Aviary Details

[Iben]

I would find it extremely unlikely that Frontier would add enough aviary birds to justify an entire pack. If they're only going to low-ball with a mere 7 aviary birds, would it even be worth the bother? Go big or go home I say.

Can someone finally explain to me why a pack of 8/7 birds would be extremely unlikely? Because all I hear are literally the same arguments that were said when we had hints at an Aquatics pack in the first year, and those turned out to be flat out wrong when it was released.

 

[Mjmannella]

It's not that I think 7 aviary birds would be unlikely, it's just that it would be a major pittance and completely unrepresentative of the necessary amount of birds for aviaries. You can't satisfy everyone if your numbers are that low.

 

[Iben]

We survived it when we had the Aquatics pack where we only ended up with 5 diving animals (remember, the gharial wasn't even updated then), I'm sure we'll survive it again when they give us a 7/8 birds pack.

There's no way to ever satisfy everyone in this community, even if we got a pack with 20 birds. So there's no point in aiming at trying to please everyone. And given that people really want aviary birds, it's much smarter to give them 7/8 ones then giving them 7/8 birds that aren't aviary birds at all.

I'm not saying people don't want the animals you mention, but given that the community has been asking for flying birds for the past two years it's smarter to give them a few flying birds than giving them more non flying birds

 

[Aramar]

Can someone finally explain to me why a pack of 8/7 birds would be extremely unlikely? Because all I hear are literally the same arguments that were said when we had hints at an Aquatics pack in the first year, and those turned out to be flat out wrong when it was released.

Hello Iben. I don't think 7/8 birds is highly unlikely, but I think that amount of birds is not enough to represent birds (although I know that more birds could come later). I have no special knowledge of animals and I've learned a lot in this forum. Me, as a "normal" or average person, I think there's a big difference between the aquatic pack and the bird pack.

I can think of some aquatic animals (penguin, seal, otter, sea lion, beaver, crocodile, caiman, walrus and few more). The aquatic pack with 4 animals didn't bring all of them, but It brought enough and the remaining ones have been easily added in new packs (we are still waiting for the capybara). Now we have a very good representation of aquatic animals in the game (not counting fish)

However, with birds, the amount of different birds I can think of being a normal person without special knowledge, is much larger than aquatic animals. So if we only get 7 birds, there would be many more missing birds than aquatic animals were missing when the aquatic pack was released. If we add that we are at a later point in time of development, it's difficult to think that there are many more DLCs coming which will add more birds. So, I'm afraid that the game can end with a poor representation for birds which is not the case for aquatic animals.

Of course, if we get 8 birds now, and 20 birds later in different DLCs, at the end having had 8 birds only at the beginning wouldn't be so bad, but since we don't know if that's going to happen, I prefer to have a bigger aviary pack now even if it is more expensive.

This is of course just my personal opinion, but I feel more people in the forum have similar thoughts. I won't be disappointed if we get 8 birds, but such a pack would get me superexcited like the aquatic pack got me even with only 4 animals.

 

[Mjmannella]

We survived it when we had the Aquatics pack where we only ended up with 5 diving animals (remember, the gharial wasn't even updated then), I'm sure we'll survive it again when they give us a 7/8 birds pack.

Given that those only surmised to semi-aquatics, I would say that the smaller number is more excusable. Plus, there was (and still is) a lot potential for diving to be added to other animals. With flight there's only 2 possible candidates for that (the peafowl and flamingo), meaning the mechanic needs to rely on future DLC a lot more than diving.

I'm not saying people don't want the animals you mention, but given that the community has been asking for flying birds for the past two years it's smarter to give them a few flying birds than giving them more non flying birds

That would depend on if the time and cost investments for the mechanics required for said pitiful 7 (or 9) animals is something Frontier wants to do. And once you lock the mechanic behind DLC, you can't have other packs that in turn require pre-existing DLC to function. I personally don't see that working out.

And it's not like Frontier has to give us stuff that the vocal community clamours about. Planet Coaster fans have been begging for splash park content ala RCT3 for years and the closest they have are log river rides. I don't think it's a good practice to expect something because of vague "hints" or raw demand.

 

[markun]

A bit of a stream of consciousness on birds

I want birds and I’m certain they can do birds if they want to. As others have pointed out, things like toucans, parrots, owls, hornbills etc aren’t constantly whizzing about like humming birds. They perch, they might hop around, flap from one end of an aviary to another but in my opinion Frontier don’t need to give us animations for constant movement and every possible form of flight, it just isn’t necessary.

I don’t differentiate between habitat birds and aviary birds. I find it odd that people think ibis and spoonbill species could be kept outside an aviary. And increasingly the practice is to keep birds like flamingos, pelicans and cranes in aviaries.

The fact that we haven’t had things like pelicans, cranes, ducks and geese suggests to me that birds are indeed coming and once they arrive (possibly in a pack) they will continue to come in other DLCs.

However… there are quite a few significant zoos that don’t have huge bird collections and are very mammal focussed. Others might have so-called habitat birds like flamingos, ostriches and penguins but otherwise limit aviaries to a single tropical house with smaller birds rather than extensive bird houses, multiple aviaries or pheasantries.

Of the top of my head, these spring to mind

Dublin Zoo - 71 species of which 11 are birds including ostrich, Chilean flamingo, Humboldt penguin, ground hornbill.

Edinburgh Zoo - 125 species of which 15 are birds and on display. This includes cassowary, pelicans and 4 penguin species.

Borås Zoo - 61 species of which 9 are birds including ostrich, Humboldt penguin, greater flamingo and peafowl.

Kolmården - 72 species of which 10 are birds.

Wellington Zoo - 48 species of which 8 are birds including ostrich and penguin.

I could search further but don’t have much time now. The main Danish zoos are also pretty mammal focussed if I remember correctly.

 

[Leaf Productions]

I know this is quite a bit of a controversial take, but an aviary pack or DLC should include birds. Daring, I know, but it's something that I feel like must be said.

Would be quite miffed if we only get Kudu in a hypothetical Aviary Pack.

 

[SalamAnders]

The main Danish zoos are also pretty mammal focussed if I remember correctly.

At least those located away from the bigger cities in most cases have very few birds. Some of the city zoos got more, but still not a lot compared to many city zoos elsewhere in Europe.

 

[Iben]

meaning the mechanic needs to rely on future DLC a lot more than diving.

That is, if you limit an aviary DLC simply to flying. It's more than just that. Flying requires some form of covered habitat, which then can be applied to more animals than just birds.

That would depend on if the time and cost investments for the mechanics required for said pitiful 7 (or 9) animals is something Frontier wants to do.

In all fairness, that really could have been said about diving. Frontier could easily have limited the game to simply no diving animals at all. And in all fairness, I don't think they had planned to add diving to for instance the big cats if it wasn't for the communities input. So if we hadn't asked for it, I don't think as many base game animals would have gotten diving as we have today.

Besides, they've already put in the time and costs for the engine. It's an important thing to keep in mind that even if they still would have two different systems, the costs and time are lower because they've already done it before. Even if they'd redo the system from scratch for PZ, all the experience they gained from doing it for JWE allows you to cut down costs and time significantly.

And once you lock the mechanic behind DLC, you can't have other packs that in turn require pre-existing DLC to function. I personally don't see that working out.

I'm confused here. Frontier has never locked a mechanic behind a DLC. You don't need the Africa Pack to have digging for your Prairie Dogs in the North American Animal Pack. What's your point here?

And it's not like Frontier has to give us stuff that the vocal community clamours about. Planet Coaster fans have been begging for splash park content ala RCT3 for years and the closest they have are log river rides. I don't think it's a good practice to expect something because of vague "hints" or raw demand.

Of course not. I agree with that. I'm merely stating that you said that a habitat bird pack was the more likely of the two. My statement was that if Frontier was to do birds, they most likely would go for what their community wants the most, which is aviary birds. But it all stand and falls with the if they do birds of course.

I can think of some aquatic animals (penguin, seal, otter, sea lion, beaver, crocodile, caiman, walrus and few more). The aquatic pack with 4 animals didn't bring all of them, but It brought enough and the remaining ones have been easily added in new packs (we are still waiting for the capybara). Now we have a very good representation of aquatic animals in the game (not counting fish)

Certainly, but even back in the day people were saying that 5 animals wasn't going to be enough and we didn't know that we were going to get more aquatic animals. The same applies here. The argument that this might be the last year and that means that 8 birds isn't enough, is the exact same argument people made about the aquatics pack.

Whilst, just like back then, we have no clue whether or not this is indeed Planet Zoo's last year. On one hand we know that Planet Coaster got 12 DLCs, on the other hand we have Planet Zoo doing much better than Planet Coaster ever did financially. So we've got two conflicting pieces of information atm, making a good prediction isn't as simple as it was before.

However, with birds, the amount of different birds I can think of being a normal person without special knowledge, is much larger than aquatic animals. So if we only get 7 birds, there would be many more missing birds than aquatic animals were missing when the aquatic pack was released.

There sure are a lot of birds out there and the general public does know about quite a few, but I don't really see that as an argument that we need all of them right away. As long as the choices of birds are varied enough, you really do can cover a big enough basis to start with.

Like to give an example, it's not because general public knows about kookaburras, that we really need one right away. It's not because plenty of people know about macaws and the different species of macaws, that we can't just start with one.

So, I'm afraid that the game can end with a poor representation for birds which is not the case for aquatic animals.

In all honesty, I think it's going to be inevitable either way. Looking at other animals in the game, in terms of zoos, there are many animal groups that are poorly represented. Small mammals, monkeys, deer, etc. It's a difficult thing to do with these games, especially given that the same marketing logic that applies to zoos (big mammals being the most popular) also applies to zoo games.

The majority of zoo game players are animal lovers first and foremost, then you also have a bunch of people who really love making zoos and then you have another subset that really loves making realistic zoos. So unfortunately for the latter, the first dictate what gets a bigger representation.

All in all, this sums it all up for me when it comes to a possible aviary pack:

Is Frontier technically capable of having free flying birds that interact with custom made structures?
Yes. It's been done in Planet Coaster and in JWE2.
Is Frontier technically capable of having free flying birds flying space be contained to a user build area?
Yes. It's been done in JWE2.
Has Frontier in the past done more than just adding a few more animals here and there?
Yes. Ever since the Aquatics pack, Frontier has pretty consistently added new features, new behaviours and mechanics in all their past updates. Some of them going beyond what many people had expected they would do. (For instance: Meerkats were "never going to dig" or "just use an enrichment" according to a lot of community members)
Is all of this a guarantee that an Aviary pack will ever be a thing?
No. We know it's possible technically, we know that Frontier has actively been catering to their community and we know that they don't just do whatever's the easiest to do. All of that means that there certainly is a good chance for it to happen, but it is by no means a guarantee. However, if you want to argue that an aviary pack would be extremely unlikely or technically impossible, then you're actively ignoring some of the puzzle pieces that are currently on the table.

 

[Mjmannella]

That is, if you limit an aviary DLC simply to flying. It's more than just that. Flying requires some form of covered habitat, which then can be applied to more animals than just birds.

The only other application I can think of would be nocturnal stuff, which would then require a distinction between covers that permit light to pass or are totally opaque. Besides that, I don't see any other function covered habitats could have.

in all fairness, I don't think they had planned to add diving to for instance the big cats if it wasn't for the communities input. So if we hadn't asked for it, I don't think as many base game animals would have gotten diving as we have today.

Perhaps, though I figure that if there wasn't a roadmap of diving additions, they would've continued supporting the mechanic with 1.8. There's still animals that can take advantage of diving as part of their natural behaviour (tapirs, moose, and Nile monitor come to mind), which the vocal community has made quite apparent.

I'm confused here. Frontier has never locked a mechanic behind a DLC. You don't need the Africa Pack to have digging for your Prairie Dogs in the North American Animal Pack. What's your point here?

Should Frontier choose to not let the peafowl and flamingo fly, that limits aviary mechanics to the aviary pack. This is different from digging as the limited nature of that behaviour ultimately just makes an alternative form of ground movement than something you have the build around.

 

[Fini]

For my part, I would be happy about a handful of birds. Because a handful of birds is better than no birds at all.

If it's "only" 7/8, fine, I'm sure that our dear Leaf will start more with 7/8 birds than with none at all. And I don't mean that selfishly. Because what will the game be able to carry over decades? (when Frontier has discontinued support - so until we get a PZ2) it'll be guys like Leaf and Nick.
And no one knows how long Frontier is still working on PZ, for my part I hope "very long"

 

[markun]

The only other application I can think of would be nocturnal stuff, which would then require a distinction between covers that permit light to pass or are totally opaque. Besides that, I don't see any other function covered habitats could have.

Primates, cats, binturongs, anything that climbs. Clouded leopards for example really shouldn’t be kept in anything other than a covered habitat.

 

[Mjmannella]

That limitation is already done by imposing maximum required fence heights and distinctly unclimbable fence types. No need to build a roof for them.

 

[Iben]

The only other application I can think of would be nocturnal stuff, which would then require a distinction between covers that permit light to pass or are totally opaque. Besides that, I don't see any other function covered habitats could have.

I mean covered habitats as habitats covered with a mesh roof. Which, to an extant is possible with the current mesh pieces, but anyone will tell you that that is very hard to do once you want anything with a more special shape.

Mesh covered habitats would add a lot to the game from big cats to monkeys. It isn't neccesary as you added, but it can be used for it and I wouldn't ad all be surprised if Frontier made their system so that they could interact with them.

Perhaps, though I figure that if there wasn't a roadmap of diving additions, they would've continued supporting the mechanic with 1.8. There's still animals that can take advantage of diving as part of their natural behaviour (tapirs, moose, and Nile monitor come to mind), which the vocal community has made quite apparent.

Oh I think there certainly was a roadmap. I do think it got extended with community requests.

On the other hand, with the exception of nile monitors, I don't think there are more species that actually need diving in a zoo setting. And that comes from someone who previously wanted to see tapirs diving. But given that neither tapirs or moose dive in zoos nor that there are exhibits that are catered for them to dive, I don't think they are necessary and I can understand that in 1.8 these animals weren't updated for diving.

Should Frontier choose to not let the peafowl and flamingo fly, that limits aviary mechanics to the aviary pack. This is different from digging as the limited nature of that behaviour ultimately just makes an alternative form of ground movement than something you have the build around.

Not really. It would limit it to DLCs, which other DLCs have done. Features like that, whether it is digging or diving, is never kept specifically to one DLC. Based on their current trackrecord, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to suspect that even if base game animals didn't get flying, the aviary mechanics would be limited to an aviary pack.

A perfect example is the underwater herbivore feeder. Whilst no other animal has gotten it so far, not even base game animals, it still came with the free update rather than with the NAAP. It's simply how Frontier tackles these kind of concepts, regardless of what type of feature it is.

 

[markun]

That limitation is already done by imposing maximum required fence heights and distinctly unclimbable fence types. No need to build a roof for them.

In real life you need a roof.

 

[Mjmannella]

A perfect example is the underwater herbivore feeder. Whilst no other animal has gotten it so far, not even base game animals, it still came with the free update rather than with the NAAP. It's simply how Frontier tackles these kind of concepts, regardless of what type of feature it is.

That's rather unusual. The optimist in me is holding out that it was added to the base later so other animals could use it (namely tapirs in the context of the base game). I can't really think of why they'd add something to the base game where no base game animals use it. For lack of a better term, it seems rather misleading in its current state? I can't help but feel like the stance is, "want to use this special feeder? Go buy our DLC first!", which is not exactly the most inviting practice.

In real life you need a roof.

For better or worse, Planet Zoo is not bound by constraints of the real world (even if it sometimes acts like it is).

 

[SotF]

We survived it when we had the Aquatics pack where we only ended up with 5 diving animals (remember, the gharial wasn't even updated then), I'm sure we'll survive it again when they give us a 7/8 birds pack.

There's no way to ever satisfy everyone in this community, even if we got a pack with 20 birds. So there's no point in aiming at trying to please everyone. And given that people really want aviary birds, it's much smarter to give them 7/8 ones then giving them 7/8 birds that aren't aviary birds at all.

I'm not saying people don't want the animals you mention, but given that the community has been asking for flying birds for the past two years it's smarter to give them a few flying birds than giving them more non flying birds

I expect that an aviary pack would be a 4/5 pack, mainly because of the scenery and other things that would need to be used as part of it. You kind of need the scenery and other things at the start of something like that. Perhaps that could be followed with a 7/8 one later on to add a lot more at one time

 

[ElectricMonk]

I expect that an aviary pack would be a 4/5 pack, mainly because of the scenery and other things that would need to be used as part of it. You kind of need the scenery and other things at the start of something like that. Perhaps that could be followed with a 7/8 one later on to add a lot more at one time

I don’t see why you’d need anything more than some netting panels, enrichment items and maybe build pieces. These would likely be added in the accompanying free update.

 

[jcp011c]

A perfect example is the underwater herbivore feeder. Whilst no other animal has gotten it so far, not even base game animals, it still came with the free update rather than with the NAAP. It's simply how Frontier tackles these kind of concepts, regardless of what type of feature it is.

Great example. By having the feeder be added to the base game, they can expand on it with base game animals if they choose (though I'm not sure there's a lot of diving herbivores as yet) and also, additional DLC animals can utilize it. As opposed to having the feeder in DLC, and having other animals that are coded to use it, but can't because you don't have the NA DLC.

There's some solid potential for that feeder, but I don't want to get off topic from the aviaries. Suffice to say including some or all of the aviary parts in the base game would make sense from an "expanding in the future" train of thought.

 

[SotF]

I don’t see why you’d need anything more than some netting panels, enrichment items and maybe build pieces. These would likely be added in the accompanying free update.

New gates and things for the different themes are a big thing there.