General / Off-Topic mRNA future?

There are plenty valid criticisms and caveats surrounding the current mRNA vaccines (especially with regard to their logistical and storage requirements) and the processes behind their developments (mainly with regard to the interaction between big pharma, intellectual property, and politics), but the overwhelming bulk of popular opposition to these vaccines, and to broader mRNA biotech applications in general, is nonsense rooted in ignorance and/or willful misinterpretation. Those fallacies are not credible and do not deserve to be treated as such. Blatant misinformation is no basis for debate.

To me Robert Malone seems to be a decent person yet he and his peers (as he claims) are completely silenced. I listened to the Rogan interview on Rumble and it was pretty interesting.
Especially the part when he claimed that after vaccination the immune system is vulnerable for a short period... and here we have a 40y/o ex-olympian who is in hospital in critical condition (probably he won't make it) after he got the Jansen jab.

The only way to improve the quality of popular opposition is to allow people like Malone to speak out, otherwise people are being pushed to the fringes.
Again, my awareness on these vaccines were raised by my brother-in-law who is a PhD pharmacist working in the research field, he still strongly advises against jabbing the kids which I will duly follow.
 
To me Robert Malone seems to be a decent person yet he and his peers (as he claims) are completely silenced. I listened to the Rogan interview on Rumble and it was pretty interesting.
Especially the part when he claimed that after vaccination the immune system is vulnerable for a short period... and here we have a 40y/o ex-olympian who is in hospital in critical condition (probably he won't make it) after he got the Jansen jab.

The only way to improve the quality of popular opposition is to allow people like Malone to speak out, otherwise people are being pushed to the fringes.
Again, my awareness on these vaccines were raised by my brother-in-law who is a PhD pharmacist working in the research field, he still strongly advises against jabbing the kids which I will duly follow.

I suspect Dr. Malone has been discredited for a simple reason; many of his claims are baseless, grossly exaggerated, or outright counterfactual. Just going off what he's posted in his own blog, for example, he's still pushing ivermectin and still referencing studies with serious flaws to back the protocols that recommend it. Many of his criticisms of vaccination strategies also highlight supposedly flawed assumptions that were never made, accuse sound conclusions of being unfounded assumptions, and omit what is probably the main rationale behind what he's criticizing. I don't find myself disagreeing with all of his assertions, but many of them are impossible to take seriously, and many of his associates in organizations like the FLCCC and Unity Project have blatant contradictions of interests and/or are outright swindlers.

Even if I take Dr. Malone's statements of motive and intent at face value, that doesn't justify his conclusions or the methods he's used to reach them. He has a philisophical issue with what he sees going on, but rather than arguing philosophy, is trying to attack science-based evidence, and has aligned himself with some nakedly self-serving people to do it. The only one responsible for Dr. Malone being pushed to the fringes is Dr. Malone.

That some vaccinated people are dying of COVID is neither new nor surprising, but they are outliers, and their existence does nothing to detract from the fact that, statistically, one is much safer vaccinated than vaccinated. Also, the J&J/Janssen vaccine isn't an mRNA vaccine...not that there are no fatal breakthrough cases of those with the mRNA vaccines.

I'm not sure why you think your brother-in-law's conclusions would be better than the broader consensus of people in more relevant fields, or what about Robert Malone convinces you of his decency, but personal feelings about or relationships with claimants aren't a replacement for evidence. A fallacy from a saint is still a fallacy, and a fact from a monster still a fact.
 
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There are plenty valid criticisms and caveats surrounding the current mRNA vaccines (especially with regard to their logistical and storage requirements) and the processes behind their developments (mainly with regard to the interaction between big pharma, intellectual property, and politics), but the overwhelming bulk of popular opposition to these vaccines, and to broader mRNA biotech applications in general, is nonsense rooted in ignorance and/or willful misinterpretation. Those fallacies are not credible and do not deserve to be treated as such. Blatant misinformation is no basis for debate.
There always was an antivax sentiment but it was covered by general common sense. Gene stuff getting to the front during the pandemic brought the crazy stuff to the surface and many unsure of the new technology came in contact with it. It is similar to the conspiracy nonsense and fits right in to the pattern of widespread disinformation.
 
Looked into mRNA vaccines for children. Found this-
Robert Malone debunked:

On a personal note, I'm tired of the onslaught of false information. Tired of arguing about it, tired of filtering out myself. It would be nice to think that we're all in this together, just trying to help each other out. I need as much help as I can get.

The common enemy is ignorance.

It's completely possible to be educated, intelligent, and still fall victim to convincing disinformation.

Paul Marik started off as a respected clinical professor, and is now resigned because he can't get past his disinformation issues with ivermectin. It can happen to anybody. It probably happened to Malone. Good brains that we need in this fight are casualties of it.

Once we go down a rabbit hole, get invested in the mythology, it's hard to come back. Everybody wants to fix this problem we are under, and the impetus might be shorting out critical thinking somewhat.
 
I suspect Dr. Malone has been discredited for a simple reason; many of his claims are baseless, grossly exaggerated, or outright counterfactual. Just going off what he's posted in his own blog, for example, he's still pushing ivermectin and still referencing studies with serious flaws to back the protocols that recommend it. Many of his criticisms of vaccination strategies also highlight supposedly flawed assumptions that were never made, accuse sound conclusions of being unfounded assumptions, and omit what is probably the main rationale behind what he's criticizing. I don't find myself disagreeing with all of his assertions, but many of them are impossible to take seriously, and many of his associates in organizations like the FLCCC and Unity Project have blatant contradictions of interests and/or are outright swindlers.

Even if I take Dr. Malone's statements of motive and intent at face value, that doesn't justify his conclusions or the methods he's used to reach them. He has a philisophical issue with what he sees going on, but rather than arguing philosophy, is trying to attack science-based evidence, and has aligned himself with some nakedly self-serving people to do it. The only one responsible for Dr. Malone being pushed to the fringes is Dr. Malone.

That some vaccinated people are dying of COVID is neither new nor surprising, but they are outliers, and their existence does nothing to detract from the fact that, statistically, one is much safer vaccinated than vaccinated. Also, the J&J/Janssen vaccine isn't an mRNA vaccine...not that there are no fatal breakthrough cases of those with the mRNA vaccines.

I'm not sure why you think your brother-in-law's conclusions would be better than the broader consensus of people in more relevant fields, or what about Robert Malone convinces you of his decency, but personal feelings about or relationships with claimants aren't a replacement for evidence. A fallacy from a saint is still a fallacy, and a fact from a monster still a fact.

I prefer to listen to all sides and make conclusions according to that, especially as I'm not an expert of the field for sure - I am using a similar approach for years for searching information and so far it served me well. I think anyone who has lived through the casus-belli of the Iraq war should agree.

The only fact I can take for face value is that approval of these novel vaccines were fast tracked. As for the Malone interview, if you have listened to it, was mainly about the unknowns and that assumptions are taken as fact and anyone who debates it is being deplatformed - I think five years ago you would have been upset that free speech and debate is being curtailed, yet now it is acceptable because it is "useful" (not it isn't).

The conclusions I have drawn is a simple risk management. One of my kids got covid with mild symptoms, the others were tested negative a week after - yet it is a fallacy not to jab them with a fast tracked novel mRNA? Especially my daughters, when plenty of women report messed-up cycles?

There always was an antivax sentiment but it was covered by general common sense. Gene stuff getting to the front during the pandemic brought the crazy stuff to the surface and many unsure of the new technology came in contact with it. It is similar to the conspiracy nonsense and fits right in to the pattern of widespread disinformation.

Looked into mRNA vaccines for children. Found this-
Robert Malone debunked:

On a personal note, I'm tired of the onslaught of false information. Tired of arguing about it, tired of filtering out myself. It would be nice to think that we're all in this together, just trying to help each other out. I need as much help as I can get.

The common enemy is ignorance.

It's completely possible to be educated, intelligent, and still fall victim to convincing disinformation.

Paul Marik started off as a respected clinical professor, and is now resigned because he can't get past his disinformation issues with ivermectin. It can happen to anybody. It probably happened to Malone. Good brains that we need in this fight are casualties of it.

Once we go down a rabbit hole, get invested in the mythology, it's hard to come back. Everybody wants to fix this problem we are under, and the impetus might be shorting out critical thinking somewhat.

I was expecting to be labelled antivaxx, but not only I and my kids got all mandatory vaccinations, but I'd hazard a guess I have received more vaccines than all of you combined thanks to my trips to places like India, or South America. BTW also double-jabbed for covid.
This is just a prime example how a healthy debate and skepticism is out, only one sided indoctrination is allowed.

Anyway:
"Unsupported: There is no evidence that the spike protein generated by the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines causes permanent damage to organs and the immune system. "

Shouldn't be it the other way around, like there is evidence for instead of no evidence against?

Edit: BTW Robin, wasn't it you who hinted on that covid could be of lab origin based on its DNA, that it remained unchanged for decades? Do you still claim this opinion? Be careful where you side on this... :)
 
I prefer to listen to all sides and make conclusions according to that, especially as I'm not an expert of the field for sure - I am using a similar approach for years for searching information and so far it served me well. I think anyone who has lived through the casus-belli of the Iraq war should agree.

Not all sides are worthy of the same consideration.

As for the Malone interview, if you have listened to it, was mainly about the unknowns and that assumptions are taken as fact and anyone who debates it is being deplatformed - I think five years ago you would have been upset that free speech and debate is being curtailed, yet now it is acceptable because it is "useful" (not it isn't).

I haven't listened to the interview, but after skimming the transcript I can say that my assessment of Malone is distinctly more negative than it was when all I was going off was his own site, which was still riddled with misinformation. Most of what Malone is questioning isn't unknown, but he's presenting it as if it is, and that is exactly why he's discredited.

As for free speech, anyone can say anything they like, they just can't compel anyone else to give them a platform for it. No one is going to arrest Dr. Malone for peddling nonsense, unless his false claims eventually amount to defamation, false advertising, or a breach of contract. No government agency is going to shut down his blog. He can picket in the streets, rent billboard space, or put signs all over his yard...that's his right. However, Twitter and most media outlets are, or are owned by, corporations with full control over what content they host. They aren't democracies or governments. They are beholden to popular opinion, which as fickel as it is, is still generally resistant to overt falsehood...and the one's that aren't peddle it under the guise of being 'fair and balanced' or giving voice to dissenting opinion. However, again, not all opinions are valid, and dissent from fact or well substantiated expert consensus constitutes an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence.

This hasn't changed appreciably in the last five years, or even the last fifty. Ten years ago peddling Holocaust denial would have gotten one cancelled, and Dr. Malone is peddling things that are just as objectively false and probably much more dangerous.

The conclusions I have drawn is a simple risk management. One of my kids got covid with mild symptoms, the others were tested negative a week after - yet it is a fallacy not to jab them with a fast tracked novel mRNA? Especially my daughters, when plenty of women report messed-up cycles?

Yes.

Barring the extremely young, where there is still insufficient information for a recommendation, these vaccines are far less likely to be individually harmful than even an extremely mild case of COVID, perhaps even a completely asymptomatic infection (which can still result in complications). Much more importantly, especially for school age children, vaccination reduces their ability to be a transmission vector.

As for menstrual cycles...there is no reason to expect any harm to fertility, or lasting effects. If there were, we'd have mountains of evidence for it after a year of these vaccines, even without looking for it. Of course, we've started to look more closely, just in case.

Anyway:
"Unsupported: There is no evidence that the spike protein generated by the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines causes permanent damage to organs and the immune system. "

Shouldn't be it the other way around, like there is evidence for instead of no evidence against?

I'm not sure what's wrong with that statement as written. We have no compelling evidence that mRNA vaccines damage organs or the immune system. If you want proof of impossibility, you have an impossibly useless standard. To satisfy it, we'd need to comprehensively evaluate every single vaccine recipient. The decades of research, the many trials that have been conducted, and the full year of massive deployment, are way more than enough to satisfy any rational standard of safety.

One of the most fundamental logical failings of the extreme skeptics is that we somehow developed all this stuff without having any idea how any of it works...which is obviously not the case. We (or at least the expert subset developing these vaccines) have significant understanding of the mechanisms involved and the interactions that are likely to be possible. Otherwise, none of these would have ever made it to trials, let alone been approved, even for emergency use. Just as clearly, we cannot predict all outcomes, which is why we have trials and why we monitor results even after approval. The idea that there is some remotely common, glaring, issue with these vaccines, that hasn't been observed yet, is exceedingly far fetched. Billions of doses have been administered and the number of people that have been harmed by any of them is vanishingly small.

The only fact I can take for face value is that approval of these novel vaccines were fast tracked.

Even if you would have had a point a year ago (and it would have been a dubious one, even then), fussing over fast tracked approval at this point makes zero sense from the perspective of evaluating the safety or efficacy of these vaccines. These vaccines have been in actual use for as long as most complete Phase III trials would have taken, and have several orders of magnitude more recipients. Based on the actual results we have to this date, every one of these approved vaccines would have sailed through the most stringent of trials.
 
I was expecting to be labelled antivaxx, but not only I and my kids got all mandatory vaccinations, but I'd hazard a guess I have received more vaccines than all of you combined thanks to my trips to places like India, or South America. BTW also double-jabbed for covid.
This is just a prime example how a healthy debate and skepticism is out, only one sided indoctrination is allowed.

Anyway:
"Unsupported: There is no evidence that the spike protein generated by the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines causes permanent damage to organs and the immune system. "

Shouldn't be it the other way around, like there is evidence for instead of no evidence against?

Edit: BTW Robin, wasn't it you who hinted on that covid could be of lab origin based on its DNA, that it remained unchanged for decades? Do you still claim this opinion? Be careful where you side on this... :)

That was me.

There was a paper IIRC that compared mutation rates, and suggested that the virus was changing vastly more rapidly in the human population than it did jumping from precursor form in bats. Implying that sections of the genome (coding for viral envelope) never changed for years, until it went into humans, and then we saw 4 mutations in months, in that same real estate. That was suspicious. Suggested some cut n paste, rather than natural change over time.

There hasn't been any follow up or confirmation I know of since. Origin of virus is unknown, still.
By now, it's moot. We have multiple new versions, new problems to figure out. Not much time.

Before FLCCC got started, and Marik was still reputable, Ivermectin began to appear in his otherwise logical list of drugs. It was also me that posted his initial protocols. Marik wrote manuals we use in the ER.
I was unfamiliar with Ivermectin then, but open to considering it.

Since then, there has been much debunking. Studies with falsified data. Open fraud discovered.
Rather than abandoning the bad, and continuing to improve his ideas, he has doubled, tripled, and quadrupled down. Because he can't possibly be wrong. No no no.
This is bad form on a forum. It's a catastrophe if you are treating patients for real. So he wound up resigning his post.

Right now, there are people STILL getting Ivermectin where I live, from unsupervised GPs. And they are dying, going too late to hospital. This is happening because people(doctors) don't correct course.

There's nothing surprising with getting it wrong, but there is a real problem with humans not fixing errors. We just can't afford to form attachments to beliefs during a mass death event, preventing adaptation to new data.

Nobody thinks that you are antivax.

You're working through the same minefield we all are in. We're all being given bad information, by people who ought to know better, for various reasons. We are also getting good information. Ruthlessly false tagging is a way of life now.

It's definite that the need for vaccination goes up with age. The data in children is less clear. The disease was much less hazardous, so the odds of vaccines preventing someting bad start to approach the odds of causing something adverse. This calculus just got upended by Omicron. Paeds units are overflowing.

Long term outcomes are still unknown, but senescent cell surges have been documented, similar to recent findings in Down's syndrome. Some may get accelerated biological ageing, and a shortened lifespan. Fortunately, this is likely soon fixable. I think I've already done it with experimental drug protocols in my family, but cannot prove it.

Since we need 3 vaccine doses over a minimum of 12 to 18 weeks plus 2 more weeks for it to work, there frankly is not time to vaccinate people starting now. They will likely get Omicron before. We can watch this in progress @ millions/day.

This is not about winning/losing points in an argument, it's about what happens to our families. I would rather lose cheerfully all day long, as long as we could ensure their wellbeing. If we screw up, but they get through, that's OK too, I'll take it.
 
However, again, not all opinions are valid, and dissent from fact or well substantiated expert consensus constitutes an extraordinary claim requiring extraordinary evidence.

This is a potentially very dangerous path to go down on, I did mention Iraq exactly because at the time the claims for invasion were beyond doubt. There are only a handful of scientists who can claim enough knowledge to form opinion on this and Dr. Malone is one of them with decades of proven track record, he is not exactly like a chem trailer. He may be wrong on some things, but he should be given the benefit of doubt in each and every point. You are fortunate to be born in a country with free speech that you may feel as given - I did not (fortunately that has changed), and I believe it is possibly the most important aspect of modern advanced society.
Sure he wasn't silenced by gov't agencies, but select few corporations did so at a much greater effect - and I'd leave it there as these forums are strictly moderated on such matters too.

Yes.

Barring the extremely young, where there is still insufficient information for a recommendation, these vaccines are far less likely to be individually harmful than even an extremely mild case of COVID, perhaps even a completely asymptomatic infection (which can still result in complications). Much more importantly, especially for school age children, vaccination reduces their ability to be a transmission vector.

Long term tests and research last 5-10 years especially for new tech in healthcare, you may argue that millions got ther vaccine but the time is still not there, and in case of children the time frame is much narrower yet stakes are much higher - along with risks of covid much lower.
Look, I heave a lot of respect to you and it is apparent you have done your research. But the thing is that we are pretty far away from certainty and therefore everyone has to do their own risk assessment.
E.g. If I were 65+ and/or obese with chronic illnesses, I'd probably go for max vaccination with Pfizer and co.

Then when it comes to transmission, it seems that the primary benefit of vaccination is not avoiding getting infected, but avoiding severe symptoms. I think by now it seems evident that covid will infect everyone, look at what is happening in Denmark with its high vaccination rate.
Omicron overwhelming hospitals does not seem to be the case as it seems that it is less dangerous. So at the end it should become an individual decision weighing the options I believe.

You're working through the same minefield we all are in. We're all being given bad information, by people who ought to know better, for various reasons. We are also getting good information. Ruthlessly false tagging is a way of life now.

Well yes, and I mentioned your posts on that exactly for the same reason - it could be dangerous to post such information on some platforms.
You can't force trust in media and science, only free speech and transparency can do so. Once people are told that there are 'right' information and 'false' information, by definition it will sow doubt and do other nasty things.
To be honest I think the stakes are much higher than covid, the past 100 years brought incredible advances. My first gf's parents were both paralized by polio, theirs was the last genersation - I do hope these advances and trust will remain intact post covid...
 
To be honest I think the stakes are much higher than covid, the past 100 years brought incredible advances. My first gf's parents were both paralized by polio, theirs was the last genersation - I do hope these advances and trust will remain intact post covid...
And polio was eradicated by vaccines. There are people now claiming that vaccines never did anything. Is that right or wrong info? Or is that up for debate?
 
I did mention Iraq exactly because at the time the claims for invasion were beyond doubt.

There was plenty of doubt, and no evidence provided for one of the major claims justifying that action. I certainly never supported the invasion, and there were plenty of others that questioned it's justifications.

Anyway, I don't think the Iraq invasion is anywhere near as good an example for what's going on with those pushing for vaccination as it is for those pushing against it.

There are only a handful of scientists who can claim enough knowledge to form opinion on this and Dr. Malone is one of them with decades of proven track record, he is not exactly like a chem trailer.

I don't believe these assertions are accurate. Dr. Malone wasn't working alone, wasn't working in a vacuum, and hasn't published a major paper on the topic in more than twenty years. The mRNA field is relatively mature at this point and has moved on without him. There are likely thousands who can speak with more authority on the topic than Malone.

He may be wrong on some things, but he should be given the benefit of doubt in each and every point.

This wouldn't change much. Many of his most prominent claims are baseless, and are directly contradicted by available evidence.

You are fortunate to be born in a country with free speech that you may feel as given - I did not (fortunately that has changed), and I believe it is possibly the most important aspect of modern advanced society.
Sure he wasn't silenced by gov't agencies, but select few corporations did so at a much greater effect - and I'd leave it there as these forums are strictly moderated on such matters too.

Free speech has always been contingent on how far it falls from wider public opinion, even in societies that claim to place high value upon it. This is unfortunate, but it's not new.

What's going on with vaccine misinformation is an attempt to shape public opinion toward the fallacious by presenting fallacy as the equal of evidence based facts.

But the thing is that we are pretty far away from certainty and therefore everyone has to do their own risk assessment.

Nothing is certain, but the balance of probabilities is for vaccination, for essentially everyone, barring specific contraindication.

There are no known mechanisms that would allow these vaccines to be doing harm years after the fact. That doesn't categorically rule out the possibility of some as of yet inconceivable mechanism resulting in problems down the line, but it should be a major factor in any risk assessment. There is way more to suggest much greater (in rate and severity) long term harm from even asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 infections than from any authorized vaccine against it.

Then when it comes to transmission, it seems that the primary benefit of vaccination is not avoiding getting infected, but avoiding severe symptoms. I think by now it seems evident that covid will infect everyone, look at what is happening in Denmark with its high vaccination rate.

Slowing transmission is important and vaccines help do that. Most people will become infected at some point, but the the rate of infection is critical, both for short and long term outcomes. It matters in the short term because if everyone gets infected at about the same time, it can be statistically much less dangerous and still send people to hospitals at a rate they cannot handle. It matters in the long term because immunity, achived via either current vaccines or naturally, does not appear to be long lasting, meaning a higher sustained rate of illness, and more opportunities for new variants to crop up.

Omicron overwhelming hospitals does not seem to be the case as it seems that it is less dangerous.

Omicron is already starting to overwhelm hospitals, despite it being less severe, because it's significantly more contagious. Experts and health authorities were highly confident this was going to happen, it's basic multiplication. Omicron's estimated R value vs. it's apparent severity, even on the optimistic side of things, was landing firmly on a very poor outcome. There are still hopes that the omicron spike will be short lived, but it is and has been overwhelming health services.


Salient points:

  • Omicron is proving to be about a third as dangerous as delta, but the infection rate is considerably higher than triple.
  • Current vaccines have lower efficacy against Omicron, but the unvaccinated are still about thirteen times as likely to need to be hospitalized vs. the fully vaccinated.
  • Child COVID-19 hospitalizations are at an all-time record high.

You can't force trust in media and science, only free speech and transparency can do so.

Evidently, free speech and transparency can't do this. If most laymen cannot interpret data, transparency doesn't allow them to come to better conclusions; they still need to rely on experts. If those capable of presenting themselves as experts are willing to lie (and a minority are), and their statements are given equal weight to true ones, free speech isn't aiding the masses in coming to informed conclusions.

This isn't a knock on free speech, but the idea that the truth is what the public will select for when given a choice between it and a falsehood that matches their preconceptions.

Once people are told that there are 'right' information and 'false' information, by definition it will sow doubt and do other nasty things.

Well, there is right information and false information. So what are people supposed to be told? That one statement is as good as another? That what we feel like believing is as good as what we can show is real?
 
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There was plenty of doubt, and no evidence provided for one of the major claims justifying that action. I certainly never supported the invasion, and there were plenty of other's that questioned it's justifications.
I was vigorously opposed from the start. The lies were painfully obvious to me, leaving me incredulous that people could support it.
Back then, there were no explanations for these differences.

Erik Asp got the theory published in 2012. Neuroscience localized it to vmPFC areas subsequently.

This is illustrative, because it sets up a line with 3 points along our vmPFC activity levels at that time. Everybody agrees NOW that there was a pretext. But our suspicion varied at the start - in line with intensity of false tagging activity for that issue.
But basically the hardware is the same. We ALL make the same type of error eventually, and can benefit from discussion.
 
I was vigorously opposed from the start. The lies were painfully obvious to me, leaving me incredulous that people could support it.
Back then, there were no explanations for these differences.

I figured that those really in favor of the invasion didn't need any proof and the majority of people, those on the fence that weren't going to be personally put in harms way, were more than willing to not look too closely if they benefited in the short term. After all, Saddam's regime was near universally reviled, and not without reason, and a war certainly seemed winnable, also not without reason. So, why fuss over the details if you can get more support for your personal project, help your constituents, or make a truckload of money, all for the bargain basement price of a half-million dead Iraqis and a few thousand American kids that weren't your own? It's the crappy (halfway between fanciful and nonexistent) exit strategy and on going costs that really got people to reevaluate things. If they could have wrapped things up smoothly, the critical voices would still be fewer and less vocal, no matter how blatant the farce of the setup was.

But basically the hardware is the same. We ALL make the same type of error eventually, and can benefit from discussion.

I guess the difference is how resistant we are to evidence that doesn't line up with our original justifications.
 
I guess the difference is how resistant we are to evidence that doesn't line up with our original justifications.

The recent psych publications tying narcissism to antivax behaviour may well be explained by that.

Maybe one day mRNA tech can help our species with this problem too. But in the meantime, natural selection is cranking along, weeding out people that couldn't adapt.
 
Getting WWII flashbacks here.....

Who is playing God?

Viral RNA code and chemistry in a nucleocapsid, I guess?

Either people adapt, or they get infected and suffer the consequences of their own failure.

Unsymptomatic or mild Covid drops IQ by 2 points, similar to lead poisoning. Worse disease is, well worse.

7-8-9-10

For instance, getting ventilated and surviving yields an average 7 point IQ deficit.
For every person in ICU that dies, 8 more go on to die within 6 months of coming out.
9/10 people in the ICU's are unvaxed.

Natural Selection isn't terribly effective though. Most of these people are older, have already reproduced, and since they are demonstrably losing cognitive ability by the illness from a disadvantageous starting point, we can clearly see that Covid isn't helping make us any smarter in this or future generations.

Solving this problem requires intervention for the good of the species. We can't simply rely on the natural outcome, which is an even stupider surviving population, at higher risk of early onset dementia.
 
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The real discussion belongs to those who are qualified to do so. Not "local communities". And absolutely not random anecdotal pieces found on the internet, but rather thoroughly and long established highly vetted groups.

"There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” - Isaac Asimov
You don't decide who or where these discussions take place.

I don't want your goddamned plague, or it's fallout.
LOL you are probably boosted to the max, so you should be ok, and there is a 99.7% chance of survival

What renders me overtly suspicious on mRNA COVID vaccines is that any debate is censored and people who do so get deplatformed
because only those who are "approved" can talk about this, that's how a dictatorships is born.


FREEDOM!!!!!
 

FREEDOM!!!!!

The Prime Minister also reiterated the importance of vaccinations and booster jabs, and once again urged anyone that has yet to be double jabbed or boosted, to consider getting vaccinated as it is through the successful vaccine programme that Plan B restrictions are now able to be lifted.

Everyone should check out Nat Geo's The First Wave documentary while it's free to stream
 
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LOL you are probably boosted to the max

I'm fully vaccinated and intend to remain so, taking boosters as often as required to maintain . Given best currently available information, the balance of risks is for me getting a second booster (fourth dose) in about two months. Perhaps that will change if there are better vaccines available soon, this wave of Omicron burns out soon, or some other variant supplants Omicron.

so you should be ok

Being fully vaccinated can only protect me from the virus. It can't protect me from the effects of two years of mass recklessness that has precipitated a slew of inconveniences, some of which are even capable of reaching me. It can't get me into completely booked schedules for surgery to fix this deviated septum, torn ligament in my elbow, or carpal boss on my wrist. Mandates that tell me to do what I'd already be doing anyway may only be offensive as a matter of principle, but the requirements for proof--because there are people absurd enough to willfully avoid vaccination--can still be annoying impingments on my privacy, even if I'm capable of providing it.

Even if this was only about the direct effects of the virus, the significant protection provided by up to date vaccination is still far from perfect. I could get infected, which can have long term negative consequences, even if the infection completely asymptomatic. I also have to be careful that my mother--who is about seventy and recovering from throat cancer treatments that have left her quite frail--doesn't get infected, because she is at much greater risk.

and there is a 99.7% chance of survival

Vaccinated or not, I've never been worried that this pandemic was going to kill me.

The idea that dying is the only bad thing that can happen, or that those reluctant to take measures to protect themselves aren't the cause of the erosion of privacy and liberties associated with the pandemic response, is disingenuous. Every attack on freedom you've mentioned or intimated, you've contributed to with your own behavior and misinformation. That's part and parcel of the "fallout" mentioned in the line you quoted. It's a collection of annoyances I don't need or want that people, who prefer farce over fact and who can't take take anything seriously enough to see beyond their own noses, have inflicted upon us all.
 
This will make you burst out laughing:
today from Fox News:

"I was one of those who was lured into the naïve ideas about Iraq and even nation-building. I finally saw the light, thank goodness," Ingraham proclaimed.

20 years later, they catch on!
What geniuses.

If that joke of a circus is still running 20 years from now they'll be telling us how they campaigned for vaccines against those lying doctors. :LOL:
 
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