Shooter Mechanics

[CMDR Reza Malin]

Complaint: The combat mechanics overall are sub-par for an FPS shooter

Solution: Redo it

They really aren't to be fair. As someone who played a lot of odyssey content recently, and has played a lot of shooters, i am enjoying it more and more as i learn the totally different principles and mechanics behind a new game mode.

You just have to use the right gear for the right missions, especially relative to the difficulty. You also have to apply brain. I agree on one thing though, the oppressor is currently lacklustre, especially compared to the other Manticore weapons.

The mechanics are pretty decent, especially when you realise they have to be incorporated into the overall game.

 

[Peter Mannion]

But surely FD know what they are doing, or else it wouldn't be successful as an expansion, bugs aside - for example the console players are incredibly upset at not knowing when they are getting it. Maybe they are a niche group though by your description?

Well you could argue whether the expansion has been successful. They have had lower than expected sales. Nothing so far has really screamed success.

Console players wont yet know whether they like Odyssey until they play it. Could be a number of reasons why they are wanting Odyssey besides the fps. Just the ability to walk around is fairly satisfying to a lot of players. Once you play it for a couple weeks/months and the first impression wares thin, you start to critique the core elements of the expansion more. The fps element just isn't anything special, even when the expansion is designed to centre around it.

 

[Peter Mannion]

So, those who do enjoy the expansion are unimportant in your reckoning? OK.

never said that. Just doesn't really make much sense to design a bad shooter to "please" a small proportion of the community that don't really care about it, instead of putting passion into their work and make a decent shooter that can be praised by a much larger percent of the community, including this "small proportion of players" we have defined.

 

[Morbad]

A 45 mph neon grapefruit isn't that useful for hitting distant targets.

When the targets are blind and dumb, it works well enough. Landing headshots at 80m is pretty tricky if the target is moving, but they usually ignore misses.

Anyway, it would certainly feel better, to me, if projectile velocities were increased, perhaps at the cost of some other trade off. NPCs should react to the sight of plasma projectiles regardless.

The mechanics are pretty decent, especially when you realise they have to be incorporated into the overall game.

I don't feel it's been all that well incorporated into the main game.

You just have to use the right gear for the right missions, especially relative to the difficulty. You also have to apply brain. I agree on one thing though, the oppressor is currently lacklustre, especially compared to the other Manticore weapons.

Difficulty has never been the issue. If anything the on-foot content is considerably too easy, and for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Bottom Hat]

Well you could argue whether the expansion has been successful. They have had lower than expected sales. Nothing so far has really screamed success.

Console players wont yet know whether they like Odyssey until they play it. Could be a number of reasons why they are wanting Odyssey besides the fps. Just the ability to walk around is fairly satisfying to a lot of players. Once you play it for a couple weeks/months and the first impression wares thin, you start to critique the core elements of the expansion more. The fps element just isn't anything special, even when the expansion is designed to centre around it.

Are you making these conclusions based on your own perceptions though, about what you think people want, or what you want, or do you have statistical evidence to back up your assertions?

I'm not claiming this to be the best FPS ever - I'm just questioning the foundation on what you are building your arguments and conclusions upon. For I suspect they are perceptions from you and maybe a few others. People here often talk from the perspective of "the players" when there is no evidence to found such conclusions.

That's all I'm saying really.

 

[Peter Mannion]

Are you making these conclusions based on your own perceptions though, about what you think people want, or what you want, or do you have statistical evidence to back up your assertions?

I'm not claiming this to be the best FPS ever - I'm just questioning the foundation on what you are building your arguments and conclusions upon. For I suspect they are perceptions from you and maybe a few others. People here often talk from the perspective of "the players" when there is no evidence to found such conclusions.

That's all I'm saying really.

Pretty much most comments on this forum is assertions and opinions unless supported by evidence. Content creators often do surveys to assess the general opinion of players.

Maybe not from the most neutral of sources, but it is really telling that the barebones exo biology feature scores higher than the main centrepiece, FPS Combat. I assume this is because either the average player doesn't really care about fps combat in Elite (your Drew Wagars and old school players), or the average player might be interested in fps combat, but Odyssey doesn't really provide a good FPS experience. I think its a mix of both. Even the 17% that voted for FPS combat might not have voted for it because its good, just because it's best of the rest.

So by the end of this you have the space simmers that don't care for it and fps enjoyers that would've loved to have seen it done well, now not really care for it.

Its a bit like if COD Advanced Warfare, at the time, added space ships and space sim elements, but done do poorly that space simmers don't really play it. The main fps players dont really care about it because it just isn't their thing. So who is this for? The select few outliers that just don't happen to not sit in either of these categories?

Like I said, it makes no sense for Fdev to have designed this intentionally for it to be a backseat feature, therefore they must've just messed it up or just don't really know how to make a decent shooter. The lack of damage multipliers on shields, the lack of resistances, the bullet sponges, the quick shield regen to 50%, the "Lasers for shields, bullets for bodies", the constant ammo sinks, the high grind wall, the poor weapon "customisation", the 1 press of a button health packs. Its all things that you don't see in most multiplayer FPS games because it makes for very poor gameplay, and that is evident, especially with on foot PvP ...

 

[Mavsy 81]

therefore they must've just messed it

Its not a terrible first attempt, they didnt include weapon sway or a few other fundamentals of fps shooters so obviously a learning process.
It just needs tweaking IMO...and honestly in the opinion of every review ive seen ever.

 

[Peter Mannion]

They really aren't to be fair. As someone who played a lot of odyssey content recently, and has played a lot of shooters, i am enjoying it more and more as i learn the totally different principles and mechanics behind a new game mode.

You just have to use the right gear for the right missions, especially relative to the difficulty. You also have to apply brain. I agree on one thing though, the oppressor is currently lacklustre, especially compared to the other Manticore weapons.

The mechanics are pretty decent, especially when you realise they have to be incorporated into the overall game.

Killing players and NPC should be quick in FPS games. Its a race to see who can get the other persons health to 0. Even in slower paced FPS games like Arma, in a 1v1 situation all it takes is a couple shots. In Siege a headshot is pretty much an insta-kill on most weapons. It makes for realistic, fast paced, tense and rewarding gameplay when you hit the headshot or you have the quickest reaction time. It forces you to use cover and think about your movements. Elite's fps doesnt require any of that, it can take minutes to kill another player instead of seconds. Everything is just backwards and isn't rewarding. Im finding myself searching for ammo more than in any other game, Im firing missiles at enemies faces and it just takes down their shields. Any other game and an impact grenade to the face will insta-kill ... not in Elite, you require 2 to the face in quick succession! Its not normal to have to reload several times when in a 1v1 situation ... not in Elite, you can run out of ammo before your enemy is dead.

It is just really mediocre fps design, to the point where I am actually embarrassed to recommend this expansion to some FPS players I know.

 

[Rat Catcher]

including this "small proportion of players" we have defined.

No, of which you insist on defdining, without any source to refer to, just your own opinion (not that opinions are wrong, just individual, rather than universal)

Content creators often do surveys to assess the general opinion of players.

Well, of their visitors, certainly.

Killing players and NPC should be quick in FPS games

In your opinion?

 

[Factabulous]

Elite's fps doesnt require any of that, it can take minutes to kill another player instead of seconds

Have you even played? Bizarre.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Have you even played? Bizarre.

Maybe guidance has been given to the expansion by Yamiks or something?

 

[Ryox]

Personally after doing 4 combat CG and played other competitive shooters, Odyssey PvP gunplay is extra well balanced to me.

 

[Bottom Hat]

Maybe guidance has been given to the expansion by Yamiks or something?

I get the impression that the reply to me was wholly from the same area, hence just ignoring it really. Can't argue with that quality of statistical evidence...

 

[Morbad]

Haven fought enough CMDRs outside of the alpha to get a real feel for the balance yet...it's probably good enough in ultra focused scenarios like CZs...but irrespective of balance, it's no where near as enjoyable as most of the other shooters I've tolerated for even a fraction of the time. My biggest issue is that it tries to copy the arena/tactical shooter experience, adds some of my least favorite aspects of the ship based gameplay, then barely integrates the combat into the wider whole.

I have no idea how popular or successful EDO or it's FPS experience is. All I know is that it feels like multiple nested context defying absurdities (I can't see the path that connects the setting's constraints with the actual gameplay constraints, and I highly doubt there is one) that don't amount to what I personally consider a good experience.

Amazingly enough, I don't entirely dislike playing it, but I know I'd like it a lot more if it were changed in any of a variety of ways.

 

[Ryox]

Haven fought enough CMDRs outside of the alpha to get a real feel for the balance yet...it's probably good enough in ultra focused scenarios like CZs...but irrespective of balance, it's no where near as enjoyable as most of the other shooters I've tolerated for even a fraction of the time. My biggest issue is that it tries to copy the arena/tactical shooter experience, adds some of my least favorite aspects of the ship based gameplay, then barely integrates the combat into the wider whole.

I have no idea how popular or successful EDO or it's FPS experience is. All I know is that it feels like multiple nested context defying absurdities (I can't see the path that connects the setting's constraints with the actual gameplay constraints, and I highly doubt there is one) that don't amount to what I personally consider a good experience.

Amazingly enough, I don't entirely dislike playing it, but I know I'd like it a lot more if it were changed in any of a variety of ways.

Sounds like a pretty fair summary of the current state of OD on-foot combat to me. I would say that OD showcases amazingly good ingredients but the overall recipe / mix / balance is still a huge work-in-progress.

 

[DwightFright]

I'm glad there's been a lot of discussion here, just to clarify my points;

The oppressor being weak was just my example for weapon balance, basic enemies that require a full magazine to put down would be considered bullet sponges in any other shooter, so why would the shooter component in elite be different?

If the kinetic rifle is going to be balanced so it can't break through shields in a full magazine (meaning you need a plasma/laser sidearm or second weapon) then why would default weapon switch be so slow as to give enemies ample time to regen shields?

I personally really dislike the engineering for personal weapons, as most good FPS games will use attachments and other things that give you visual satisfaction and customisation (extended magazines, new sights, etc), so spending hours and hours hoarding little pickups for little more than slight performance increases is disheartening.

As for balancing engineering, why balance the game around players having engineered equipment when a player won't have it for many hours of play? If there were multiple difficulties of NPC's I could see that, the same way NPC ships have varying levels, but I have only ever seen minor differences in NPC shield and health levels..

I mean, let's be honest, does anyone really think Odyssey's shooter is as good as even like, halo: combat evolved? I get it's not the same experience they're going for, but that game is like 20 years old and has better flow.

 

[Rat Catcher]

I mean, let's be honest, does anyone really think Odyssey's shooter is as good as even like, halo: combat evolved?

How good are the stealth missions, or single assassination missions in Halo: Combat Evolved?

 

[Factabulous]

I'm glad there's been a lot of discussion here, just to clarify my points;

The oppressor being weak was just my example for weapon balance, basic enemies that require a full magazine to put down would be considered bullet sponges in any other shooter, so why would the shooter component in elite be different?

If the kinetic rifle is going to be balanced so it can't break through shields in a full magazine (meaning you need a plasma/laser sidearm or second weapon) then why would default weapon switch be so slow as to give enemies ample time to regen shields?

I personally really dislike the engineering for personal weapons, as most good FPS games will use attachments and other things that give you visual satisfaction and customisation (extended magazines, new sights, etc), so spending hours and hours hoarding little pickups for little more than slight performance increases is disheartening.

As for balancing engineering, why balance the game around players having engineered equipment when a player won't have it for many hours of play? If there were multiple difficulties of NPC's I could see that, the same way NPC ships have varying levels, but I have only ever seen minor differences in NPC shield and health levels..

I mean, let's be honest, does anyone really think Odyssey's shooter is as good as even like, halo: combat evolved? I get it's not the same experience they're going for, but that game is like 20 years old and has better flow.

You need to come to terms with the fact this is a DLC on Elite Dangerous, not a new FPS to compete with Doom / Halo etc. So I can't say I was surprised it has Laser / Kinetic used the way it does, that's similar to the rest of ED. Or be surprised that it uses engineers they way the rest of the game does, it's fitting in with the existing game. If it was based on Halo Infinite then it really would be the 'FPS bolted onto ED' which people accuse it of.

You should play it with an open mind - it's great fun.

 

[B1rdy]

Yeah my theory is that they balanced the game around G3.

Ah, i just bought most things at G3... no point starting at G1 when you can buy G3 off the bat.

But how stupid would that be? Considering they would render G1-2 obsolete (i.e. their own work) and it would render the theoretical variety of the game world obsolete. It would beg the question, why aren't there any specificly designed locations to provide a properly balanced scenarios?

There are various ways to bring the community together.

Like design and create a game so badly, the community has to make it playable? That is some aspiring goal!
Man, sometimes I get the notion FDev could serve you a turd and you would thank them for it being not cold.

Well, Frontier no doubt know what players are doing in their game and adjust their priorities to match.

Right, like when they introduced Fleet Carriers or presented the insta-ship-transfer option or CQC?

 

[DwightFright]

How good are the stealth missions, or single assassination missions in Halo: Combat Evolved?

In the spirit of constructive discussion, I'll assume you didn't intentionally miss my point.

Splinter cell did stealth better (19 years ago, yes I know it's third person) halo did shield/health fps better.

There is an almost infinite amount of games that have done every aspect and thinkable configuration of FPS games better. The amount of history and resources to draw from is astounding. So why shouldn't we expect games to perform at least as well as games that set benchmarks in the field? No one was expecting a ground breaking shooter in Odyssey, just one that doesn't perform WORSE than a generic FPS should in 2021.