A mile wide and an inch deep...

[Jmanis]

Now I want to see someone swim in a 1-2 inch deep swimming pool.

I like the analogy tbh, because it really highlights the problem with Elite in that regard.

To elaborate on this a bit more.. it's not what volume of water you have, it's what you do with it.

1-2 inches across 26 pools? You'll get your feet wet, and probably just get annoyed. Maybe you'll slip over and get completely drenched, and probably a concussion.
2-3 feet across 1-2 pools? You can sit down and relax, maybe? Perhaps the kids can have a paddle.
5-6 feet across 1/4-1/2 a pool? An adult can actually swim, maybe even dive in from the side.

Or alternately, dump it all through a waterslide system, then you've got something fun, for some definition of fun.

ED is that 1-inch, 26 pool configuration, and in general if you complain about the depth, you'll get told "...but use your imagination!". I'd beg anyone to put an inch of water down in their backyard and "pretend" to swim. That'll only really work if you're completely starved of the ability to swim in a pool configured in a way that allows you to do that. And in that regard, the 1/4 size, 5-6 foot deep pool, is "another game".

 

[Riverside]

No, I think I have a pretty good idea, thanks.


I just explained a situation where PvP can win or lose a weeks work (and seen it platy out for groups who do play in open). Thats meaningful to those who play PP in Open- in gameplay terms thats a lot more than simply losing your own ship (especially in a game where credits are meaningless- yet another area where ED lacks ideas or direction).

I also explain why Powerplay in solo lacks depth and challenge (since its unaltered 2015 gameplay) where you face NPCs with no engineering, and virtually no consequences (for example defection police with no interdictors). You essentially have two missions (cargo or massacre) when you could leverage so much more to create depth and interest.


Maybe, just maybe if Powerplay (and by extension aspects of ED like dropzones were larger allowing more NPC interaction) had more to do and were more varied...you know, add depth, Powerplay might not be dull.

But what do I know

See you say you think you have a good idea, showing that you just didn't read what I wrote, then go on to explain that you clearly don't get it at all.

You can lose weeks or months of work outside of PP too. Even if you only lose half an hour's work it is still a loss that is meaningful, outside of PP.

This is a pointless distraction, you are wrong to state that meaningful PvP can only happen in Powerplay & just can't get that

Move on. Depth. Not mission wrinkles, actual alternate paths a player could take to achieve a goal. I once parked a ship 35km away from a Guardian site & drove my SRV lights off to the place because there were a couple of ships fighting overhead. I did my thing, then sat there under a bridge watching the fight, it was pretty cool. I could have just switched to solo & achieved my goal but where's the fun in that?

Depth.

 

[myothershipisacobraiv]

Yeah non-Open players should have either a PP penalty or their efforts should only be able to agree with open efforts. So for example, they should only be able to match what open efforts have done, nothing more. So if open has delivered this many merits, then non-Open could match that. If Open has destroyed this many npcs, then non-Open could match it.

 

[myothershipisacobraiv]

I'm sorry, but I can't take this "rich lore" seriously. It's completely disconnected from the game mechanics. It's like reading a book called Elite Dangerous while supercruising, but that's about it. Everything in ED is tacked on, disjointed. Without a huge investment of imagination, this game is nothing. Those who have lost that imagination need VR as a substitute - and then the whole game is about immersion. Good gameplay is something completely different.

"Story-type" content can get expensive to do. So that's got to be part of it. Especially when you have a procedural game this large. There are spots in the game that are more set up for this kind of thing though. I do feel like the BGS and Odyssey could have had more of a connection in this expansion.

 

[myothershipisacobraiv]

For me, the situation is that Frontier doesn't really have strong ideas in terms of good game design. In my opinion, story-based design has no place in a game like ED. And so Frontier always likes to take refuge in the excuse of listening to the community. Unfortunately swarm intelligence is never really intelligent and so it happens that Frontier let itself be driven by the community for months until finally the Galnet news were back. And everyone was happy again, even though it's basically nothing more than fluff, completely detached from the actual game (unless you take CGs seriously as the missing link). This community is the worst possible game designer, Frontier knows that, but apparently has little choice - especially due to the lack of convincing ideas of its own, which could then be pushed through with a lot of self-confidence, if necessary even against larger parts of the community.

The drama surrounding the Galnet news is just one very blatant example that illustrates the dilemma very well.

But I thought that's what we were talking about. By "story-based" design I mean things that create narrative. Not necessarily text but just things that are written, things that lead to other things. Things that give things meaning and have narrative. The kinds of context-based situational things that need to be prepared or scripted somehow. I thought that's what we were talking about on this whole mile-wide inch-deep thing. If people really just meant more mechanics, well, what game out there couldn't use more of that?

 

[Straker]

For me the issue is integration. Frontier have given us all these gameplay tools (ie mile wide) and we are expected to integrate them together into our own, as they have said, "personal narrative". Now while I feel incredibly nauseous thinking about that marketing-speak, I can see their point. However, there's only so much you can do with these gameplay tools in the game to construct your own narrative (geez I really dislike that word).

In order to make the game a few inches deeper, they need to provide in-game methods of integrating these tools. Now, some would say that the BGS is an example of this, and I would agree, however I feel they need to explore this integration a bit further in ways that are more accessible to smaller groups of players or individuals. For example, integrate the on-foot experience with the ship experience in terms of chained events (eg missions). Send me off exploring a part of space to discover something that involves a series of events that take place as chained missions. Chaining missions is one way to increase the depth of this mile-wide pool.

 

[Ronzer]

That's how I've always seen it. When they used to say it's like a bathtub but only an inch deep, I'd think thats one huge bathtub. And as far as I've seen, ED/H/O is all about getting the base things in place first. You can see this when you go into any starport, and realize all the textures, on the big pillars for example, are all the same. It's still placeholder stuff. Only after these base things are all in place, would they start adding to the game which will be the same as adding inches or feet to that bathtub.
EDO may not be appreciated by everyone, but to a number of us, we've barely touched Horizons since its been out. And those enjoying Odyssey, if like me, see Odyssey adding inches to that one inch deep bathtub that easily can become feet.

But to get all their basics in, I still think they have a ways to go...but they're still at it. And then, only then, do they start filling the tub.

 

[rootsrat]

I've been listening to podcasts where this phrase keeps popping up and there's something about it that occured to me.

In one podcast, particularly, they took the analogy a bit further by pointing out that an area 1 mile x 1 mile x 1 inch has a volume of "around 26 Olympic sized swimming pools" and suggested that's the "volume of content" in ED, implying that's a lot of content - even if it's spread thinly.

I don't really want to get into whether or not the "volume of content" in ED is sufficient or not.
Personally, Ienjoy ED for what it is (although, like most other people, I'd like to see more stuffz added) but I can understand why some people might have a different opinion.
But, I digress.

Point is, if we're going to use this analogy to describe ED's content then it's worth considering that a very small increase in the "depth" will yield a gigantic increase in "volume".
Basically, if ED is "an inch deep" and has a "volume of content" equivalent to 26 olympic swimming pools then simply making it two inches deep will double the "volume of content" to 52 swimming pools.

That's actually a pretty good position to be in.
It means you've only got to make small additions that have an effect on everything and you've doubled, tripled or even quadrupled the "volume of content".

I mean, compare that to the opposite scenario, where you have a tightly-focused game with a lot of depth.
In that scenario, you've got to add a helluva lot more depth in order to double the "volume of content".

Looking at ED since launch, we've had engineering, planetary landing and legs which have all added to all facets of the game and, thus, multiplied the depth of the game.
That means, if the original "volume of content" of ED was 26 swimming pools, it's increased to over a hundred swimming pools during it's lifespan.
That's not bad at all and, because of it's breadth, any future increases to it's depth will continue to give us masses more "volume of content" overall.

Just thought I'd share that cos I keep hearing the "mile wide and an inch deep" thing as if it's a terrible thing and I don't really think it is.

The issue with this logic is that you assume that the whole area will be deepened.

While in reality we're getting half an inch of north-eastern section of pool 7, while the other pools are untouched.

Continuing this analogy, Elite isn't mile wide inch deep. There are deep wells (BGS as a whole). There are 4 inch deep basins (mining, combat) and there are 2 inch puddles (trading?) and there are also 1 inch bits (exobiology, smuggling)...

It's not flat basically, and therefore "mile wide inch deep" is extremely inaccurate in the first place.

 

[Jmanis]

But I thought that's what we were talking about. By "story-based" design I mean things that create narrative. Not necessarily text but just things that are written, things that lead to other things. Things that give things meaning and have narrative. The kinds of context-based situational things that need to be prepared or scripted somehow. I thought that's what we were talking about on this whole mile-wide inch-deep thing. If people really just meant more mechanics, well, what game out there couldn't use more of that?

Many that aren't ED?

ED lauds itself for its procedural mechanics, but the only aspects of the game that are remotely procedural are:

• The galaxy
• The (NPC[1]) factions, and to a degree, the BGS; and
• The mechanics which determine what activities are available, to an extent.

Essentially, it's the environment in which we exist. But in a game this vast, the activities must be procedural too, and in Elite's case, they simply aren't. You go do an assassination, that's it. You might get a chained mission, which is functionally just another mission. You explore, the ends of which are to make credits. You go get tissue samples of aliens and... make credits. You follow that tip-off after repeatedly taking missions and... get credits. I kinda don't need to iterate further on this.

Good procedural mechanics generate situational narrative well. Look carefully at it and you can see the stories repeat, but a small amount of complexity and diversity to your procedural algorithms can lead to vast, potentially endless stories to follow. This is where FD have missed the boat entirely.

It's why games like Hades are so wildly successful. There is a consistent, static plot arc to be followed. Fine. But the activity(ies) are procedural. When you get a boon from a god, they'll reference Gods you previously got boons from. The gods you get boons from will have impact on the activities you get further down the line and the way you make choices. People talk about what killed you last, and react to your previous activities.

FD could've done this with Tier 2 NPCs, as the faction contacts for missions. Just did a good trade on an Imperial market? Next time you talk to an Imperial POC, they offer you a lucrative trade contract. Ran a High CZ in support of the Federation? Next Imperial agent you see demands reparations in the form of a donation.

Been out Thargoid hunting? Next agent you talk to enquires about getting a tissue sample. Along the way to get it, you receive a message. They have a counter-offer to return a bomb disguised as a tissue sample for a very lucrative figure. Doing so makes you instantly hostile to the target faction and accrue a 50m credit bounty. Or you reveal the plot to your POC, who rewards you with a rank increase and a counter-mission to attack those who gave you the bomb, who are now hostile to you for not following through. On completion, a nearby common-superpower has an offer for you for further, well incentivised activity, if you're interested.

All these sorts of things could be hooked together off some reasonable templates to create diverse, lengthy story chains which can have radical impact to how you play the game, without taking away from your extant activity, unless you choose to follow-through. It can all be client-side driven and incentivised in a way that makes that a good path to choose. Instead, it's one or two-step activities that are indistinguishable no matter who, where or how you do them.

The key to success with a game the size of Elite isn't to build content to match a galaxy the size of this; it's to have a system that can automatically generate incentivised content that won't step on the toes of your main plot arcs. It doesn't need to be galaxy unique... it can be client-side procedural, and the rest of the galaxy doesn't have to share the same experiences as you. Many games do this, and so should Elite, but it doesn't.

I don't need to be the hero who saved ALD from Darkwater, but I would like to be the person who worked with General Ani Leonard who rescued a political prisoner during an election, only to find out there was going to be a raid against a trade convoy in order to weaken their election candidacy, and subsequently chased down the pirate lead who had a substantial bounty on their head. Procedural generation of activities can do that.

tl;dr Procedural creative narrative should not be distinct from game mechanics/activities.

[1] As opposed to PMFs, which are hand-generated, but not really relevant here.

 

[myothershipisacobraiv]

Many that aren't ED?

ED lauds itself for its procedural mechanics, but the only aspects of the game that are remotely procedural are:

• The galaxy
• The (NPC[1]) factions, and to a degree, the BGS; and
• The mechanics which determine what activities are available, to an extent.

Essentially, it's the environment in which we exist. But in a game this vast, the activities must be procedural too, and in Elite's case, they simply aren't. You go do an assassination, that's it. You might get a chained mission, which is functionally just another mission. You explore, the ends of which are to make credits. You go get tissue samples of aliens and... make credits. You follow that tip-off after repeatedly taking missions and... get credits. I kinda don't need to iterate further on this.

Good procedural mechanics generate situational narrative well. Look carefully at it and you can see the stories repeat, but a small amount of complexity and diversity to your procedural algorithms can lead to vast, potentially endless stories to follow. This is where FD have missed the boat entirely.

It's why games like Hades are so wildly successful. There is a consistent, static plot arc to be followed. Fine. But the activity(ies) are procedural. When you get a boon from a god, they'll reference Gods you previously got boons from. The gods you get boons from will have impact on the activities you get further down the line and the way you make choices. People talk about what killed you last, and react to your previous activities.

FD could've done this with Tier 2 NPCs, as the faction contacts for missions. Just did a good trade on an Imperial market? Next time you talk to an Imperial POC, they offer you a lucrative trade contract. Ran a High CZ in support of the Federation? Next Imperial agent you see demands reparations in the form of a donation.

Been out Thargoid hunting? Next agent you talk to enquires about getting a tissue sample. Along the way to get it, you receive a message. They have a counter-offer to return a bomb disguised as a tissue sample for a very lucrative figure. Doing so makes you instantly hostile to the target faction and accrue a 50m credit bounty. Or you reveal the plot to your POC, who rewards you with a rank increase and a counter-mission to attack those who gave you the bomb, who are now hostile to you for not following through. On completion, a nearby common-superpower has an offer for you for further, well incentivised activity, if you're interested.

All these sorts of things could be hooked together off some reasonable templates to create diverse, lengthy story chains which can have radical impact to how you play the game, without taking away from your extant activity, unless you choose to follow-through. It can all be client-side driven and incentivised in a way that makes that a good path to choose. Instead, it's one or two-step activities that are indistinguishable no matter who, where or how you do them.

The key to success with a game the size of Elite isn't to build content to match a galaxy the size of this; it's to have a system that can automatically generate incentivised content that won't step on the toes of your main plot arcs. It doesn't need to be galaxy unique... it can be client-side procedural, and the rest of the galaxy doesn't have to share the same experiences as you. Many games do this, and so should Elite, but it doesn't.

I don't need to be the hero who saved ALD from Darkwater, but I would like to be the person who worked with General Ani Leonard who rescued a political prisoner during an election, only to find out there was going to be a raid against a trade convoy in order to weaken their election candidacy, and subsequently chased down the pirate lead who had a substantial bounty on their head. Procedural generation of activities can do that.

tl;dr Procedural creative narrative should not be distinct from game mechanics/activities.

[1] As opposed to PMFs, which are hand-generated, but not really relevant here.

Yeah. It sounds like stuff I've wanted myself. I think it starts to get really complicated really fast when dealing with VO and animations and other assets and so on. Otherwise you just get "escort mission #3", which someone does once and then despises. It's just the type of stuff that you really want from the mission board though. The fact that they don't have more of this type of stuff suggests to me that either it's a nightmare to implement, or possibly that they already have implemented some of it but they didn't want to let it go yet. I really think that when they realized Odyssey wasn't going to be a smash hit because of various things, that they intentionally didn't drop some things with it they could have.

 

[Astaran]

hmm I don't think the issue is that Elite is "a mile wide, an inch deep", but more that there are so many (really!) great ideas that just fall one step short of becoming amazing features.

For example, taking samples of life forms. We can use research limpets to extract tissue from space-faring lifeforms and even Thargoid. Why has this feature not been thoroughly included in the exploration game loop? Why can't we also extract samples or "seeds" from plants? You could hand samples in to boost your exploration rank. There could also be a permanent (seasonal changing) Interstellar Initiative (to revive that abandoned feature) that asks for the delivery of certain types of samples to boost science and research which can lead to new lore/events or new equipment and modules (depending on what the Dungeon Masters at FDev decide )

Frontline Solutions is essentially a great idea. But why is there only one game mode (probably AI issues?) for every single battle? What about that "combat triangle" or whatver it was called in PR speech during the Odyssey hype build up? Why are there no hostile NPC SRVs or Skimmers in High Conflict zones? Why is there no new proper Dropship and/or Close Air Support ship that you could unlock with rank at Frontline Solutions? Also, thinking of CQC, why is there no ("detached") PvP-CQC mode for Frontline Solutions where I can just hop in for a few matches despite being thousands of lightyears away from the bubble?

In my opinion, almost every single game loop in Elite has this moment where I think "Man, if they had just done a little bit more here, this could be truely amazing". Elite isn't a bad game, far from it. I'm approaching the 2000 hours game time which is, by a very significant margin, the most time spent in any videogame that I own. And yet, there are those moments of frustration where I could yell at FDev to "just" add more meat to the bone in certain parts of the game to make it truely amazing.

 

[Rubbernuke]

See you say you think you have a good idea, showing that you just didn't read what I wrote, then go on to explain that you clearly don't get it at all.

You can lose weeks or months of work outside of PP too. Even if you only lose half an hour's work it is still a loss that is meaningful, outside of PP.

This is a pointless distraction, you are wrong to state that meaningful PvP can only happen in Powerplay & just can't get that

Move on. Depth. Not mission wrinkles, actual alternate paths a player could take to achieve a goal. I once parked a ship 35km away from a Guardian site & drove my SRV lights off to the place because there were a couple of ships fighting overhead. I did my thing, then sat there under a bridge watching the fight, it was pretty cool. I could have just switched to solo & achieved my goal but where's the fun in that?

Depth.

LOL! Please.

There are only two situations in ED where destruction really has high stakes- explorers with large amounts of data and Powerplay with large amounts of held merits (for bombs). Exploration is a personal loss (since data is for footfall / discovery tags + money) while Powerplay is a team loss, since merit bombs are generally done via groups. For Powerplay the loss is time, because PP cycles are finite. Its why people get so upset with PP and modes, because Solo uses ineffectual NPCs that have zero chance of killing you, or that PG allows teams to have solos benefits with none of opens drawbacks- and why at one level PvE in Powerplay has to be reworked.

Anything else? Its a case of soaking it up with money, money which is plentiful. Rep can be repaired, notoriety goes away on its own. Ships can be replaced, SLF pilots now are safe too, distances and support made easier by FCs and dramatically better FSDs.

Move on. Depth. Not mission wrinkles, actual alternate paths a player could take to achieve a goal. I once parked a ship 35km away from a Guardian site & drove my SRV lights off to the place because there were a couple of ships fighting overhead. I did my thing, then sat there under a bridge watching the fight, it was pretty cool. I could have just switched to solo & achieved my goal but where's the fun in that?

Depth.

So PvP depth for you is waiting for other people to finish? And if you were destroyed, you would have lost nothing of value.

Meanwhile large parts of the game you interact with much more are superficial and placeholder, and rapidly become tiresome and clockwork- such as C+P response. Or total lack of criminal gameplay careers (meaningful in that they are not just hobbies you do when you become bored of mining)...or superpower rep, or ranks, or Powerplay gameplay, or identikit missions, or having to relog for mats, or NPC persistence ruining things, or NPC constraints due to limiting where they fight, or railroading BGS activity to positive actions (i.e. making direct action like murder less and less useful), or giant C+P loopholes that render any depth elsewhere redundant (such as assaults and POI farming), C+P itself making no real sense (i.e. every kill triggers a bounty regardless of discovery).

If FD fixed those things (along with many, many other issues regarding exploration- such as recoverable black boxes, better use of data (for example data drives BGS expansion)), mining (with extended locations such as restricted mining areas where you are mining illegally) and more you'd then have 'depth'. But if you are happy with paper thin mediocrity then cool, thats your choice. Wait under your bridge

 

[Rubbernuke]

hmm I don't think the issue is that Elite is "a mile wide, an inch deep", but more that there are so many (really!) great ideas that just fall one step short of becoming amazing features.

For example, taking samples of life forms. We can use research limpets to extract tissue from space-faring lifeforms and even Thargoid. Why has this feature not been thoroughly included in the exploration game loop? Why can't we also extract samples or "seeds" from plants? You could hand samples in to boost your exploration rank. There could also be a permanent (seasonal changing) Interstellar Initiative (to revive that abandoned feature) that asks for the delivery of certain types of samples to boost science and research which can lead to new lore/events or new equipment and modules (depending on what the Dungeon Masters at FDev decide )

Frontline Solutions is essentially a great idea. But why is there only one game mode (probably AI issues?) for every single battle? What about that "combat triangle" or whatver it was called in PR speech during the Odyssey hype build up? Why are there no hostile NPC SRVs or Skimmers in High Conflict zones? Why is there no new proper Dropship and/or Close Air Support ship that you could unlock with rank at Frontline Solutions? Also, thinking of CQC, why is there no ("detached") PvP-CQC mode for Frontline Solutions where I can just hop in for a few matches despite being thousands of lightyears away from the bubble?

In my opinion, almost every single game loop in Elite has this moment where I think "Man, if they had just done a little bit more here, this could be truely amazing". Elite isn't a bad game, far from it. I'm approaching the 2000 hours game time which is, by a very significant margin, the most time spent in any videogame that I own. And yet, there are those moments of frustration where I could yell at FDev to "just" add more meat to the bone in certain parts of the game to make it truely amazing.

Thats the frustrating part- FD are so close to getting it right sometimes- or get it right and then suddenly walk it back.

 

[Rat Catcher]

It's not flat basically, and therefore "mile wide inch deep" is extremely inaccurate in the first place.

As it is a 2 dimensional mathematical representation of a 3 dimentional object then no description could possibly be accurate, surely?
(Yes, I'm being facetious!)

 

[Rubbernuke]

As it is a 2 dimensional mathematical representation of a 3 dimentional object then no description could possibly be accurate, surely?
(Yes, I'm being facetious!)

Mile wide and inch deep just makes me think of biscuits and wafers.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Mile wide and inch deep just makes me think of biscuits and wafers.

...not possible, sorry, mate...

Both of those have substance!

 

[Rubbernuke]

...not possible, sorry, mate...

Both of those have substance!

Wafers seem to have substance but just melt into nothing. In fact all French biscuits I try do the same with tea which is highly distressing.

Shortbread is an inch deep though, and I'd love that being a mile wide.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Wafers seem to have substance but just melt into nothing. In fact all French biscuits I try do the same with tea which is highly distressing.

Shortbread is an inch deep though, and I'd love that being a mile wide.

So, in essense, you are making a French biscuit, and a cup of tea, a relativistic comparison to the 2 dimensional anomoly that ED, and its content, represent in the space/time continuum of paradoxical gaming when subjugated to the nebulous PvP/PvE conflux of Powerplay?

That is an excellent paradigm, I must congratulate you on such insight!

 

[Rubbernuke]

So, in essense, you are making a French biscuit, and a cup of tea, a relativistic comparison to the 2 dimensional anomoly that ED, and its content, represent in the space/time continuum of paradoxical gaming when subjugated to the nebulous PvP/PvE conflux of Powerplay?

That is an excellent paradigm, I must congratulate you on such insight!

Shortbread is the key here. If that was in ED then all its issues would vanish in a golden crumbly flash of deliciousness.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Shortbread is the key here. If that was in ED then all its issues would vanish in a golden crumbly flash of deliciousness.

I omitted the shortbread from my multi-diemensional calculus array as determining the butter content, and its logical point of origin, added an almost infinite number of nested valiables, invalidating the wafers deliquescence.

And, of course, determining if the aforementioned shortbread was inserted into the open or sealed part of the complex mathematical model made a parody of the initial determination..

I don't like shortbread..