How could players be encouraged to put themselves into dangerous pvp scenarios, even when they don't have to?

[Robert Maynard]

t is, though, isn't it?

Rare because we don't get 5 "I got ganked" threads a day, but one in a month.

And meaningful because people still complain here, so it must be meaningful

I expect that some don't want to sate the desires of those who engage in it to provoke salty forum posts - so don't post, even if they were forum members (which the majority of players don't seem to be).

 

[Robert Maynard]

It is the way I play. I enjoy it, I would recommend it to anyone. I think Faction conflicts played out in open are the game at it's best. Getting interdicted by a bored spawncamper looking for (and finding) an easy kill at a CG is not a part of how I play.

Indeed - the game offers each player choices as to how to play to best suit their gameplay preferences.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

Sandro literally said 'griefcondas killing noobwinders' (his terms) was perfectly fine and intended in Open. They seem to be taken by surprise by the mentality of many gamers though. Both in how willing people are to excessively exploit and troll, as well as how poorly grown men deal with occassionally having their virtual spaceship go poof. ED Open was designed by game designers seemingly more familiar with adult, in-person, board game mentality. What they got instead was a bunch of rampaging faux-adult neckbeard manchildren.

Thank you for my tea spitting moment!

 

[Vadim Kleitsin]

I suppose part of it is the difference between being killed by an NPC and another player.

With an NPC, there isn't any real intent, malicious or otherwise. Bob the Pirate and his Anaconda are there purely to add variety to your gaming experience. Bob has no choice in the matter, given that his entire purpose is to look threatening and try to destroy your ship. Bob is a challenge to be overcome, he may be hard but he should be beatable by the average player. In the event that you* don't want to deal with Bob, you can just jump away or evade his interdiction and Bob ceases to exist once you leave the instance or he fails his interdiction.

Then we get another player. Rather than flying a moderately** challenging Anaconda, the player trying to kill you is probably flying some over-optimised killing machine. Unlike Bob, this person isn't a challenge, the chances of surviving the encounter are far slimmer. While Bob might send one of his canned lines about boiling you up, the other player might not communicate at all or might communicate with the intent of getting a reaction out of their victim. Finally, there's intent. This player deliberately set out to shoot you. Bob was just doing the purpose he was designed for.

Dying to another player isn't the same as dying to an NPC. When your ship explodes because another player shot you, they got their jollies out of doing it. An NPC killing you is just part of playing the game. Sure, it might sting a bit if you hadn't died to an NPC in a while and you'd been priding yourself on that fact, but Bob the Pirate gets no joy out of doing it. Heck, Bob gets despawned anyway. There's also probably a humiliation aspect in being killed by another player.

*you, generally. Not a specific person.
**some subjective value of moderately, that is.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

I suppose part of it is the difference between being killed by an NPC and another player.

With an NPC, there isn't any real intent, malicious or otherwise. Bob the Pirate and his Anaconda are there purely to add variety to your gaming experience. Bob has no choice in the matter, given that his entire purpose is to look threatening and try to destroy your ship. Bob is a challenge to be overcome, he may be hard but he should be beatable by the average player. In the event that you* don't want to deal with Bob, you can just jump away or evade his interdiction and Bob ceases to exist once you leave the instance or he fails his interdiction.

Then we get another player. Rather than flying a moderately** challenging Anaconda, the player trying to kill you is probably flying some over-optimised killing machine. Unlike Bob, this person isn't a challenge, the chances of surviving the encounter are far slimmer. While Bob might send one of his canned lines about boiling you up, the other player might not communicate at all or might communicate with the intent of getting a reaction out of their victim. Finally, there's intent. This player deliberately set out to shoot you. Bob was just doing the purpose he was designed for.

Dying to another player isn't the same as dying to an NPC. When your ship explodes because another player shot you, they got their jollies out of doing it. An NPC killing you is just part of playing the game. Sure, it might sting a bit if you hadn't died to an NPC in a while and you'd been priding yourself on that fact, but Bob the Pirate gets no joy out of doing it. Heck, Bob gets despawned anyway. There's also probably a humiliation aspect in being killed by another player.

*you, generally. Not a specific person.
**some subjective value of moderately, that is.

All true, but an NPC won't greet you and ask if you want to wing up in a HAZ res either.

With players you can't have your cake and eat it, some will kill for no apparent reason, some will help just because, that's why some of us like open. I don't think you can realistically just keep the goodies.

 

[Riverside]

I suppose part of it is the difference between being killed by an NPC and another player.

With an NPC, there isn't any real intent, malicious or otherwise. Bob the Pirate and his Anaconda are there purely to add variety to your gaming experience. Bob has no choice in the matter, given that his entire purpose is to look threatening and try to destroy your ship. Bob is a challenge to be overcome, he may be hard but he should be beatable by the average player. In the event that you* don't want to deal with Bob, you can just jump away or evade his interdiction and Bob ceases to exist once you leave the instance or he fails his interdiction.

Then we get another player. Rather than flying a moderately** challenging Anaconda, the player trying to kill you is probably flying some over-optimised killing machine. Unlike Bob, this person isn't a challenge, the chances of surviving the encounter are far slimmer. While Bob might send one of his canned lines about boiling you up, the other player might not communicate at all or might communicate with the intent of getting a reaction out of their victim. Finally, there's intent. This player deliberately set out to shoot you. Bob was just doing the purpose he was designed for.

Dying to another player isn't the same as dying to an NPC. When your ship explodes because another player shot you, they got their jollies out of doing it. An NPC killing you is just part of playing the game. Sure, it might sting a bit if you hadn't died to an NPC in a while and you'd been priding yourself on that fact, but Bob the Pirate gets no joy out of doing it. Heck, Bob gets despawned anyway. There's also probably a humiliation aspect in being killed by another player.

*you, generally. Not a specific person.
**some subjective value of moderately, that is.

You make a good point. It applies the other way around too, killing another player is different to cannon fodder NPCs (and would be regardless of NPC strength).

I have killed 3 separate players in 6 years, in each case I was clearly the victor then specifically received a request to finish the job (in one case I wasn't fighting them, their ship was destroyed & they were stranded in an SRV so similarly helpless). I have killed over 90,000 NPCs according to my codex stats.

 

[Vadim Kleitsin]

All true, but an NPC won't greet you and ask if you want to wing up in a HAZ res either.

Lucky you. Only time I go to a HazRes with other people is if I arrange it beforehand.

With players you can't have your cake and eat it, some will kill for no apparent reason, some will help just because, that's why some of us like open. I don't think you can realistically just keep the goodies.

And some of them will ignore you blithely as you pass through the system when you type 'o7' into Local.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

Lucky you. Only time I go to a HazRes with other people is if I arrange it beforehand.


And some of them will ignore you blithely as you pass through the system when you type 'o7' into Local.

Absolutely: I have only rarely winged up with people met randomly, and I also can't abide the non replies to an o7, all too common these days.
It's just basic manners man! I'm a stickler for role play, so I don't even mind being killed by a random murder hobo as long as they make a basic effort to play the villain in comms as well, with a space theme obviously.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

We play different types of competitive games, obviously.

Our whole argument is moot, since ED already has these "modes". Solo, PG, and Open.

The only way Solo and PG players would be encouraged to try Open is if they agreed with any proposed changes to Open. Open players already play in Open. This thread is about catering to CMDRs who don't.

Competitive game? Where are leaderboards showing how you compete against other commanders? Have any Powerplay faction ever been stomped out of game? Elite isn't a competitive game.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

How is it that ganking having harsher punishments, interdiction being more difficult, and security being buffed not proposing that Open be made safer? It seems pretty obvious to me that's what CMDRs who don't normally play in Open, and might like to, want.

Once again, you've fixated on me personally. It's getting weird dude.

If you think I'm some kind of bully irl I'd like to point out that it's YOU who have a problem. You have quoted me several times after I told you I don't have a personal problem with you, and always with a snarky, passive aggressive quip at my mental state or the mental state of Open players. All over simple disagreements about a goddamn video game.

Irl I work in dog daycare. I take care of dogs 30 plus hours a week. I'm such a horrible person.

I've never done this to anyone on any online forum, but you're getting blocked. You're just as toxic as the gankers.

Hope to see you in Open one day! I'll send you right back to Solo!

Well question is how to encourage players to be part of possible unwanted PVP you need to have some ways to encourage people to play in open. So basically you are trying to recruit people to play in Open instead of solo or restrictive PG. Now people play in those modes because they generally do NOT like unwanted PVP. So get that endresult ie. more possible targets for PVP'ers you need to compromise. You cannot have your cake and eat it same time. It seems to me that PVP crowd do not want any compromises levelling the playfield, so we are at impasse.

 

[Navigare Necesse Est]

Competitive game? Where are leaderboards showing how you compete against other commanders? Have any Powerplay faction ever been stomped out of game? Elite isn't a competitive game.

You wouldn't be on the list anyway, carebear peasant. It's for the l33t players who don't have scruples farming noobacondas with their grieferwinders. Or something. I'm sure Sandro would remember - I dont.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

I've got a simple example I can share. There are some PvPers among our opponents who have some of my powerplay group's top-flight PvPers blocked (for crimes like "being a better pilot", or for successfully blowing them up while they were doing powerplay activity against us). That means that when they attack my T9 hauling for powerplay in a 4 FDL wing, and I ask for support, my guys say "nah, so and so has me blocked, no point". Thus I shrug and say I guess no deliveries tonight then, or make do with the second tier guys on my side if they're available. Or coordinate with other haulers so that some of the "herd" get through. I think the issue is deeper than that but at least this is a concrete example.

In busy locations, someone else's blocking can completely change the set of people that I instance with - because it is no longer dictated by the neutral happenstance of ping/time zone, etc. (and of course I won't know that, and can't prove it, but it is impossible to conceive of that not happening). If lots of people entering SC in a system have different others there blocked, then that requires there to be enough separate instances to satisfy all those block constraints. More instances means fewer players per instance (multiplayer sad), and if blocking is prevalent enough then those instances could be quite artificially constituted and barely random at all.

Yes, this is a thought experiment, not a real, in-game experiment, and if blocking is at a low enough level generally, then in general, the effects will not be overwhelming. If people avoid blocking excessively or clear their blockists or if blocking had a timeout then that'd mitigate it. And I've never been randomly ganked by the same person on two different days (with the exception of D.com). In powerplay it's different, the same people turn up to legitimately-in-context blow me up time and again, and the same people defend me. It's an argument for block working differently between hostile pledges doing powerplay activities.

Simple answer, if you do not want to get blocked, stop shooting anything that moves. I don't basically care about "feelings" and intansce problems of some ganker or his/her friends who ended up on my blocklist. Or okay, I care about as much as they cared about my play experience when they tried ganking me.

 

[CaptainPugwash]

Competitive game? Where are leaderboards showing how you compete against other commanders? Have any Powerplay faction ever been stomped out of game? Elite isn't a competitive game.

Tell that to some of the people at PvP hub or to any number of groups that actively support their player factions or indeed factions of their choice against other player groups. Some of the saltiest forum posts have derived from such conflicts.

 

[Misty_Dark]

Mate, what is your issue? You asked for an example, I provided one. I am not against the concept of blocking people at all, I am just providing some info. If all you can do is respond with whataboutisms and insults please take your tribalism elsewhere. Just because the concept has some practical implications doesnt mean I am a Mortal Enemy of the Great Clan of the Blocklist.

Using the ignore function complicates the matchmaking process. Whatever you do with that fact is not my concern, but I would prefer if you can just accept it without further outbursts.

my issue is that what you gave as an example is working as intended, and this have been emphasized by strengthening how this function works.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

Tell that to some of the people at PvP hub or to any number of groups that actively support their player factions or indeed factions of their choice against other player groups. Some of the saltiest forum posts have derived from such conflicts.

Peoples Democratic Front of Backwateristan against Democratic Peoples Front of Backwateristan, who cares?

 

[CaptainPugwash]

Peoples Democratic Front of Backwateristan against Democratic Peoples Front of Backwateristan, who cares?

All the large groups have active BGS players, and the have on a number of occasions given rise to accusations of cheating etc. Just because you don't participate, it doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

 

[wrmiller]

This thread is proof that BOTH sides are hell bent on having their cake and eating it too, since Solo players just want Open to be safer.


I doubt that many Solo players even care what happens in Open. I certainly don't.

 

[TiberiusDuval]

All the large groups have active BGS players, and the have on a number of occasions given rise to accusations of cheating etc. Just because you don't participate, it doesn't mean it's irrelevant.

They are just subset of players. One can easily play ED without basically any player vs player competitive aspect.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

Absolutely: I have only rarely winged up with people met randomly, and I also can't abide the non replies to an o7, all too common these days.
It's just basic manners man! I'm a stickler for role play, so I don't even mind being killed by a random murder hobo as long as they make a basic effort to play the villain in comms as well, with a space theme obviously.

Now - about that I have a thing or two to say! You need to be a bit more tolerant, Pugsy!

I've recently ventured out in Open - I mean, I'm playing Odyssey, which is as good as a PG - and flown to Jameson ! I'm jump-skimming - just scooping enough to keep me from running out whilst minimizing my in-system time. So I'm consumed with the flying part of the game to avoid hitting the exclusion zone and timing my jumps to almost, but not quite, hit 90% heat. It's involving. So just before the countdown I see that someone has o7 in local. Then immediately I see "How rude!" and I'm gone...

Now I reach Shinrarta and there's a ton of comms and quite a few players farting around - someone who failed to gank another getting uppity because his prey got away from him - so I reach Jameson without incident but there's a lot of chat, so I put the landing sequence on automatic so that I can respond to the hails and join in the conversation - a little taunting the poor unsuccessful ganker - probably not a good idea - anyway, while I am typing away, I'm entering the station and some nut in a Imperial Cow is sitting at the cattle prod, berating me because he nearly boost-exited straight into me and telling me I'm an idiot...

So in trying not to be rude, and handling my communications while letting my ship fly itself in, I get told I'm an idiot! You can't have your cake and eat it. Either I'm busy piloting and you have to consider that I don't immediately see your comms - or I'm talking to you and not necessarily situation away. You can't have it both ways!

/rant

 

[CaptainPugwash]

Now - about that I have a thing or two to say! You need to be a bit more tolerant, Pugsy!

I've recently ventured out in Open - I mean, I'm playing Odyssey, which is as good as a PG - and flown to Jameson ! I'm jump-skimming - just scooping enough to keep me from running out whilst minimizing my in-system time. So I'm consumed with the flying part of the game to avoid hitting the exclusion zone and timing my jumps to almost, but not quite, hit 90% heat. It's involving. So just before the countdown I see that someone has o7 in local. Then immediately I see "How rude!" and I'm gone...

Now I reach Shinrarta and there's a ton of comms and quite a few players farting around - someone who failed to gank another getting uppity because his prey got away from him - so I reach Jameson without incident but there's a lot of chat, so I put the landing sequence on automatic so that I can respond to the hails and join in the conversation - a little taunting the poor unsuccessful ganker - probably not a good idea - anyway, while I am typing away, I'm entering the station and some nut in a Imperial Cow is sitting at the cattle prod, berating me because he nearly boost-exited straight into me and telling me I'm an idiot...

So in trying not to be rude, and handling my communications while letting my ship fly itself in, I get told I'm an idiot! You can't have your cake and eat it. Either I'm busy piloting and you have to consider that I don't immediately see your comms - or I'm talking to you and not necessarily situation away. You can't have it both ways!

/rant

I didn’t get where I am today by being tolerant