More optional options allowed in "military" compartments. Please.

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You have provided 0 evidence as to how it would be a bad thing and only shown blind fear to change.
I literally just said I wanted the game to be changed in the very post you quoted, as well as providing evidence to support my point.

Rather than having a discussion about it you've decided to be kneejerky and senselessly combative... Which I understand honestly, sometimes this forum is a frustrating place to be. That said, I won't be interacting with you further as a result of your posting style.

Good luck getting the game you want.
 
Yeah, It is daft to not allow AFMUs, cargo, and fuel tanks in military slots.

Military slots are mostly an arbitrary balance distinction.

The restrictions kinda make sense if they are looked at from a contiguous internal volume perspective, where most modules couldn't be shaped arbitrarily and thus couldn't fit in the military slot swing space, but it takes some contrivances to justify some restrictions and not others.

Not allowing cargo is very easy to justify...no room for the canister manipulation and transport systems. Not allowing AFMU's or fuel is a bit harder, but transfering fuel and repair bots (or whatever) is still going to be considerably harder than delivering/routing electrical power.

HRPs and MRPs are just abstractions of armor plating. SCBs and shield boosters can be likened to batteries or capacitors, which absolutely can be made to conform to arbitrary volumes, even on the fly, and could deliver the boosts they deliver with nothing more than an electrical conduit.

When have you ever been low on fuel in combat?

I almost lost a duel once because I was fighting someone with even worse aim and had to put almost 30 tons of fuel through a pair of plasma slug rails. Had I only had a 16 ton tank, I either would have noticed in time and jumped away, or lost power mid-fight and been destroyed, but I won.

Realism is a silly argument. This is not a lifelike sim. It's not real life. Its a game. Game balance decisions trump realism.

Talk of realism is almost always meant as plausibility or verisimilitude, which is seeming real in the context of the setting presented. It's an internal consistency thing, not a trying simulate real-life reality sort of thing.
 
Again, ALL ships are multi role ships. You need to understand that if we are to have a reasonable discussion.

We both can make up the definitions of ships however we like. We won't ever have a basis for communication, but we can argue forever. Fun but not productive.

Alternatively, we could agree on using the definition on ships as given by the game. Unfortunately this would probably deflate most of your postings here.
 
Based on how multiple people are freaking out on how this would destroy the entire balance of the game you'd think I wouldn't have to. Simply applying some critical thinking and a tad bit of logic it is easy to see that by making ships less restrictive, they get better at a variety of other things.

That is just my point, these ships can already do these things so precedence is there. They just do them incredibly poorly forcing players hands to pick from 2 or 3 ships as opposed to a dozen or more. More different ships to do more things better in while still keeping the whole thing logical.

Well, according to someone, people just can't figure out how to scroll down so talk to them about that.
why should I do that, I am not making these claims and the suggestion... you are. so if you can't give 5 examples to prove why your suggestion would be good change, then how good is that change to begin with?
 
why should I do that, I am not making these claims and the suggestion... you are. so if you can't give 5 examples to prove why your suggestion would be good change, then how good is that change to begin with?
I didn't say I couldn't I said I didn't think I'd need to. As I said before, it really boils down to some critical thinking.

1. Explora-Chieftain ::
6) Fuel scoop
5) FSD Boost
4) SRV
4) Shield
4) Cargo
4) ResQ limpet controller
2) AFMU
2) (pick a thing)
1) Surface Scanner

2. Fed-Assault-Miner
5) Collect Limpet
5) Collect Limpet
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
3) Prospector Limpet
2) Fuel scoop
2) Refinery
1) Surface Scanner

3. HGE-Gathering-Vulture
5) Cargo
5) Cargo
4) Shield
2) Fuel Scoop
1) Collector
1) Collector
1) AFMU
1) FSD Booster

4. Miner-Crusader
6) Cargo
5) Cargo/(Fighter Hanger and you could have a friend pilot the fighter while you mine)/Shield if you are clumsy.
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
3) Refinery
3) Cargo
2) Cargo
2) Cargo
1) Cargo(/SCA If you want to be lazy)

5. Perma-Explora-Gunship
6) Fuel Scoop
6) SRV
5) Mining Limpet Controller
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
4) FSD Booster
2) AFMU
2) AFMU
1) Surface Scanner

And these were just off the top of my head.
 
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We both can make up the definitions of ships however we like. We won't ever have a basis for communication, but we can argue forever. Fun but not productive.

Alternatively, we could agree on using the definition on ships as given by the game. Unfortunately this would probably deflate most of your postings here.
My definitions are from the dictionary, where'd you get yours from? If you truly feel that the devs can do no wrong and that they can never make a mistake or anything I guess you are still playing version 1.0. Very flawed argument.
 
Military slots are mostly an arbitrary balance distinction.

The restrictions kinda make sense if they are looked at from a contiguous internal volume perspective, where most modules couldn't be shaped arbitrarily and thus couldn't fit in the military slot swing space, but it takes some contrivances to justify some restrictions and not others.

Not allowing cargo is very easy to justify...no room for the canister manipulation and transport systems. Not allowing AFMU's or fuel is a bit harder, but transfering fuel and repair bots (or whatever) is still going to be considerably harder than delivering/routing electrical power.
I get that and they need to be balanced further. I know WHY they are the way they are and that method of thinking is not correct.

Cargo racks in game lore are cube-ish of 1 ton canisters right? Well instead of making the holding rack a cube, why not make it a sheet/wall pattern? Still has easy enough access for an arm to pop out and feed it into the main delivery system. Especially because (assuming all 3 are used for cargo) is covering the entire ship. I simply cannot accept that in that universe, nobody figured out a way to take a few Legos from a box and make it into a wall. There really is no excuse nor reason fuel and AFMUs (and anything else that is "massless") shouldn't be allowed.
 
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I didn't say I couldn't I said I didn't think I'd need to. As I said before, it really boils down to some critical thinking.

1. Explora-Chieftain ::
6) Fuel scoop
5) FSD Boost
4) SRV
4) Shield
4) Cargo
4) ResQ limpet controller
2) AFMU
2) (pick a thing)
1) Surface Scanner

2. Fed-Assault-Miner
5) Collect Limpet
5) Collect Limpet
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
3) Prospector Limpet
2) Fuel scoop
2) Refinery
1) Surface Scanner

3. HGE-Gathering-Vulture
5) Cargo
5) Cargo
4) Shield
2) Fuel Scoop
1) Collector
1) Collector
1) AFMU
1) FSD Booster

4. Miner-Crusader
6) Cargo
5) Cargo/(Fighter Hanger and you could have a friend pilot the fighter while you mine)/Shield if you are clumsy.
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
3) Refinery
3) Cargo
2) Cargo
2) Cargo
1) Cargo(/SCA If you want to be lazy)

5. Perma-Explora-Gunship
6) Fuel Scoop
6) SRV
5) Mining Limpet Controller
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
4) FSD Booster
2) AFMU
2) AFMU
1) Surface Scanner

And these were just off the top of my head.
JG.jpg


That's great. Do you have any good examples?
 
I didn't say I couldn't I said I didn't think I'd need to. As I said before, it really boils down to some critical thinking.

1. Explora-Chieftain ::
6) Fuel scoop
5) FSD Boost
4) SRV
4) Shield
4) Cargo
4) ResQ limpet controller
2) AFMU
2) (pick a thing)
1) Surface Scanner

2. Fed-Assault-Miner
5) Collect Limpet
5) Collect Limpet
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
3) Prospector Limpet
2) Fuel scoop
2) Refinery
1) Surface Scanner

3. HGE-Gathering-Vulture
5) Cargo
5) Cargo
4) Shield
2) Fuel Scoop
1) Collector
1) Collector
1) AFMU
1) FSD Booster

4. Miner-Crusader
6) Cargo
5) Cargo/(Fighter Hanger and you could have a friend pilot the fighter while you mine)/Shield if you are clumsy.
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
3) Refinery
3) Cargo
2) Cargo
2) Cargo
1) Cargo(/SCA If you want to be lazy)

5. Perma-Explora-Gunship
6) Fuel Scoop
6) SRV
5) Mining Limpet Controller
4) Cargo
4) Cargo
4) FSD Booster
2) AFMU
2) AFMU
1) Surface Scanner

And these were just off the top of my head.
And still a totally worthless reply. nothing in here shows how these would make things so much better, you just tossed a few builds together.

Explora chieftain, I do not see how that is so much better than if you switched it around and not used the military slots...

Federal Assualt ship miner, 48T of cargo capacity... and 6 collector limpets... and a fuel scoop... no shields, who even use this?

Vulture to hunt HGE... difference is 32T, or rather 32 less limpets... so how much better would this be?

Crusader miner... descent amount of cargo, 160T, but no llimpet controllers, so you have to scoop everything...

Perma-Explora-Gunship.. nwo is it qute clear that you have not put any effort into this. Mining limpet controlelr in a size 5 slot, are they even available as a size 5? but no refinery... and this exlorer has no shields...


So it is quite clear that you have nothing real to say, these are just jokes builds with no real efffort, and NO EFFORT was put on even the most rudimental explaination how these would be so great, that these would be used...
 
. I simply cannot accept that in that universe, nobody figured out a way to take a few Legos from a box and make it into a wall. There really is no excuse nor reason fuel and AFMUs (and anything else that is "massless") shouldn't be allowed.
you better not look at the Type 7 then.. what is it, 1-2 meter to high to fit in a medium hangar... and nobody have figured out how to make lower so that it fits...
 
Here's another idea. Restrict military modules to military compartments. The epic nerf hammer of doom!
Yup! Even though it would cause me to have to rethink all of my ship designs, I actually think that would make sense. Buffing the impact of a single HRP / MRP / SCB / SRM to accommodate the fact that now you can’t have them everywhere would seem a reasonable way to adjust for it and finally the actual military ships would have a combat advantage over a Python / Anaconda which can no longer stacked to the gills with magic “heal me” buttons.

Someone mentioned the slots were originally listed under “core” on military ships only. That also seems more sensible!
 
People don't complain about not being able to put cargo racks in utility or core slots because those are clearly demarcated.

People rarely complain about not being able to put cargo racks in core slots because ships won't even launch without the core slots occupied by the module they were designed for (except the planetary landing suite).

Cargo racks in game lore are cube-ish of 1 ton canisters right? Well instead of making the holding rack a cube, why not make it a sheet/wall pattern? Still has easy enough access for an arm to pop out and feed it into the main delivery system. Especially because (assuming all 3 are used for cargo) is covering the entire ship. I simply cannot accept that in that universe, nobody figured out a way to take a few Legos from a box and make it into a wall. There really is no excuse nor reason fuel and AFMUs (and anything else that is "massless") shouldn't be allowed.

In my view, all universal optional internal module slots need to fill a rather contiguous space near the center of the vessel in question and have a direct link to any cargo hatches and hangars on the ship. Military slots would have no such restrictions.

Cargo canisters are 1m*2m cylindrical objects. A cargo rack is whatever it takes to secure and manipulate as many canisters as it's capable of holding. No particular shape need be specified, but there are certainly major constraints on minimum dimension and location. You can't just put a cargo rack in any arbitrary area and expect it to be easy to quickly and reliably move canisters to and from the cargo hatch. A 1m diameter canister needs, at the absolute minimum, something the thickness of a major oil pipeline to move through, and needlessly complicated feed systems would rationally be avoided. On top of that, any arbitrary canister needs to be able to be selected individually, as we can jettison single, specific, units of cargo. I'd also argue that any rational cargo storage system would mandate room for manual access, inspection, and in emergencies, relocation/removal of any and every canister in the hold; if we ever got full ship-legs, I'd expect to be able to manually load/unload all cargo. This would put even greater constraints on the allowable dimensions and internal placement.

AFMUs should probably have mass. That would make far more sense than assuming they expend massless ammunition to remotely repair modules with no physical access to them. They can repair MRPs, but since MRPs are abstracted internal armor, this is not hard to give context to either.

Fuel might rationally, physically, fit in voids that wouldn't even support modular armor, but that doesn't mean you typically want fuel there, or could put the same sort of storage tanks and transfer system it would rationally need in just any arbitrary location.

Ultimately, I don't find your explanation of what should be able to be placed in military slots any more plausible or any easier to rationally justify than the extant arbitrary limits. Without such an advantage/rationale, there would need to be some other justification to open up these modules, and I don't see that either. I do not think it would improve game balance. I think it would make ships that are supposed to be more combat oriented more capable as general-purpose ships, sometimes with the ability to rival ships that are supposed to be general purpose, and I think this is an undesirable thing.

Yup! Even though it would cause me to have to rethink all of my ship designs, I actually think that would make sense.

I find it much harder to justify restricting the addition of abstracted armor at the cost of writing off an optional internal as used to keep the mass balance accounted for than it is to justify keeping the limits of what can be placed in military slots. Such a limitation, if well considered might be good for balance, but it's considerably less plausible, in my view than the current system.

If I have a truck that can move with five tons of cargo in the bed, it can also move just as well with five tons of steel plate and kevlar batting attached to it/placed within it as armor. Doesn't matter if it's been painted military olive or is an ice cream truck, about the only rational limit is how much the suspension and drive-train can take and whether you can balance it adequately. Cargo capacity implies potential armor weight, but not all armor capacity can be arbitrarily converted to cargo capacity, especially if you can't just strap it to the outside of the vehicle. The same premise should work with ships in Elite as well, and apparently does.

Maybe it would have been better overall to have versions of certain modules be limited to different ships, in the same way that only luxury cabins can be placed in the Dolphin, Orca & Beluga? This would allow for advanced military spec versions of hull reinforcement etc which would afford the buff needed to keep the military ships ahead of the multirole ships. Then there would have been no need to add special slots in the first place. However, this could be fixed now by making all the current slots general and then introducing the restricted modules. There would be some unavoidable power creep but from then on it would be a matter of balancing these modules rather than trying to shoehorn more slots.

I'd be ok with something like this.

Installing armor is certainly easier if the thing was designed to accommodate it, and armor can be more efficient if the overall system accounts for it. Total mass of armor could be limited only by the load the ship can carry, but combat vessels could get more out of any given mass of armor.

This is also accounted for, to a small degree, with hull hardness values in game.
 
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People rarely complain about not being able to put cargo racks in core slots because ships won't even launch without the core slots occupied by the module they were designed for (except the planetary landing suite).
Yes, something which is made abundantly clear by the UI.
 
My definitions are from the dictionary, where'd you get yours from? If you truly feel that the devs can do no wrong and that they can never make a mistake or anything I guess you are still playing version 1.0. Very flawed argument.

The classification of ships as given in the game. As was pointed out in the thread to you more than once.

Ultimately, I don't find your explanation of what should be able to be placed in military slots any more plausible or any easier to rationally justify than the extant arbitrary limits. Without such an advantage/rationale, there would need to be some other justification to open up these modules, and I don't see that either. I do not think it would improve game balance. I think it would make ships that are supposed to be more combat oriented more capable as general-purpose ships, sometimes with the ability to rival ships that are supposed to be general purpose, and I think this is an undesirable thing.

You kind of already imply it in what you wrote there, but i want to still point it out: yes, any explanation is a bit arbitrary, but the implementation we currently have has its roots in game design. Could it have been done better and prettier? For sure, but this is what we got. It's not perfect, not shiny or pretty, but it does the job.

And in my eyes, the suggestion of this thread would just water it down and eliminate its purpose. Making it completely void... in this case, we should simply remove all these military slots completely and be done for.
 
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And still a totally worthless reply. nothing in here shows how these would make things so much better, you just tossed a few builds together.

Explora chieftain, I do not see how that is so much better than if you switched it around and not used the military slots...

Federal Assualt ship miner, 48T of cargo capacity... and 6 collector limpets... and a fuel scoop... no shields, who even use this?

Vulture to hunt HGE... difference is 32T, or rather 32 less limpets... so how much better would this be?

Crusader miner... descent amount of cargo, 160T, but no llimpet controllers, so you have to scoop everything...

Perma-Explora-Gunship.. nwo is it qute clear that you have not put any effort into this. Mining limpet controlelr in a size 5 slot, are they even available as a size 5? but no refinery... and this exlorer has no shields...


So it is quite clear that you have nothing real to say, these are just jokes builds with no real efffort, and NO EFFORT was put on even the most rudimental explaination how these would be so great, that these would be used...
"Show me 5 examples"
I show 5 examples of how it would be better but not game breaking as I have been claiming this entire time.
"still a totally worthless reply"
.....

you better not look at the Type 7 then.. what is it, 1-2 meter to high to fit in a medium hangar... and nobody have figured out how to make lower so that it fits...
Already have and it bothers me A LOT.

To everybody who wants a more restrictive and oppressive game, Star Citizen is right over there.
 
"Show me 5 examples"
I show 5 examples of how it would be better but not game breaking as I have been claiming this entire time.
"still a totally worthless reply"
.....

Why did you not quote my entire sentence? well it becomes quite obvious why when we read the stuff you deliberately left out

Will it really do that? can you give 5 examples of that? I mean, you have been going on and on about how this will open up ships for other things... so what ship and what areas are we open them up to, that they cant really do today..

Because as far as I am aware, you can already do just anything with any ship today. But the absolute majority of players will choose one of the better suited ships for task, and I have yet to see anything from this suggestion that would change that..


If anything, lets move back the military options to the core internals...
why should I do that, I am not making these claims and the suggestion... you are. so if you can't give 5 examples to prove why your suggestion would be good change, then how good is that change to begin with?

So I do not know how you learned to quote, but "Show me 5 examples" is not a quote of what did actually write...
 
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Sorry I didn’t read any of this thread because I got stuck at “optional options”.

it’s deeper than it appears at first.
 
Why did you not quote my entire sentence? well it becomes quite obvious why when we read the stuff you deliberately left out
Did you ask me to give you 5 examples? Yes, which I did.
can you give 5 examples of that?
Followed by...
why should I do that, I am not making these claims and the suggestion... you are. so if you can't give 5 examples to prove why your suggestion would be good change, then how good is that change to begin with?
Very clearly asking me to give examples.

My apologies for using slightly different words that mean the exact same thing. Again, just a little bit of critical thinking and this entire issue would have been avoided. The purpose of communication is to get a point across and I did that because you knew exactly what I was talking about. If the best argument against me is semantics between "can you give" and "show me" you have very decisively lost this battle.
 
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