well. I had never felt so utterly helpless and like I said felt totally harassed . My T9 wingman was just as astonished we‘ve been trucking together in Open for at least a year and in my what 7 years I’ve never had a terrible experience like that.

I still play in Open it didn’t change my opinion but it did show me how griefing felt and how easily it can be done I don’t mind the thrill of seeing a hollow square behind me not being another trucker wondering if he’s gonna strike, but getting stuck in an endless loop with no way to counter it definitely was eye opening of what kinda “ganking” is possible with engineering and a bad attitude can do.

What you describe here is a situation where when faced with NPCs you are within your comfort zone, you are confident of success and unchallenged.

But with the player attack that was too much, it wasn't an engaging challenge for you, only frustrating.

The flip side of that is that for your attacker, they were unchallenged by you & your equipment, and presumably what you describe as a poor attitude was borne out of a similar frustration that the encounter was not challenging.

otoh every run you made successfully delivered a lot more cargo than (for example) a more survivable Python or Clipper. Of course if you are unable to make any successful runs in the T-9 that's where a more survivable ship comes into it's own, and instead of just frustration the encounter becomes an engaging challenge with options that include the possibility of success.