Shooter Mechanics

In the spirit of constructive discussion, I'll assume you didn't intentionally miss my point.

Splinter cell did stealth better (19 years ago, yes I know it's third person) halo did shield/health fps better.

There is an almost infinite amount of games that have done every aspect and thinkable configuration of FPS games better. The amount of history and resources to draw from is astounding. So why shouldn't we expect games to perform at least as well as games that set benchmarks in the field? No one was expecting a ground breaking shooter in Odyssey, just one that doesn't perform WORSE than a generic FPS should in 2021.
Maybe as only a portion of the expansion is actually FPS? Such a dismissal of the expansion as "FPS" should also perhaps be applied to calling base game a space shooter, surely? As the FPS portion of EDO is principally in CZ...
Just as a constructive comment, naturally.
 
Maybe as only a portion of the expansion is actually FPS? Such a dismissal of the expansion as "FPS" should also perhaps be applied to calling base game a space shooter, surely? As the FPS portion of EDO is principally in CZ...
Just as a constructive comment, naturally.
That's fine, but my criticism lies mostly with the FPS part of the expansion.

It's fine that there's other features but being an on foot shooter was a huge part of the pre-launch marketing and why myself, and a lot of other people were interested.

Personally, I think they just tried to stick too much to "elite ship combat but on foot" and not "what FPS players like".. which just made.. a not good FPS. Definitely not beyond redemption, but the moments I've enjoyed don't stem from playing the FPS, just exploring and looking at stuff on foot. The actual combat ends up feeling more like a chore that I have to do in between landing at a station and enjoying the view.
 
In the spirit of constructive discussion, I'll assume you didn't intentionally miss my point.

Splinter cell did stealth better (19 years ago, yes I know it's third person) halo did shield/health fps better.

There is an almost infinite amount of games that have done every aspect and thinkable configuration of FPS games better. The amount of history and resources to draw from is astounding. So why shouldn't we expect games to perform at least as well as games that set benchmarks in the field? No one was expecting a ground breaking shooter in Odyssey, just one that doesn't perform WORSE than a generic FPS should in 2021.

Why are you comparing an on rails stealth game, with a FPS mode in a space sim that has stealth features?

Makes zero sense.
 
Personally, I think they just tried to stick too much to "elite ship combat but on foot" and not "what FPS players like".. which just made.. a not good FPS
Are not "good FPS" games dedicated to say, just FPS rather than a variety of tasks?

It is fine that you consider it to be a FPS and a poor one, that is your opinion.

My opinion of the FPS portion of the EDO expansion is directly opposite to your own, it has much more engaging gameply that the FPS games I've played over the last 30-odd years.
 
Killing players and NPC should be quick in FPS games. Its a race to see who can get the other persons health to 0. Even in slower paced FPS games like Arma, in a 1v1 situation all it takes is a couple shots. In Siege a headshot is pretty much an insta-kill on most weapons. It makes for realistic, fast paced, tense and rewarding gameplay when you hit the headshot or you have the quickest reaction time. It forces you to use cover and think about your movements. Elite's fps doesnt require any of that, it can take minutes to kill another player instead of seconds. Everything is just backwards and isn't rewarding. Im finding myself searching for ammo more than in any other game, Im firing missiles at enemies faces and it just takes down their shields. Any other game and an impact grenade to the face will insta-kill ... not in Elite, you require 2 to the face in quick succession! Its not normal to have to reload several times when in a 1v1 situation ... not in Elite, you can run out of ammo before your enemy is dead.

It is just really mediocre fps design, to the point where I am actually embarrassed to recommend this expansion to some FPS players I know.

Why should killing NPC's be quick?

Where is the rulebook?

Its 2000 years in the future, lets at least pretend soldiers would last longer than they do today given the right equipment.

Also, you are referencing siege, a dedicated PVP FPS. Hilariously, siege is not that good of an actual shooter. It had dodgy hitreg for years, and the characters have zero inertia. It has taken years of refining to reach the state its in now. Yet even now, its not the best.

Odyssey is not a dedicated FPS shooter nor has it had years, or even a year.
 
Are not "good FPS" games dedicated to say, just FPS rather than a variety of tasks?

It is fine that you consider it to be a FPS and a poor one, that is your opinion.

My opinion of the FPS portion of the EDO expansion is directly opposite to your own, it has much more engaging gameply that the FPS games I've played over the last 30-odd years.
Considering it is a predominantly PvE shooter, games like old Halo: CE, or far cry 3 come to mind. From purely a health/damage balance really. Enemies come, you get to blast them down, some are tougher, but you're never usually stuck grinding down shield pools (which also regenerate pretty fast).
 
Considering it is a predominantly PvE shooter, games like old Halo: CE, or far cry 3 come to mind. From purely a health/damage balance really. Enemies come, you get to blast them down, some are tougher, but you're never usually stuck grinding down shield pools (which also regenerate pretty fast).

They are also dedicated FPS games that dont have an entire galaxy of possible ground locations, or an entire other more predominant game mode to develop, update and balance.

People complaining about Odyssey combat as too "bullet spongey", too many reloads, too much to think about basically, then using modern day kid teenage shooters as comparison. Its future combat. Look at Dune for another example. HALO is aimed for kids, lets be honest. Its combat is not even in the running, nothing about it is "authentic" like Odyssey combat which at least tried to stay realistic within its setting.

What i know after playing a lot of Odyssey and finding it enjoyable, even as someone who has played A LOT of shooters over several decades:

Pick the right gear/setup for the right mission.

Going threat 4, with sub par gear will get you rekt.

Going threat 3, with good gear and no brain will get you rekt also.

Doing anything, and being overconfident, will get you rekt.

Its not a typical FPS shooter, its something else entirely. Its a high tech, realistic, low gravity adventure simulation. The mechanics are fine. People just need to learn how to play it cautiously and approach things the right way.
 
(...) then using modern day kid teenage shooters as comparison. (...) HALO is aimed for kids, lets be honest. Its combat is not even in the running, nothing about it is "authentic" like Odyssey combat which at least tried to stay realistic within its setting.

(...)

Its not a typical FPS shooter, its something else entirely. Its a high tech, realistic, low gravity adventure simulation. The mechanics are fine. People just need to learn how to play it cautiously and approach things the right way.
I never liked Halo, but it's not aimed at kids and the "modern day kid teenage shooters" aren't either. I can attest to that, because I play them as well.

And in my opinion the FPS part of Odyssey isn't that authentic/realistic (for example the kinetic weapons) and fairly typical, albeit a bit barebones (in particular I find the AI very disappointing). The mechanics aren't the worst I've ever seen (despite their simplicity), but there's certainly a lot of room for improvement.

Obviously I agree with the part where you need to learn how to play it, as that applies to any game.
 
Elite's fps doesnt require any of that, it can take minutes to kill another player instead of seconds.
To be fair... the rest of Elite is like that too, for better or worse. At the very least Elite is internally consistent with elongated TTKs 🤷‍♂️

I personally really dislike the engineering for personal weapons, as most good FPS games will use attachments and other things that give you visual satisfaction and customisation (extended magazines, new sights, etc), so spending hours and hours hoarding little pickups for little more than slight performance increases is disheartening.
The execution of the Engineering system in Odyssey has left a bad taste in my mouth; weapon customization via attachments has been a thing for quite a while in the FPS genre, and I would have liked a similar system for optics / barrel attachments / magazine mods / etc. for our weapons in Odyssey, with the more archaic adjustments (such as fire rate, projectile velocity, improved handling via weight reductions) left to the current system without the need to completely scrap our equipment if we change our minds about a particular mod.

As for balancing engineering, why balance the game around players having engineered equipment when a player won't have it for many hours of play? If there were multiple difficulties of NPC's I could see that, the same way NPC ships have varying levels, but I have only ever seen minor differences in NPC shield and health levels..
I believe the expectation is that players will eventually get to G5 with all four ModSlots™️ used up on all of their equipment, similar to Thargoid encounters / soloing Wing Assassination missions in the base game strongly encouraging a fully Engineered ship.

I mean, let's be honest, does anyone really think Odyssey's shooter is as good as even like, halo: combat evolved? I get it's not the same experience they're going for, but that game is like 20 years old and has better flow.
Halo: CE had its share of balancing issues. The Magnum was the go-to weapon for multiplayer and few other weapons could challenge it reliably.

How good are the stealth missions, or single assassination missions in Halo: Combat Evolved?
The third campaign level Truth and Reconciliation was technically a stealth mission... and there is a limited stealth system in the game (backsmacks are silent insta-kills, you could sneak around sleeping Grunts, etc.) :p

I understand what you're saying though - there are no true stealth / sabotage or assassination missions like there are in EDO.

Why should killing NPC's be quick?

Where is the rulebook?

Its 2000 years in the future, lets at least pretend soldiers would last longer than they do today given the right equipment.
Weapons would have evolved to defeat new and improved defenses over time as well.

Also, you are referencing siege, a dedicated PVP FPS. Hilariously, siege is not that good of an actual shooter. It had dodgy hitreg for years, and the characters have zero inertia. It has taken years of refining to reach the state its in now. Yet even now, its not the best.
One of the things I'm grateful for in EDO on the PVE side is the hit registration working almost flawlessly for me. I've seen it break down in Halo Infinite on more than one occasion and it is maddening when it does. Entire rockets sometimes just go POOF! and disappear from existence.

I can't say anything about EDO's hitreg in PVP - haven't done any of that due to ongoing framerate issues. I'd be curious about how it compares to Infinite's...

Its combat is not even in the running, nothing about it is "authentic" like Odyssey combat which at least tried to stay realistic within its setting.
Its not a typical FPS shooter, its something else entirely. Its a high tech, realistic, low gravity adventure simulation. The mechanics are fine. People just need to learn how to play it cautiously and approach things the right way.
...

Source: https://youtu.be/2ndDqhWoK0g


I'll have to hard disagree on that "realistic" part. (Edit: Forgot this! :p)
 
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you're never usually stuck grinding down shield pools
That is true, I'm not. Do you play EDO, of just use 2nd hand information?

There is a small shield pool even on G5 engineered player suits, which can be removed very quickly, leaving the suit equally as easily dispatched.

As PvE play it is even simpler... Grinding down shield pools is an amazing misnomer, although I suppose using an unmodified G1 weapon in a High CZ (and choosing the wrong type) might feel slower.

But, as actual combat is still a minor part of EDO, it is easily skipped of one finds it trying or tiresome, surely?
 
I'll have to hard disagree on that "realistic" part.

I mean, that video looks like some heavily engineered high level gear. In which case, i think that is realistic. Its like killing enemies in a max engineered FDL. I like to think in this galaxy, there are dudes around with enough money and tech backing to be basically super soldiers/fighters.

Just like sci fi books by Peter Hamilton, Richard Morgan etc etc.

Also, look at Takeshi Kovacs book 2 for stuff about vaccuum combat and specialists like Carrera's Wedge vaccum commandoes. Basically something i feel is a factor in this game with Low G environments and jump packs as well as increased jump engineering.

Its not a typical FPS. Realistic is a term i use loosely, a better term would be authentic. Just like ED is a authentic space sim. It cant be realistic as we aren't 2000 years away, but if you imagine how realistic it could be, it seems possible. Which is exactly what i mean about EDO combat.

As for our previous interaction, no hard feelings CMDR. 07

EDIT: also as for the video, with G2 gear i can net 8-12 million credits per high conflict zone without dying. Nothing like as swift as that guy though.
 
I never liked Halo, but it's not aimed at kids and the "modern day kid teenage shooters" aren't either. I can attest to that, because I play them as well.

And in my opinion the FPS part of Odyssey isn't that authentic/realistic (for example the kinetic weapons) and fairly typical, albeit a bit barebones (in particular I find the AI very disappointing). The mechanics aren't the worst I've ever seen (despite their simplicity), but there's certainly a lot of room for improvement.

Obviously I agree with the part where you need to learn how to play it, as that applies to any game.
I play HALO too, i can still recognise its at younger people, or at least the early ones were.
 
Pretty much most comments on this forum is assertions and opinions unless supported by evidence. Content creators often do surveys to assess the general opinion of players.

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Maybe not from the most neutral of sources, but it is really telling that the barebones exo biology feature scores higher than the main centrepiece, FPS Combat. I assume this is because either the average player doesn't really care about fps combat in Elite (your Drew Wagars and old school players), or the average player might be interested in fps combat, but Odyssey doesn't really provide a good FPS experience. I think its a mix of both. Even the 17% that voted for FPS combat might not have voted for it because its good, just because it's best of the rest.

So by the end of this you have the space simmers that don't care for it and fps enjoyers that would've loved to have seen it done well, now not really care for it.

Its a bit like if COD Advanced Warfare, at the time, added space ships and space sim elements, but done do poorly that space simmers don't really play it. The main fps players dont really care about it because it just isn't their thing. So who is this for? The select few outliers that just don't happen to not sit in either of these categories?

Like I said, it makes no sense for Fdev to have designed this intentionally for it to be a backseat feature, therefore they must've just messed it up or just don't really know how to make a decent shooter. The lack of damage multipliers on shields, the lack of resistances, the bullet sponges, the quick shield regen to 50%, the "Lasers for shields, bullets for bodies", the constant ammo sinks, the high grind wall, the poor weapon "customisation", the 1 press of a button health packs. Its all things that you don't see in most multiplayer FPS games because it makes for very poor gameplay, and that is evident, especially with on foot PvP ...
I'm an 'old school' player from back on the C64, I'm enjoying the FPS parts. Again, the comparison is apples to oranges, the FPS elements are their own thing and you point out many unique features about it but yet the general accusation is that it's a generic FPS, and your argument is that because it doesn't do things like these generic FPS games, it's 'nothing special' and therefore bad, even though it's doing some new things that tie into the Elite universe. Is it bad because these features aren't special? Who to? And making it more like a generic FPS is making it better? To be fair, I think there is room for improvement, but that could be said of any game, and static map shooters are nowhere in the same league of scale as Elite, what we have, even if 'nothing special' is pretty decent and as with many games of this type it will continue to find its footing (pun intended) as players get used to the mechanics and balance requirements and pertinent improvements can be incorporated as this part of the game matures.

Also, posting a pic of a poll from a known ED agitator for clicks merchant is disingenuous at best and only serves to take away from any credibility your argument may actually hold.
 
Why are you comparing an on rails stealth game, with a FPS mode in a space sim that has stealth features?

Makes zero sense.

There is no reason the stealth mechanisms that work in the former could not work in the latter. Same with comparing to dedicated shooters.

Anyway, I've used Deus Ex as a comparison...multiple gameplay types and relatively open settings, as well as being more than twenty years old. It still does most of what EDO does better than EDO, and does all sorts of fun stuff EDO doesn't even attempt.

Its not a typical FPS. Realistic is a term i use loosely, a better term would be authentic. Just like ED is a authentic space sim. It cant be realistic as we aren't 2000 years away, but if you imagine how realistic it could be, it seems possible. Which is exactly what i mean about EDO combat.

I don't feel the on foot stuff for EDO is even remotely authentic or plausible, given the setting. The damage done by on foot and ship based weapons are using the same scale, yet the ship based weapons are orders of magnitude less potent per unit of volume/mass. This makes zero sense and is exactly the opposite of what one would expect in a setting that has a cube-square law, and no setting without such a fundamental attribute can be anything short of magically surrealistic to the point of barely being comprehensible. There are things in EDO that would not fly in my AD&D Planescape game because they are so far fetched.

Projectile velocities are another example. Energy delivered by a kinetic projectile is directly related to it's mass and velocity, with velocity being the dominant factor because energy increases with the square of velocity, but only linearly with mass. Kinetic projectiles in EDO cannot be massive; the 24-36 round magazine for the Karma P-15 sidearm is very small and my CMDR can carry upwards of a thousand rounds of ammo with some weapon combinations. Even if these are extremely dense caseless projectiles, the velocity has to be relatively high to give them energy competitive with projectiles fired from weapons designed before Christ was born, let alone with the ship mounted weapons they actually out-damage in game. Yet, the projectile velocities are obviously extremely low. From what I'm being shown, I would not expect these projectiles to reliably puncture human skin, let alone inflict mortal injuries. There also doesn't seem to be any projectile drop, irrespective of gravity, which is something else I find very hard to ignore with projectiles slow enough to track visually.

The whole idea that switching weapons in combat, to deal with a single infantry foe, could ever be authentic is absurd to me. There is no successful weapons designer or arms procurement department in history that would accept designs for infantry weapons that required one weapon to penetrate personal protection and another to kill the person wearing it. Expecting that to be viable in actual combat is nuts. Inevitably, some form of compromise would be adopted or different kinds of weapons suitably integrated, rather than expect discrete weapon systems to be swapped to handle individual targets in the heat of combat.

There are countless other issues, from running endurance, to battery capacity, to the inventory system, to the indestructibility and non-interactivity of environments, to NPC behavior, to suits reactions to cold temperatures on nearly airless worlds, etc and so forth that crap all over my sense of authenticity, verisimilitude, and immersion, making my EDO experience, in combat or otherwise, far less enjoyable than it could be.

Radically augmented capabilities are fine and don't disrupt my sense of verisimilitude in the slightest. If anything our CMDRs mobility is significantly worse than what feels plausible to me, given the context of the rest of the setting. However, the Engineering stuff and scaling is problematic. There is no conceivable augmentation that could be done to a rifle that would double the energy it delivers to a target, per projectile, with no downsides, unless radically different propellant technologies were involved, which itself doesn't make sense if better propellants are known to be available. And even if this was the case, it would be reflected in dramatically different projectile velocities...but a G5 Karma has the same projectile velocity as a G1 and certainly doesn't have less ammo capacity than a stock weapon. Blatantly defying conservation of mass/energy, without an extremely good explanation, is the quickest way to upend my suspension of disbelief.

On it's own, there are too many absurdities in EDO's infantry combat for me to take it seriously. As an extension of the Elite setting, it's even worse, because it ignores those precedents and establish constraints too...the energy-drink sized rocket coming out of my CMDRs three-shot shoulder-fired weapon doing more damage than the man-sized rocket coming out of his ship is hard to ignore.
 
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I think EDO fps combat rubs many of us in the wrong way is because it's more "arcadey and gun-ho aproach alike the UT/Quake era" is the complete opposite approach of the somewhat realistic and thought out flight model.

There's a dissonance between game design choices that makes it look that they were made for 2 completely different games.
 
That is true, I'm not. Do you play EDO, of just use 2nd hand information?

There is a small shield pool even on G5 engineered player suits, which can be removed very quickly, leaving the suit equally as easily dispatched.

As PvE play it is even simpler... Grinding down shield pools is an amazing misnomer, although I suppose using an unmodified G1 weapon in a High CZ (and choosing the wrong type) might feel slower.

But, as actual combat is still a minor part of EDO, it is easily skipped of one finds it trying or tiresome, surely?
I can assure you I've been putting my own time in, mostly using level 2 gear currently. End up using the executioner primarily due to the 1-2 hit kills.

I think there's not a lot left to say as we've come down to points that are a matter of opinion.

Hopefully they keep improving the game in both our favours.

All the best
 
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