What could be done to make me use engineering

[Sophokles Logimo]

Firstly, nobody here really cares more about your "problem" than about anyone elses' problems.

And I did not expect anyone to. Somehow, people still decided that my critique of engineering was invalid and that I just didn't do it right, and set out to "solve" that problem by explaining how the system works, which I of course already know.

Specifically, what might make you use engineering may be different from what others, including the target audience of the game, enjoy using it for.

Yes, yes, this is just me. Nobody else out there has a problem with engineering.

Just me. Only me.

Lastly, you are posting in a forum (a place for debate) and in an open suggestion thread.

Yes. And as I wrote before, no one is obliged to agree with me. But when people misunderstand or, out of fear of change, misrepresent what I say, I need to clear that up. When they then become insulting, well, maybe they should be able to handle the reply or just not do that.

Take the suggestions people have already presented you and try them out.

It is literally not rocket science. There is nothing here to "try out" that I hadn't already tested. Tedious and boring remains tedious and boring.

 

[Brrokk]

I don't feel any heartache. I was just wondering why some people here feel so threatened that they resort to all kinds of silly manipulative tricks to somehow belittle a sentiment that apparently vast parts of the community share.

But I guess I have figured that out now: Some people are just always afraid of change, even of the mere talk of change.

You maybe don't know, but engineering has been hugely changed since it was first introduced.

Material storage used to have a total limit. I forget the number: you could only store a few hundred materials TOTAL in each of the three categories. Yes, you might have to throw away some lead to make room for arsenic while prospecting! This was changed as we now see, and I recall that it was a change that received universal approval. Now we can just let materials fill up as we play.

Engineering was also changed so that there was definite progress on every roll rather than random effects, and the total amount of material needed became much less. This change was also gladly received.

No-one is afraid of change, but it has to be good change. Dumbing-down the game so that everything you had to find in play is now offered on a plate wouldn't be a good change.

In those bad old days there were valid complaints about materials and engineering. Now, if you're having trouble, you're doing something wrong. Some of us here are prepared to help you figure it out, but you'll need to be willing to take advice.

 

[Sysmon]

Tedious and boring remains tedious and boring.

Which is your personal, subjective - and probably in the minority - opinion. But please keep posting about it if it makes you feel better.

S

 

[Sophokles Logimo]

That is curious, these are the 4 previous posts I have made here.





So accusing me of calling you too dumb to do engineering is actually a personal attack against me, which I have now reported.

Thank you.

Of course. You were trolling me so that you would have something to report to shut me up. The silly manipulative tactic of a person who cannot stand opinions they don't like and wants to misuse moderation in their favor.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Note to all participants: please discuss the topic. Other participants are not the topic. Failure to comply will result in advisories, warnings, reply bans and / or thread closure.

 

[Sophokles Logimo]

probably in the minority

Ah, sure. All those people in all those social media complaining about engineering. They are just a minority.

 

[LeoBartlet]

You maybe don't know, but engineering has been hugely changed since it was first introduced.

Material storage used to have a total limit. I forget the number: you could only store a few hundred materials TOTAL in each of the three categories. Yes, you might have to throw away some lead to make room for arsenic while prospecting! This was changed as we now see, and I recall that it was a change that received universal approval. Now we can just let materials fill up as we play.

Engineering was also changed so that there was definitely progress on every roll rather than random effects, and the total amount of material needed became much less. This change was also gladly received.

No-one is afraid of change, but it has to be good change. Dumbing-down the game so that everything you had to find in play is now offered on a plate wouldn't be a good change.

In those bad old days there were valid complaints about materials and engineering. Now, if you're having trouble, you're doing something wrong. Some of us here are prepared to help you figure it out, but you'll need to be willing to take advice.

A case could be made that they dumbed it down when they changed the engineering rolls to a one size fits all system that we have now. Due in no small part to the whining about people getting god rolls and others not getting them when they both spent the same amount of mats.

 

[Sysmon]

Ah, sure. All those people in all those social media complaining about engineering. They are just a minority.

There's an aging saying about the "loud minority". It stems from the fact that people that are content with the situation tend not to post about it. It's no different here.

S

 

[Sysmon]

A case could be made that they dumbed it down when they changed the engineering roles to a one size fits all system that we have now. Due in no small part to the whining about people getting god rolls and others not getting them when they both spent the same amount of mats.

The casino interface did a lot of damage to the early impression of engineering. People started complaining about RNG as if that isn't a mainstay of any RPG-type game. However, not only did the casino interface make it look like the wrong thing (gambling), it was also a bit unexpected in what was supposed to be a modding shop for space ships.

S

 

[LeoBartlet]

The casino interface did a lot of damage to the early impression of engineering. People started complaining about RNG as if that isn't a mainstay of any RPG-type game. However, not only did the casino interface make it look like the wrong thing (gambling), it was also a bit unexpected in what was supposed to be a modding shop for space ships.

S

Yup and the damage persist to this day.

 

[Bottom Hat]

I can only apologize again if my reply to your insistance that I was somehow too dumb to do engineering (and not, as I have explained multiple times, just appaled and bored by it) did hurt your feelings.

I am with you on this. I hate engineering so much that it just depresses me. I can't do anything competitive in the game without engine my ship, and I'm not talking about PvP.

All these people pointing out that this is your own opinion are just flat out wrong, as it affects two of my friends too - you might have heard of Baz. He left aged ago with his friend because the forcing of players to engage in something they don't want to do is just unfair.

We bought this game to get to the top and have our own fleet carriers, and make all our money from core mining. Then the Devs came along and added engineering when the three of us didn't ask for it, and now we can't make money any quicker than we did before the engineers. And don't get me started on mission pirates or regular ones, I can't fight them since these changes, without losing my ship. And I'm not putting a shield on my ship, as that means I'd have to engineer it. No way Hose eh.

Why can't the Devs make it possible to buy engineered modules for arx? Then we'd all have equal opportunity to play the game that they have changed it into, which again is not what I paid for. But we all have the money to buy arx and thus buy modules - I don't see any issue with this. If people can't buy arx, they should probably sell their consoles and stop trying to beat away on the engineer grind. Especially in odyssey, which takes the issue to a whole new level.

What do you think about buying engineered modules for arx? I am not sure if you have raised it already, but it's difficult to read the thread with all the hurt feelings that are on display.

Dirty, dirty tactics all around. Some people are wound up tighter than a balloon knot meeting an unwanted violation, and it's just not good practice on a discussion forum, especially when dedicated people like yourself are trying so hard to be open to discussing the topic.




Sorry if my post seems like I'm cross, but I am more furious than a racoon trying to get into a trashcan with a padlock on the lid - I'm sure you know what I mean? Those little swines can scratch you like an axe wound on the leg, and I work in refuse, so I've had my fair share of rodents.

Let me know what you think of buying modules with arx - they can't be micro transactions if they aren't for real money, so the Devs need to think about this. I often wonder if they behave like turtle heads on purpose, poking their heads out when it suits them, for a cheeky snatch at something from a juicy pie.

I'm going to calm down now though, as I'm not far from exploding all over my keyboard. I'm in full support of this though, it sickens me that people don't agree with you and me.

 

[Sysmon]

Yup and the damage persist to this day.

Also, engineering effects persist, which is the elephant in the room:

Early on, especially due to the potential for God Rolls, that introduced not only a power creep, but also the potential for a seriously unbalanced PvP game. The imbalance was somewhat reduced by introducing the current less-random system. But the effect was watered down by allowing grandfathering of pre-nerf engineered modules. So the imbalance was reduced and partly baked in while the power creep rampaged on.

The power creep was slightly reduced by letting NPCs have engineered modules. I believe people whinged over it. That turned heaps of fun when the NPCs acquired impossible engineering configurations for a short while. Alas, it didn't last.

However, the only way to truly balance things would be to return to the original engineering, but remove effects upon ship destruction. That would require some rebalancing of the first couple of engineering levels to make the effects easier to replace. But if people really want those level 4-5 effects, let them live with the danger of losing it again.

S

 

[Sophokles Logimo]

There's an aging saying about the "loud minority"

And what makes you think you are not part of that "loud minority"?

 

[Sophokles Logimo]

Patronising much?

Patronizing like insisting that someone who does not like something must be too dumb to do it?

Did they leave because of engineering?

That is what so many people say. I have, of course, no access to any valid representative survey about it.

 

[LeoBartlet]

Patronizing like insisting that someone who does not like something must be too dumb to do it?



That is what so many people say. I have, of course, no access to any valid representative survey about it.

Yes well lets not get off-topic as the mods have already warned the thread.

Now back to engineering I have no issues with your suggestions although replacing the silly materials with special currencies is slightly odd. Can you elaborate more on that?

 

[Sophokles Logimo]

Yes well lets not get off-topic as the mods have already warned the thread.

I would say if people leave because of engineering that is ontopic. But sure, we can only report from our own experiences here, and those will differ.

Now back to engineering I have no issues with your suggestions although replacing the silly materials with special currencies is slightly odd. Can you elaborate more on that?

Basically instead of having all various "materials", one could just have one currency per engineer that this particular engineer would accept for doing modifications. One unit for level 1 modifications, 5 for level 5, another 5 for an experimental effect. (Numbers, of course, just being examples.)

 

[Sysmon]

Yes well lets not get off-topic as the mods have already warned the thread.

Now back to engineering I have no issues with your suggestions although replacing the silly materials with special currencies is slightly odd. Can you elaborate more on that?

As several have already pointed out: The materials we pick up are already special currencies, so adding bananas or gold coins or whatever as yet another special currency will make a grand total of zero people happy.

If we accept Engineering as it is, mechanics-wise, perhaps a better discussion point is how we engage with the Engineers themselves. Is it really necessary to gather all that rubbish for unlocking them? Why are we able to pin recipes and do stuff ourselves when their services are supposed to be so unique and special? Why do effects persist through ship destruction? Why can't we engineer SRVs?

Maybe basic tuning shops for level 1 - 3 effects could be widespread, and even persist through death. The Engineers themselves could be for level 4 - 5 and special effects only. Also, I'd be a big fan of introducing downsides with all the upsides to engineering, as well as getting the randomness back.

S

 

[Mark Zero]

Basically instead of having all various "materials", one could just have one currency per engineer that this particular engineer would accept for doing modifications. One unit for level 1 modifications, 5 for level 5, another 5 for an experimental effect. (Numbers, of course, just being examples.)

Engineering materials = currency.

And the suggestion thread linked by @Factabulous includes both static numbers of materials per rank of an engineering tweak, and missions offered by the engineers directly to obtain the engineering materials (read: currency) needed to obtain the mods they provide, both suggested by Bruce G as ideas to improve engineering.

So...

 

[LeoBartlet]

I would say if people leave because of engineering that is ontopic. But sure, we can only report from our own experiences here, and those will differ.

Again its off-topic to the thread but you keep saying that but provide no evidence to back it up other than what you read on disinformation media.

Basically instead of having all various "materials", one could just have one currency per engineer that this particular engineer would accept for doing modifications. One unit for level 1 modifications, 5 for level 5, another 5 for an experimental effect. (Numbers, of course, just being examples.)

So instead of hundreds of materials, we'll have thirty-eight currencies.

Interesting but I suppose it would simplify (dumb down) the grind.

 

[LeoBartlet]

As several have already pointed out: The materials we pick up are already special currencies, so adding bananas or gold coins or whatever as yet another special currency will make a grand total of zero people happy.

If we accept Engineering as it is, mechanics-wise, perhaps a better discussion point is how we engage with the Engineers themselves. Is it really necessary to gather all that rubbish for unlocking them? Why are we able to pin recipes and do stuff ourselves when their services are supposed to be so unique and special? Why do effects persist through ship destruction? Why can't we engineer SRVs?

Maybe basic tuning shops for level 1 - 3 effects could be widespread, and even persist through death. The Engineers themselves could be for level 4 - 5 and special effects only. Also, I'd be a big fan of introducing downsides with all the upsides to engineering, as well as getting the randomness back.

S

There is much they could do to make relationship-building with engineers more immersive because right now as it stands it is nothing more than a transactional relationship.