NFTs and Elite

SO...I'm not that educated on NFTs and Cryptocurrency and Blockchains and such. I've seen some of our youtube creators talk about NFTs, read the news with the likes of Ubisoft and such, and saw a few jokes here and there about Elite and NFTs.

I've got a question and forgive me if it seems foolish. It is in fact ignorant - in that I don't know - which is why I'm asking:
How would NFTs be incorporated into Elite?

I'm not asking if they should be. I understand that can lead to very heated discussion. I'm just interested in the 'how'. How does it work? What does it do for me, the player, and for FDev, the developer/owner of the game? Feel free to describe other games, too, but I'm mostly curious how it might work in this sort of gaming space. To my knowledge, FDev has made no announcement regarding incorporating NFTs so this really is just my curiosity. I'm assuming a game like Elite wouldn't necessarily be the ideal target, anyways, but I dunno?

I sort-of understand the economic possibilities in games with player-created assets, such as Minecraft, Roblox, or even shooter games (trading skins and such)...but I want to emphasize sort-of understand. So, for the experts on how all this newfangled stuff works...please fill me in! I'd be delighted to be pointed to resources, too (wiki articles and the like) if that would be easier than explaining here. Thanks for the assist, commanders!
 
So NFTs (and the entire crypto space, really, unless you count funding ransomware gangs) are entirely smoke and mirrors and to the extent that they do something, other technologies already do it considerably better. Its very difficult to explain what they actually are, because any actual explanation runs into the "but that makes no sense" barrier.

The point is for them to make no sense, because that means only the truly gullible buy them, and they're the best marks.

As far as what they do:
- imagine you had a piece of paper which said "the Mona Lisa is in the Louvre" on it.
- imagine the piece of paper also had a unique serial number on it.
- congratulations, you now have a low-tech NFT of the Mona Lisa.
- now set fire to a rainforest and steal all the graphics cards from gamers to get the proper high-tech effect.
- if you can get someone to buy your bit of paper for actual money (just the paper, nothing to do with the Mona Lisa itself) you win
- you might have to hype up the whole concept and claim that your piece of paper is the Mona Lisa before someone takes the bait

Now, a sensible person would ask "why would someone buy that paper for any amount of money at all?" and "couldn't I just make my own piece of paper with the words Mona Lisa on if I wanted one of those?". Great - we don't want sensible buyers, we want people who are sure that pieces of paper with the names and locations of artwork are the next big thing and will give us lots of actual money for them. (While I'm here, does anyone want to buy a bit of paper with the words Mona Lisa on for £10,000? I'll throw in free postage!)

One of the big advantages of Frontier being run by boring British people rather than the Silicon Valley set is that they're probably not stupid enough to bring a bunch of negative feedback which would make the Odyssey launch look like a great success down on their heads by suggesting it.

So I know you said you weren't so interested in the "should", but since the "how" is basically "as part of a giant scam" there's not really any answer to that which doesn't also include the "should".
 
NFTs? It's usually just a url to a picture on a website right now - and if that website is ever shut down, the url that you bought will do absolutely nothing. But worse than that it's actually not the link itself that you bought, but a certificate that says that you own that link.

...you don't own whatever picture the url goes to, and anyone can copy and paste that to their heart's content.

It's a great way to launder money though, and it's got all the neat buzzwords, like "crypto", "blockchain" and "non-fungible" so you know it's good.

I mean it's also a scam, and you're more likely to wind up with a picture of a really ugly hat for a game that nobody wants to play than anything useful.
 
So NFTs (and the entire crypto space, really, unless you count funding ransomware gangs) are entirely smoke and mirrors and to the extent that they do something, other technologies already do it considerably better. Its very difficult to explain what they actually are, because any actual explanation runs into the "but that makes no sense" barrier.

The point is for them to make no sense, because that means only the truly gullible buy them, and they're the best marks.

As far as what they do:
- imagine you had a piece of paper which said "the Mona Lisa is in the Louvre" on it.
- imagine the piece of paper also had a unique serial number on it.
- congratulations, you now have a low-tech NFT of the Mona Lisa.
- now set fire to a rainforest and steal all the graphics cards from gamers to get the proper high-tech effect.
- if you can get someone to buy your bit of paper for actual money (just the paper, nothing to do with the Mona Lisa itself) you win
- you might have to hype up the whole concept and claim that your piece of paper is the Mona Lisa before someone takes the bait

Now, a sensible person would ask "why would someone buy that paper for any amount of money at all?" and "couldn't I just make my own piece of paper with the words Mona Lisa on if I wanted one of those?". Great - we don't want sensible buyers, we want people who are sure that pieces of paper with the names and locations of artwork are the next big thing and will give us lots of actual money for them. (While I'm here, does anyone want to buy a bit of paper with the words Mona Lisa on for £10,000? I'll throw in free postage!)

One of the big advantages of Frontier being run by boring British people rather than the Silicon Valley set is that they're probably not stupid enough to bring a bunch of negative feedback which would make the Odyssey launch look like a great success down on their heads by suggesting it.

So I know you said you weren't so interested in the "should", but since the "how" is basically "as part of a giant scam" there's not really any answer to that which doesn't also include the "should".
I agree with everything. Except the part you put in brackets. A piece of paper (cotton) with a guy in green ink on it is worth x amount according to quite a bit of people. And it isn't even backed by any scarce resource anymore...

One page from a shop-soiled razzle?
What are you doing here? No one's talking about free stuffz 😜
 
So NFTs (and the entire crypto space, really, unless you count funding ransomware gangs) are entirely smoke and mirrors and to the extent that they do something, other technologies already do it considerably better. Its very difficult to explain what they actually are, because any actual explanation runs into the "but that makes no sense" barrier.

The point is for them to make no sense, because that means only the truly gullible buy them, and they're the best marks.

As far as what they do:
- imagine you had a piece of paper which said "the Mona Lisa is in the Louvre" on it.
- imagine the piece of paper also had a unique serial number on it.
- congratulations, you now have a low-tech NFT of the Mona Lisa.
- now set fire to a rainforest and steal all the graphics cards from gamers to get the proper high-tech effect.
- if you can get someone to buy your bit of paper for actual money (just the paper, nothing to do with the Mona Lisa itself) you win
- you might have to hype up the whole concept and claim that your piece of paper is the Mona Lisa before someone takes the bait

Now, a sensible person would ask "why would someone buy that paper for any amount of money at all?" and "couldn't I just make my own piece of paper with the words Mona Lisa on if I wanted one of those?". Great - we don't want sensible buyers, we want people who are sure that pieces of paper with the names and locations of artwork are the next big thing and will give us lots of actual money for them. (While I'm here, does anyone want to buy a bit of paper with the words Mona Lisa on for £10,000? I'll throw in free postage!)

One of the big advantages of Frontier being run by boring British people rather than the Silicon Valley set is that they're probably not stupid enough to bring a bunch of negative feedback which would make the Odyssey launch look like a great success down on their heads by suggesting it.

So I know you said you weren't so interested in the "should", but since the "how" is basically "as part of a giant scam" there's not really any answer to that which doesn't also include the "should".
as much as i despite setting fire to a rainforest and stealing all the graphics cards from gamers, in most legal systems ownership of something is a piece of paper. you own a house, because you have the papers. with anything arts and some intellectual property there is nothing you can do with it.
after university i worked sometimes for an internationally "important" artist. i still remember going with him (he was very old already back than,) to a collector who had bought some pieces of paper in the 70ties to ask that collector for those papers being shown in an exhibition. the collector had a bank-loan on it, and they were stored in a bank-safe. he took us to the bank, we were invited to look at the pictures - but those were gone. cheap paper, cheap colours (the artist was poor in the 70ties), wrongly stored - basically old blank papers, almost nothing to see. the collector closed the safe and nobody talked about it again. as their price was taxed by an expert 20 years back, they were still good to cover the loan.

in that sense NFTs are a piece of paper that you own the mona lisa, without having the option to redraw public access (not unusual in the arts), but also without having to pay an provenance researcher to proof your ownership. sounds crazy, as crazy as somebody claiming he owns the house you have been living in since 20 years because he has the papers ... wait...
 
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as much as i despite setting fire to a rainforest and stealing all the graphics cards from gamers, in most legal systems ownership of something is a piece of paper. you own a house, because you have the papers. with anything arts and some intellectual property there is nothing you can do with it.
after university i worked sometimes for an internationally "important" artist. i still remember going with him (he was very old already back than,) to a collector who had bought some pieces of paper in the 70ties to ask that collector for those papers being shown in an exhibition. the collector had a bank-loan on it, and they were stored in a bank-safe. he took us to the bank, we were invited to look at the pictures - but those were gone. cheap paper, cheap colours (the artist was poor in the 70ties), wrongly stored - basically old blank papers, almost nothing to see. the collector closed the safe and nobody talked about it again. as their price was taxed by an expert 20 years back, they were still good to cover the loan.

in that sense NFTs are a piece of paper that you own the mona lisa, without having the option to redraw public access (not unusual in the arts), but also without having to pay an provenance researcher to proof your ownership. sounds crazy, as crazy as somebody claiming he owns the house you have been living in since 20 years because he has the papers ... wait...
The problem with this analogy is, the way things currently work the bit of paper corresponding to ownership of your house is issued by the state. And if somebody tries to pass off their own piece of paper saying they own your house, they are liable to be prosecuted for fraud. However, in the NFT space, presently anybody can print an ownership certificate for anything they like, which makes them a bit less authoritative. Certainly, it is quite unlikely that the Louvre will honor your NFT if you show up with one and try to take the physical painting.

Actually, the situation with NFTs would lend itself quite well to an application in ED. What they are most closely analogous to is those scams that will sell you a certificate of ownership for some star from a star catalog. Frontier could certainly, if they were so inclined, sell such certificates for stars in the ED galaxy. It's not like there's any shortage. Of course so could, say, the developers of voice attack - and they might be better positioned to create a value add, since they could do something like have it play a cool announcement when you enter the system that you "bought".
 
you could conceptually treat the purchase of an in-game asset (e.g. a star) as a non-fungible token. Or more accurately a collection of non-fungible tokens: all the data generated by stellar forge pertaining to that single star stored as data in a block chain. You couldn't actually do anything with it, but you could tell people you own it and they might even play along.

Much more straightforward for Frontier to offer to rename a star at your request for a specified dollar amount.

The basic idea is to turn an intangible, virtual "asset" into something less virtual and more tangible. Works reasonably well for the seller, provided you can find a buyer.
 
I agree with everything. Except the part you put in brackets. A piece of paper (cotton) with a guy in green ink on it is worth x amount according to quite a bit of people. And it isn't even backed by any scarce resource anymore...


What are you doing here? No one's talking about free stuffz 😜

Well they should be!
 
As it was put to me by someone I know, buying a NFT is like buying a certificate for a Rolex. Okay if you've also got the Rolex, but pointless if you don't. Or alternatively, like paying that company that says you can own an acre of the moon: sure, you'll get a nice piece of paper saying you do, but good luck expecting that supposed property claim to ever be respected.
 
SO...I'm not that educated on NFTs and Cryptocurrency and Blockchains and such. I've seen some of our youtube creators talk about NFTs, read the news with the likes of Ubisoft and such, and saw a few jokes here and there about Elite and NFTs.

I've got a question and forgive me if it seems foolish. It is in fact ignorant - in that I don't know - which is why I'm asking:
How would NFTs be incorporated into Elite?

I'm not asking if they should be. I understand that can lead to very heated discussion. I'm just interested in the 'how'. How does it work? What does it do for me, the player, and for FDev, the developer/owner of the game? Feel free to describe other games, too, but I'm mostly curious how it might work in this sort of gaming space. To my knowledge, FDev has made no announcement regarding incorporating NFTs so this really is just my curiosity. I'm assuming a game like Elite wouldn't necessarily be the ideal target, anyways, but I dunno?

I sort-of understand the economic possibilities in games with player-created assets, such as Minecraft, Roblox, or even shooter games (trading skins and such)...but I want to emphasize sort-of understand. So, for the experts on how all this newfangled stuff works...please fill me in! I'd be delighted to be pointed to resources, too (wiki articles and the like) if that would be easier than explaining here. Thanks for the assist, commanders!

Ultimately, tokenized game assets are just a way for a publisher to capitalize on NFT hype. The purpose of an NFT on a decentralized blockchain is completely undermined if there is still a central authority (the game publisher) that can arbitrarily honor, reject, or limit the use or transfer of the token, and you can damn well bet that any terms in the game's license agreement, and the NFT itself, are worded to provide unlimited liberty for the publisher and as little as possible for the NFT holder.

So, "how" is the wrong question. It's a technical one that can be answered by putting "what is an NFT" into a search engine and applying some deductive reasoning. "Why?" is the more relevant question, and the answer is, thus far, to scam customers out of stuff that was either free, or beyond the purview of the publisher, before.

So NFTs (and the entire crypto space, really, unless you count funding ransomware gangs) are entirely smoke and mirrors and to the extent that they do something, other technologies already do it considerably better. Its very difficult to explain what they actually are, because any actual explanation runs into the "but that makes no sense" barrier.

The point is for them to make no sense, because that means only the truly gullible buy them, and they're the best marks.

As far as what they do:
- imagine you had a piece of paper which said "the Mona Lisa is in the Louvre" on it.
- imagine the piece of paper also had a unique serial number on it.
- congratulations, you now have a low-tech NFT of the Mona Lisa.
- now set fire to a rainforest and steal all the graphics cards from gamers to get the proper high-tech effect.
- if you can get someone to buy your bit of paper for actual money (just the paper, nothing to do with the Mona Lisa itself) you win
- you might have to hype up the whole concept and claim that your piece of paper is the Mona Lisa before someone takes the bait

I disagree with this, generally speaking.

Blockchains, as immutable, distributed ledgers of transactions, do something that has never been done before. Applications for that technology like cryptocurrencies, decentralized finance, and even NFTs, also do things that are impractical to do otherwise (it's thus far impossible to counterfeit, and simultaneously difficult to hide the provenance or prevent/revoke the transfer of BTC, for example. Another is a smart contract that will automatically be fullfilled upon certain conditions being met, without requiring any third party mediation or intermediary), but are generally still in an immature state where speculative investments are the predominant activity.

Sure you can technically make an NFT of anything and try to sell it, but even if the vast and overwhelming majority of NFTs and cryptocurrencies out there are either utterly senseless wastes of blockspace or scams, that doesn't imply that such uses are the only uses.

Now, a sensible person would ask "why would someone buy that paper for any amount of money at all?" and "couldn't I just make my own piece of paper with the words Mona Lisa on if I wanted one of those?". Great - we don't want sensible buyers, we want people who are sure that pieces of paper with the names and locations of artwork are the next big thing and will give us lots of actual money for them. (While I'm here, does anyone want to buy a bit of paper with the words Mona Lisa on for £10,000? I'll throw in free postage!)

This pretty much sums up my opinion on intellectual property in general.

For NFTs this is exacerbated even further as there hasn't been sufficient legal challenge or precedent to determine precisely under which circumstances terms set down in the contract that create an NFT are going to be enforced or upon what content it can be enforced. The recent judgement on the inability to copyright AI created art essentially invalidated a huge swath of NFTs in the US, for example...because people were taking AI generated permutations of one original piece and selling each as a discrete NFT. You can still buy that NFT, but such ownership is moot if no one is going to honor it, because the market value of intellectual property is wholly dependent on being able to excluded others from it's use.

Most early NFTs will be as forgotten as the blockchain allows them to be and there will be a lot of tears in the process, but the hype will eventually die down, people will start using the content of correctly formatted NFTs in legal disputes where they will be the deciding factor, and they will find a legitimate utilitarian niche. I have no idea how long this will take, or what blockchains will dominate the market in the long term, but I'm fairly confident they're here to stay.
 
In the UK people have been able to buy private number plates for their cars for years. I remember as a kid thinking Max Bygraves' Rolls Royce having 'MB1' being very cool and that Mercedes Benz offering him big money for it and Max declining was even cooler. Of course most private plates are only special to the individual but only rarely is one cool enough that it may be considered of value to someone else, and therefore potentially an investment. But it's still a hot potato, any number plate only has value if it can be applied to a vehicle & if the government were to change the rules any value in that 'asset' would disappear. So you don't want to still have money 'invested' in it when that bubble bursts.

So as I understand it if I buy some in-game item (a unique ship skin for example) that others consider to be desirable, and FDev allowed the transfer of skin ownership between players I could potentially profit from that by selling the right to apply it to ships to someone else. Of course eventually the game servers will be switched off and whoever is holding that hot potato when that happens can no longer sell it & the value becomes zero.

Now the UK government (DVLA) is pretty solid. The rules aren't likely to change any time soon, so buying a private plate as an investment is fairly safe. Frontier are a pretty solid company, the ED servers aren't likely to be switched off any time soon but we can be pretty sure one day we will no longer be able to use an in-game asset we bought.

A fool and their money are easily parted, and if you have a hot potato & hold on to it for too long you're going to get your fingers burned so pass it on.

(I am not an expert)
 
So as I understand it if I buy some in-game item (a unique ship skin for example) that others consider to be desirable, and FDev allowed the transfer of skin ownership between players I could potentially profit from that by selling the right to apply it to ships to someone else.
I feel reasonably confident predicting that this, at least, will never happen. What rational game developer is going to invest staff time to create an asset that can only be sold to one user once, when they could just not get crypto involved and sell the asset to as many users as will buy it?
 
I feel reasonably confident predicting that this, at least, will never happen. What rational game developer is going to invest staff time to create an asset that can only be sold to one user once, when they could just not get crypto involved and sell the asset to as many users as will buy it?

Transaction fees. Each time an asset is transferred from one 'owner' to another the company managing the transaction takes a cut.
 
As touched on above, NFTs can be anything in game that users are willing to trade. Makes most sense if the item is of limited quantity. Some examples:
  • Users able to trade limited edition ships like Cobra Mk IV to other players.
  • Limited edition skins that can be traded.
  • Trading limited edition equipment (CG rewards).
  • Trade station 'ownership', where the station can be renamed by owner.
  • Trading Fleet Carriers.
No, I don't think it will ever be in game.
 
Thing is, with a walled garden, like a game, you don't need NFTs to do anything that NFTs are purported to be able to do.

The list provided above by @Stumpii could be done by FD simply implementing those abilities without NFTs.

But as they conclude, FD wouldn't do any of this anyway, NFT or otherwise.

NFTs are a solution to a problem nobody asked for and nobody needs, so of course idiots are pumping money into them.
 
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