Small personal Capital ships for small teams please?

[GoldenSilver484]

If you want to go down the path of RL comparisons, FCs are not analogous to Aircraft Carriers; which by contrast feature way more capability than an FC goes near...

Yeah, no. FCs far outclass IRL aircraft carriers in terms of capabilities.

FCs are fully capable of supporting 40 total starships ranging from 8 cargo ships comparable to C5 Galaxies and the An-225, to a wing of 8 fighters comparable to F-35s, all at once.
An IRL carrier can barely manage a single C-130 on its deck.

FCs also don't need an entire battlegroup composed of a dozen or so other ships to defend themselves, they'd obliterate even the Federal or Imperial battlecruisers in a 1 on 1 fight.

On top of carrying nearly 20k tons of miscellaneous cargo, less if the owner decides to let other CMDRs store their own starships aboard.

where an FC is more comparable to a cargo freighter, or a hundreds-of-thousands road train, while the aforementioned cutter is more akin to, say, an Abrams tank, which has a multi-million pricetag.

Most cargo freighters, especially those that could carry 40 of the 60+ ton Abrams, cost tens of millions.

 

[Jmanis]

Most cargo freighters, especially those that could carry 40 of the 60+ ton Abrams, cost tens of millions.

So, a comparable cost being $10m a piece. This is exactly what I'm saying.

Yeah, no. FCs far outclass IRL aircraft carriers in terms of capabilities.

FCs are fully capable of supporting 40 total starships ranging from 8 cargo ships comparable to C5 Galaxies and the An-225, to a wing of 8 fighters comparable to F-35s, all at once.
An IRL carrier can barely manage a single C-130 on its deck.

FCs also don't need an entire battlegroup composed of a dozen or so other ships to defend themselves, they'd obliterate even the Federal or Imperial battlecruisers in a 1 on 1 fight.

On top of carrying nearly 20k tons of miscellaneous cargo, less if the owner decides to let other CMDRs store their own starships aboard.


Most cargo freighters, especially those that could carry 40 of the 60+ ton Abrams, cost tens of millions.

So we're just going to ignore the full HQ command capabilities, EW suites and other tactical and strategic support features, none of which FC's provide? Cool. Aircraft carriers are also typically decked out with full commercial features to support it's occupants including thousands of tonnes of "miscellaneous cargo".

I'm also not sure how you're comparing this to a 1-on-1 fight with a superpower capship; that's actually not a reasonable comparison considering there's no game element to actually fighting an FC, and it's defence system is designed as a punitive response to player crime in the area. If they could, I guarantee a rebalance of FC armaments (and the ability to disable them) would be on the cards, and then much like a capital ship, a single player with a tanked anaconda could knock it out, just like all other megaships and capitals in the game.

 

[varonica]

Having never been blown up by any ganker on return to the bubble (thanks solo!) after a long jaunt, that's not a big deal at all. Plus, there's plenty of outposts out there to return data to along the way anyway.

I have in fact, but that's beside the point, if I have a lot of exploration data now and want to check it in at a station I always go solo, so no there's not a lot that happens like that, because if it happens once it never happens again. The very existence of gankers, regardless of the chances of actually being ganked, drives us into solo for that sort of thing. But not having to go back to the bubble to cash data, drop into a station for repairs, that's the meaningful part, not the avoidance of gankers. Explorers are truly independant now with UC, repair and restock, a choice of ships, and that's what's significant and the point I was trying to make, not the avoidance of gankers.

 

[Ian Skippy]

what is afforable? be able to buy one after 5 minutes play? 1 hour of play? 10 hours of play? How does this stack against all the exciting stuff you can buy... are these affordable?

I guess it is to much to ask to have reasonable requests that actually contains some tangiable info instead of a generic words without any relation.

I have played about 3000 hours, have been triple elite for years, and am not halfway to a FC. If you ignore meta-exploiting it's super obvious what OP means. Or why ED has the reputation of being horrible grindy.

"But if you follow this YouTube guide ad nauseum for only 30 hours you already have a FC!!!*

Yes, that is what is wrong with ED.

 

[DemiserofD]

I have played about 3000 hours, have been triple elite for years, and am not halfway to a FC. If you ignore meta-exploiting it's super obvious what OP means. Or why ED has the reputation of being horrible grindy.

"But if you follow this YouTube guide ad nauseum for only 30 hours you already have a FC!!!*

Yes, that is what is wrong with ED.

You shouldn't get the most expensive things in the game without trying. The problem is the bland repetition, not the fact you need to put in any effort at all.

 

[varonica]

I have played about 3000 hours, have been triple elite for years, and am not halfway to a FC. If you ignore meta-exploiting it's super obvious what OP means. Or why ED has the reputation of being horrible grindy.

"But if you follow this YouTube guide ad nauseum for only 30 hours you already have a FC!!!*

Yes, that is what is wrong with ED.

When FC's dropped I had just enough in the bank to buy one and put 600m in it to keep it running. Now I still have an FC, 3b cash on hand and plenty more than 600m in the carrier and I haven't done any grinding, in fact I have never relogged to get mats. FC's simply weren't designed to be available for players with 5 minutes in the game. Whether it takes a player 5 minutes or 3 years to get enough money is irrelevant. There's never been a game I have played where you can get the best in game gear immediately, even when it's available on the player market it's out of reach for all but long time players and it's usually years before you can afford it.

Grind only exists for those who grind, and people will grind to get something desirable, so the answer is to make everything immediately and cheaply available and remove grinding by making nothing desirable. Remove all achievements from the game and the game essentially becomes pointless and people stop playing. How many threads have I read where new players have followed the youtube guides, got a Conda and are now on the forums asking what to do next because as far as they can see there's nothing left to do, they have achieved endgame!

Opinions differ, but my opinion is, some things should be hard to get, some things should be hard to do, whether that's in time invested or simply skill involved is irrelevant. Some people say going to BP is not hard just long and boring and they can't stand jumping over and over again and want a fast way to get there, but yes that also comes under the category of "hard to do" not because it's difficult in skill based matters, it's not, but because it takes time and patience and the ability to actually do it.

It takes time to save money up to buy a FC, that's the barrier FDEV have put up to getting one.

 

[Jmanis]

You shouldn't get the most expensive things in the game without trying. The problem is the bland repetition, not the fact you need to put in any effort at all.

The bland repetition aspect is because the most expensive things do not come from "trying".

I will absolutely stand firm that the activities which require the most planning, effort and diversity of activity are also the least rewarding, and I'll gladly die on that hill. Ever heard of someone getting a cool 5b doing:

• Scenarios
• "Mysterious Stranger" contact chains
• Thargoid/Other Xeno Tissue Sampling
• Salvaging
• Megaship Raiding
• Anything Odyssey related
• Smuggling
• Supporting Anarchy factions
• Exploiting combinations of stateful BGS effects (emphasis on combinations)
• USS and surface POI exploring
• Anything guardian related
• Threat 5/6/7 Pirate Activity sites (where the most challenging and threatening pirates reside)

...Of course not. Funnily enough, some of these did exist, and they got nerfed, despite having less income than modern cash-cows like

• Massacre Stacking/Wing Stack variants
• Road to riches exploration
• Mining
• Basic Cargo Hauls
• AX Interceptor ganks

... all basic activities. The "challenge" isn't in complexity, it's just in volume of grind, and that's trashbin design.

 

[DemiserofD]

The bland repetition aspect is because the most expensive things do not come from "trying".

I will absolutely stand firm that the activities which require the most planning, effort and diversity of activity are also the least rewarding, and I'll gladly die on that hill. Ever heard of someone getting a cool 5b doing:

• Scenarios
• "Mysterious Stranger" contact chains
• Thargoid/Other Xeno Tissue Sampling
• Salvaging
• Megaship Raiding
• Anything Odyssey related
• Smuggling
• Supporting Anarchy factions
• Exploiting combinations of stateful BGS effects (emphasis on combinations)
• USS and surface POI exploring
• Anything guardian related
• Threat 5/6/7 Pirate Activity sites (where the most challenging and threatening pirates reside)

...Of course not. Funnily enough, some of these did exist, and they got nerfed, despite having less income than modern cash-cows like

• Massacre Stacking/Wing Stack variants
• Road to riches exploration
• Mining
• Basic Cargo Hauls
• AX Interceptor ganks

... all basic activities. The "challenge" isn't in complexity, it's just in volume of grind, and that's trashbin design.

Eh, the hardest and most interesting activity also pays the best, so it's not all bad. Group thargoid combat, that is.

 

[Lugh]

In what meaningful ways? Considering the lack of any form of content which requires more than a fuel scoop, ADS/DSS and maybe an SRV, I'm not convinced there's 5b worth of value in being able to refit and build, nor do I see any "revolutionizing" of that system by FCs

I take it you don't do much exploration do you? Just the ability to continually explore with your friends is huge. No need to worry if Jims job suddenly needs him to work over time the next four weekends or that bob has a kid and can't get on often. FCs make it so that anytime a friend can get on they are able to explore the same things you are.

You seem to downplay just how much more you can get out of an exploration vessel when you don't need to account for any of the longevity systems or not needing to have a max jump drive and be able to bring large fighter bays to explore solo or again with friends. Needing to scout out viable mining systems ahead of the carrier and then work together mining those belts adds an extra element to the long term gameplay loop.

One of my favorite memories from ED involved us essentially getting stranded after a dry spell on hot spots and actually using a hauler to move ore 3 jumps while the others mined. At no other point in this game have I come across a situation where a hauler was beneficial over just having more people mine.

Not needing to return to the bubble to ultimately "cash in" on your exploration data and get those first discoveries is also something im sure is important to those who play for that.

So yeah I would say just for exploration it was worth grinding for a week to get one.

And really most aspects of it, their worth comes from what they do to facilitate group play.


Trade routes they work great letting you move them to a current hot spot and your friends are able to start trading as soon as they log in. Squad BM make this even easier.

We also use them to move from conflict zone to conflict zone for some PVE or to current event sights. Really whatever activity we want to do. We never need to group everyone up because we all just log off in and move with the carrier.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

If individuals can afford a regular fleet carrier why would small groups need a smaller cheaper carrier?

If you want a FC for your group, just use someone else's FC to transfer credits over to a single person and get them to buy one for the group.

Maybe what the game needs is a Fleet Carrier Carrier! Where people can dock their Fleet Carriers so everyone can travel at once as a group! With a 10,000 LY jump range!

Bonus points if it can transform into dum dum dum dum dum MEGAMAID!

 

[Jmanis]

Eh, the hardest and most interesting activity also pays the best, so it's not all bad. Group thargoid combat, that is.

I'll be honest, it's the only thing i could think of that did match... though my understanding is it's more just ganking interceptors that really pulls the dollars

 

[DemiserofD]

Honestly, seems like multicrew is the answer here.

 

[GoldenSilver484]

So, a comparable cost being $10m a piece. This is exactly what I'm saying.

I said tens of millions, not 10 million. Even then, those $10 million cargo ships definitely don't come with the state-of-the-art weaponry and navigation systems that FCs do.

So we're just going to ignore the full HQ command capabilities, EW suites and other tactical and strategic support features, none of which FC's provide? Cool.

Yup, FCs don't provide those services simply because there's zero reason for FD to spend time and resources on developing them.

If there was a reason, like having the refueling service installed ment you then managed a few ships that either scooped from stars or bought from stations, it would be very apparent that FCs had similar capabilities.

Aircraft carriers are also typically decked out with full commercial features to support it's occupants including thousands of tonnes of "miscellaneous cargo".

So another point to FCs being more like aircraft carriers than cargo ships, especially once the FCs get concourses.

I'm also not sure how you're comparing this to a 1-on-1 fight with a superpower capship; that's actually not a reasonable comparison considering there's no game element to actually fighting an FC, and it's defence system is designed as a punitive response to player crime in the area.

I'm comparing a FC's ability to possibly fight off another capital class vessel with an IRL aircraft carrier's lack of.

If they could, I guarantee a rebalance of FC armaments (and the ability to disable them) would be on the cards, and then much like a capital ship, a single player with a tanked anaconda could knock it out, just like all other megaships and capitals in the game.

If FD did make damaging a FC possible, they very likely would rebalance (nerf) their damage output, but the salt and forum rage that would erupt when CMDRs just start blasting every FC for the lolz is a near guarantee they won't be changing that anytime soon.
The entire DSSA carrier network would completely collapse within 24 hours too.

 

[Jmanis]

I take it you don't do much exploration do you? Just the ability to continually explore with your friends is huge. No need to worry if Jims job suddenly needs him to work over time the next four weekends or that bob has a kid and can't get on often. FCs make it so that anytime a friend can get on they are able to explore the same things you are.

You seem to downplay just how much more you can get out of an exploration vessel when you don't need to account for any of the longevity systems or not needing to have a max jump drive and be able to bring large fighter bays to explore solo or again with friends. Needing to scout out viable mining systems ahead of the carrier and then work together mining those belts adds an extra element to the long term gameplay loop.

One of my favorite memories from ED involved us essentially getting stranded after a dry spell on hot spots and actually using a hauler to move ore 3 jumps while the others mined. At no other point in this game have I come across a situation where a hauler was beneficial over just having more people mine.

Not needing to return to the bubble to ultimately "cash in" on your exploration data and get those first discoveries is also something im sure is important to those who play for that.

So yeah I would say just for exploration it was worth grinding for a week to get one.

And really most aspects of it, their worth comes from what they do to facilitate group play.


Trade routes they work great letting you move them to a current hot spot and your friends are able to start trading as soon as they log in. Squad BM make this even easier.

We also use them to move from conflict zone to conflict zone for some PVE or to current event sights. Really whatever activity we want to do. We never need to group everyone up because we all just log off in and move with the carrier.

So, you might be mistaking "no value" with "not 5b worth of value".

I don't disagree with the things you say a FC is useful for. What i do disagree with is that it's remotely worth 5b credits.

For starters, most of what you cite is "better facilitates group play". The fact that's not inherent in the game itself instead of being locked behind a 5b asset considered to be "endgame content" is pretty indictful design. If anything, that strengthens the case for lowering its cost.

You also cite CZ resupply; convenient yes, but again, worth 5b? When the same can be achieved with ~100k in materials? Or ~1m for premium ammo, which an FC couldn't provide? Not seeing the value there.

You mention scouting mining locations; why do you need to mine in the black, other than for FC fuel? That's a self licking icecream right there. Maybe it does make hauling minerals a single jump back easier, but again, 5b worth of easier? Nope.

As for exploration longevity, I've basically been around the entire galaxy and not had an issue around longevity. The ability to sell explo data is an interesting one, considering FD didn't plan to put that in there, and simply caved to the toys-out- the- pram that resulted. Personally I think it's pretty ridiculous that you can sell exploration data ostensibly to yourself out in the black, but that's irrelevant to this.

Trade routes again, kinda situational, but that was always going to be a thing, which imo is the lessons lion's share of what I'd see s 1b worth of value in the fc.

What disturbs me the most is your comment about "a week's grind to get one"; that's a damning indictment of the state of the game's economy. These broken cash cow mechanics have warped the concept of worth and value in the game. That is a whole problem in itself, and why we'll ultimately disagree here. The game doesn't value effort, playing smart and doing the hard, interesting things. Only base mechanics which don't promote deeper exploration of the game's mechanics.

 

[alexzk]

worth 5b

Is ability to temporary drop cargo and swap ships + ability all ships follow me.
I.e. that is called "bank" in other games, here is FC, that's why is the price. Everything else is just nice addition.

 

[Northpin]

Is it convenient? Sure. Is it necessary? Not really. Is it worth a 5b pricetag? Not really.

Well, carriers put on the table several unique features - long jump range, storage (generic personal storage and/or hauling storage), microjumps.
All in all a personal and relocatable base of operations. No ship can feature that.
Ofc people managed to play the game good enough before carriers, but Carrier do add some nice things to the gameplay

IMO even 10bn would have been an acceptable price (for me, all things considered).
At 5bn it seems just about right.
At 3.5bn (due to the CG) and it was cheap enough that even my Epic alt got a carrier.

Ah, if i remember now you were doing targeting high-value mineral hauling missions... which I know historically we've disagreed on the concept that I see those as being another broken cash-cow (because hauling rewards shouldn't be based on cargo value). Those, massacre stacking, Borann mining, they're all just variants on a theme. So, I'd lump it in with that.

While i did some Robigo, i'd say that was not the bulk of operations (for me Robigo is not good as a credits machine, but for the combined value of credits, imperial ranking, mission g5 materials)
No, i simply settle in a system that has 7-8 factions, preferably industrial. Then i stack missions to the max and i do them by destination/type (all agri supply delivery, all hightech supply delivery, all extraction/refinery, all massacre, etc.)
A Python delivering or supplying 3x 90t missions might mean 10+ millions for a single 3 minutes trip

All in all, it provided enough cash and enough variance to make it worth while with basically no burnout risks.

 

[Misty_Dark]

I have played about 3000 hours, have been triple elite for years, and am not halfway to a FC. If you ignore meta-exploiting it's super obvious what OP means. Or why ED has the reputation of being horrible grindy.

"But if you follow this YouTube guide ad nauseum for only 30 hours you already have a FC!!!*

Yes, that is what is wrong with ED.

So a nice anecdote about your obvious lack of understanding how to make money by simply playing the game.

Players that have played for years and just observing and testing things out, should with some efforts, have made enough credits to buy one of each ship including a Fleet Carrier.
No need to follow any get rich fast schemes.


But being ignorant and lazy, will of course not produce much credits. You need to be observant about what you see in the game, and testing things out. and by playing 3000 hours, you should have had the opportunity to observe and test various things out. Even reading the patch notes gives suggestions and hints on new things that might be worth testing. And I am not saying you have to test everything out.

So lets just do some simple maths.... 3000 hours played. How much credits would you have gathered if the average amount of credit earning per hour would be
1 million -> 3 000 million (3 billions)
5 millions -> 15 000 millions (15 billions)
10 million -> 30 000 millions ( 30 billions)

So owning atleast one of each ship with A-rated modules and the most expensive hull is less than 9 billion credits, it is less, but a nice figure. Add another 6 billion for maxed out Fleet Carrier without a shipyard and we are looking at some 15 billion credits.

So failing to make 5 millions/hour on average is an impressive task to accomplish, as there plenty of options to make credits by just playing the game, and doing missions. Many missions that pays around 5 million credits will most of the time, take less than an hour to complete, and it is not uncommon, that you can combine this with another mission, that you can complete at the same time, double your income without doubling your time. and if you can do 3, 4 or even more mission in one go, then your income will ben even higher.
So without putting to much effort, it is very feasible to make 30-50 million credits per hour, and if you would actually work in this, you should have no problem making over 100 million credits. So spending one hour, earning 100 million credits, would allow you to stare at the sky for 20 hours and still make the magical 5 million per hour on average.


So I do not buy that argument that you cannot afford a fleet carrier after 3000 hours played and that should be the fault of the game, that is a fault of your own making. becuase the game now offers plenty of options to make enough credits, but you will have to look for them, it is not going to throw all those credits at you for "doing nothing".

 

[Lugh]

I feel like you didn't actually read my post at all.

The fact that's not inherent in the game itself instead of being locked behind a 5b asset considered to be "endgame content" is pretty indictful design. If anything, that strengthens the case for lowering its cost.

Except the cost is pretty low and gets smaller and smaller the bigger your group gets. again with only 4 people you're looking at simply using trading for about 12-13 hrs total that's not a lot.

You also cite CZ resupply;

No, I didn't this is why I don't think you actually read my post and rather just skimmed it.

That's a self licking icecream right there

Yeah... that's why I said it created an addition to the gameplay loop when exploring with these.

Maybe it does make hauling minerals a single jump back easier, but again, 5b worth of easier? Nope.

No, no it doesn't not really or at least that had nothing to do with the situation I pointed out. This is somewhat true in the bubble mining voids but there is also generally spots where your only 1 jump from the location you would sell too and in that case it is far faster just to haul it yourself not in a carrier.

Personally I think it's pretty ridiculous that you can sell exploration data ostensibly to yourself out in the black,

You don't sell it to yourself. I don't know how you would even get that impression.

These broken cash cow mechanics have warped the concept of worth and value in the game.

again I got mine in under a week using normal game mechanics just running a mission type I enjoyed. I could have gotten one a lot faster if I was chancing the FOTM money printer

Trade routes again, kinda situational, but that was always going to be a thing, which imo is the lessons lion's share of what I'd see s 1b worth of value in the fc.

I thought you said it was being used as a hauler? in the example I gave its not being used that way at all.

 

[Jmanis]

I feel like you didn't actually read my post at all.

Funnily enough, I read it again, and nothing new stood out.

Incidentally, I don't think you're actually reading my posts as well, otherwise you'd have remembered the very first point which you omitted from that quote dissection:

So, you might be mistaking "no value" with "not 5b worth of value".

I'm not questioning that there's ways to use an FC which might be perceived "useful" by you. My argument is that none of them even come close to being worth 5b credits.... with that perception only being reinforced by farming a cash cow.

You said:

again I got mine in under a week using normal game mechanics just running a mission type I enjoyed. I could have gotten one a lot faster if I was chancing the FOTM money printer

I don't doubt anything you're saying here. But that doesn't preclude the "mission type you enjoyed" being a money printer (if not a minor FOTM one)in the first place.

If you doubt me, go earn 5b with any of the methods listed above. In fact, here's the things I enjoy most:

• Hostage/Lawful Hijack missions
• Thargoid Tissue Sampling
• Megaship Raids
• USS and Scenarios
• Smuggling
• Odyssey missions, wholesale

Let me know how well you go with that. The issue continuing to be that the imbalance of activities is providing a false concept of "value" by the bigger cash spinners. Most things need a substantial buff (to honestly ridiculous levels). I don't doubt you got that 5b in two weeks effort doing your favourite activity, and therefore you think 5b is a reasonable figure.

The problem with your argument is that the majority of activities in the game don't spin cash like that, and this is why the economy in Elite continues to be completely messed up.

In short, my argument is there's small subset of popular activities which continue to pay too much, and ruin the concept of "value" for the rest of the game. As a reverse example, if you omit the cash cows, the economy is in a pretty good state in terms of earning credits for ships and equipment, but an FC is just way out of proportion. Meanwhile, if you only consider the cash cows... the prices of ships and equipment is virtually a meaningless blip, and an FC "feels sound".

That's a prime broken economy right there.

 

[Northpin]

If you doubt me, go earn 5b with any of the methods listed above. In fact, here's the things I enjoy most:

• Hostage/Lawful Hijack missions
• Thargoid Tissue Sampling
• Megaship Raids
• USS and Scenarios
• Smuggling
• Odyssey missions, wholesale

Yea, unfortunately none of those are high paying stuff - although if you do (2) in a FragConda you could get some easy credits nuking Cyclops.
I like (1) and (6) too but they're not really paying much - at least (6) certainly pay peanuts

Fortunately for me i really enjoyed stacking trading missions and combat missions - with the occasional fetch mission (black boxes, art, hostages, political prisoners)