Feminizing Imperial Ranks

[Rubbernuke]

Sure, that's fine if it's intentional and not an unconcious reflection of latent sexism in today's society.

We will never know really. But as far as how the Empire was set up it makes perfect sense as well as that legacy coming back to haunt the Empire in various ways (Marlinism, what happens when you run out of male heirs, and what happens when one turns up in that vacuum).

The part I disagree with is that it the fiction itself can be considered to be isolated from real life

Then this is a misunderstanding- my beef is that real life ethics leak into fictional ethics-i.e. one directs how the other is expressed. What I see increasingly is "whether or not it literally models real life is moot here" is not moot, and that companies and individuals are forced into warping make believe to reflect current social norms.

 

[Fake Newts]

as far as how the Empire was set up it makes perfect sense as well as that legacy coming back to haunt the Empire in various ways (Marlinism, what happens when you run out of male heirs, and what happens when one turns up in that vacuum).

I'll defer to your superior knowledge of the game lore, something I don't really follow or care about despite having played since 2015.

Then this is a misunderstanding- my beef is that real life ethics leak into fictional ethics-i.e. one directs how the other is expressed. What I see increasingly is "whether or not it literally models real life is moot here" is not moot, and that companies and individuals are forced into warping make believe to reflect current social norms.

You're conflating two different ideas here. Things like political correctness and affirmative action etc are real-world political concerns that affect corporations' marketing campaigns and, say, panel show hiring policies etc. This clearly isn't the place to discuss those issues.

However literature and art are inherently linked to issues of real life ethics and reflect both the individual viewpoint of the artist and the society they're working in. This doesn't mean writers have to come to a consensus on the ethical issues, nor does it mean they have to write "nice" fictional worlds wherein people aren't oppressed - that would be ridiculous. On the contary, art gets interesting when it tackles these issues. Nobody's saying we should write slavery out of Django Unchained for example... then there'd be literally no movie. Should we write primogeniture out of Dune? No, that's dumb. Are both of these works of fiction influenced by the social and historical context they were created in? Yes. They are.

EDIT:

Again the crux of this argument seems to be that some people think Frontier's omission of feminine titles is a mistake, oversight or otherwise the result of bigotry in today's world. Others (like you and maybe I*) seem to think it was written this way intentionally as an artistic device to highlight or show something about the future world they're depicting (with our world as the inevitable point of comparison). If it's the former, then that's an IRL problem. If it's the latter it's their artistic prerogative, hence:

They could explain why there are no feminine Imperial titles in-universe in the codex, or indeed add them in if it were simply an omission due to laziness (along with an 'our bad' memo, preferably). Either of these options would be acceptable simply by allaying doubts that they made a conscious artistic decision in context.

*I genuinely don't know how much I trust Frontier to have put thought into this... and it really does make all the difference whether they have or not.

 

[Ian Phillips]

To maybe clear up some points raised:

Frontier have indeed thought about the naming conventions and they are written up in their "bible" about the Elite universe (to which we do not have access, but some writers of the books have had access to)

 

[Fake Newts]

Frontier have indeed thought about the naming conventions

Good to know, thanks.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I'll defer to your superior knowledge of the game lore, something I don't really follow or care about despite having played since 2015.

To be fair the lore of ED has chopped and changed so much its hard to pin a definitive answer and that only codex entries are now 'real'.

You're conflating two different ideas here. Things like political correctness and affirmative action etc are real-world political concerns that affect corporations' marketing campaigns and, say, panel show hiring policies etc. This clearly isn't the place to discuss those issues.

However literature and art are inherently linked to issues of real life ethics and reflect both the individual viewpoint of the artist and the society they're working in. This doesn't mean writers have to come to a consensus on the ethical issues, nor does it mean they have to write "nice" fictional worlds wherein people aren't oppressed - that would be ridiculous. On the contary, art gets interesting when it tackles these issues. Nobody's saying we should write slavery out of Django Unchained for example... then there'd be literally no movie. Should we write primogeniture out of Dune? No, that's dumb. Are both of these works of fiction influenced by the social and historical context they were created in? Yes. They are.

EDIT:

Again the crux of this argument seems to be that some people think Frontier's omission of feminine titles is a mistake, oversight or otherwise the result of bigotry in today's world. Others (like you and maybe I*) seem to think it was written this way intentionally as an artistic device to highlight or show something about the future world they're depicting (with our world as the inevitable point of comparison). If it's the former, then that's an IRL problem. If it's the latter it's their artistic prerogative, hence:

I'm not conflating the two issues- I'm just pointed out that there is an overlap in thinking. People are unsure on what FD intended and/ or want gender neutral / female equivalents which go against the background lore of the game. The two issues are already mixed up, and only FDs lore masters can really give a definite answer.

The problem is FD went to a lot of trouble initially with lore only to forget about it, so a lot of this is personal interpretation. Also note Elite was created in the 80s with Thatcherism and ultra consumerism in mind (something it captures really well). Beyond that, the franchise uses loose interpretations of history to base things on.

 

[Erei]

To maybe clear up some points raised:

Frontier have indeed thought about the naming conventions and they are written up in their "bible" about the Elite universe (to which we do not have access, but some writers of the books have had access to)

Do we have anything official ?
As pointed earlier, in French, the title change depending on gender. Which indicate not only that it was made that way (IE we have the proper programming hooks for such a feature) and the translators were not told they were gender neutral.

 

[Northpin]

Wiki is saying that Empire is based on Rome dignitas and Japan bushido

This article seems quite articulate on the matter

The Holy Roman empire, however had two Kings within its boarders
the Romans also had client kings.


I have had a hard time reconciling the Imperial naval titles with the Roman like Structure
This is the best I can manage

The Society as Presented is we have the Emperor at the Top
The Imperial Family and Cadet Branches carry the title of Prince or Princess
Then We have the Senators, each of who control a System (or more)
They then have powerful Patrons beneath them
Who in turn have Cliens under them
Who have Citizens under them
Who have Imperial Slaves under them
Allied Foreigners fall somewhere between citizens and Imperial Slaves, with Imperial slaves being citizens of might have rights allied foreigners might not.

They all follow the Patron Client system with each tier being the Patron of the Tier it is above and the client of the tier it is below; and is a copy of Classical Rome under Augustus
This would be the Norm in the Patronage Minor factions.
Corporate Minor Factions are imperial corporations where the Board of Directors/CEO would likely be Patrons and a Senator.
Dictatorships are by appointment of the Senate and thus likely a powerful Patron grated "imperium" over all operations of the minor faction; Dictator was a position in Rome after all, thought here it is used in key systems usually Industrial systems producing arms, so a Dictator is appointed to ensure there is no destruction to the arms and logistics networks.

There are Feudal realms in the Empire but they are Neo-feudalist suggesting they are several powerful corporations in a feudal structure.
"A faction that actively engages in activity to ensure that Imperial Corporations are ceded more control over the day to day running of Imperial Worlds "

However none of this suggests the titles awarded by the Imperial Navy are connected with actual peerage or land.
If it was this would be moving the Empire from a Classical Roman structure to a HRE like one; which would be fine on its own, but does not seem to reconcile with the Patron Client system we see as well establish, but in the lore and the majority of Imperial Minor factions being a Patronage.

We know the Federal naval ranks are granted as part of the Federal Naval Auxiliary/Reserve; to denote the Mercenary/freelance nature of Pilots' Federation commanders.
Apply the same to the Empire and they are granting titles as if the Pilot was a Foederati, an allied Barbarian.
cf. the historic Foederati and the "allies" that fought along side Rome
Thus one is granted the Dignitas and Auctoritas but no land or imperium, based on your title as a Allied Foreigner.

Thus when you are an Earl in the Imperial naval Reserve, you are granted the Courtesy, Dignity and deference of a Foreign official with the Rank of an Earl, ala the Client Kings we mentioned before.
This allows allied Client Kings (and other ranks) to fit on both a Empire and the Patron Client system

Presumably some Imperial Bureaucrats codified all foreign dignitaries into the 14 ranks we have at some point.
Being Imperials they made sure that what ever one is one is subordinate to the Dignity of the Emperor, and probably deliberately chose Feudal ranks to separate themselves from the Federation Further, but also to differentiate from actual Imperial society to make sure they were still foreigners. "You may be a allied client King and we will treat you with the courtesy and deference that title infers but you are still not one of us", the archetypical Imperial insult in a compliment.

This also explains why the first imperial rank is "Outsider" as you are an Ally but considered an outsider, a foreigner but a known one, vs. having "None" which means you are not an ally to the imperial Navy.


Naval rank being the relationship to the Imperial Navy, and Major faction Rep being the relationship with the non military structure of Imperial society.

Having a Naval rank, even Outsider, is a way of recognising your status as a Client to the Imperial Navy, you serve the Navy as you would you Patron , and it turn they reward and protect you as their client, such as access to various Gutamaya Fleet yard ships.

---

I should add that when regular Imperial Military figure appear in Galnet, be it the Imperial Navy, Imperial Naval Infantry or Imperial Guard, we see that they have "regular" ranks of General, Captain and Sergeant.
This suggests that the regular Imperial Military has a different rank structure to the Irregular forces the Commanders, whom are granted the titles, join.

Several NPCs for Imperial Player Minor Factions have an Admiral at the top as opposed to a Titled peer

 

[Alexium67]

Excuse me for dumb question. I'm not so skilled in English naming etc. What kind of words meet us on the "mail-slot" of every Imperial station? I mean "Bask in Her glory" or something else. I think it is about Arissa. But why not the Emperor?

 

[Fake Newts]

The problem is FD went to a lot of trouble initially with insert feature only to forget about it

Surely they would never do such a thing?! Oh... wait.

Also note Elite was created in the 80s with Thatcherism and ultra consumerism in mind (something it captures really well)

At least it continues to do one thing very effectively, yeah.

 

[Erei]

Let's see it another way then :
-lore can be rewritten. No matter what we do, the stories we make reflect the current society. Tolkien's book have little women in them, many Lovecraft stories are not published because he was very racist, Tintin is full of colonialism and so on. Tolkien societies are not patriarchal by design (except for the dwarves), they are because it was not something he thought of. Elite is from 1984, it was also a different time.
-if it's not an issue for you, why do you care ? Half the poster in there have male ingame avatar. Your title wouldn't change. Why would you care if another player had a different tile you will literally never see ?

Wiki is saying that Empire is based on Rome dignitas and Japan bushido

This article seems quite articulate on the matter

The player you quote mixed Roman Empire era titles and Holy Roman (German) Empire era ones, which are quite different in time period and organisation (no matter what the Habsburg would say). It's kind of confusing.
Rome had some female version of titles. King (Rex) vs Queen (Regina). Emperor vs Empress, which varied a lot but always existed (Augusta, Caesarea,...).

The Empire titles are also based on medieval Europe titles. It's obvious since they are not in latin, and we don't have any japanese titles in there.

Excuse me for dumb question. I'm not so skilled in English naming etc. What kind of words meets us on the "mail-slot" of every Imperial station? I mean "Bask in Her glory" or something else. I think it is about Arissa. But why not the Emperor?

Arissa IS the Emperor.

 

[Stonelaughter]

I was thinking about this too today. The game should recognize if you play a female or male charackter and change it accordingly.

for example
Rank 8 = Viscountess
Rank 9 = Countess
Rank 12 = Duchess
Rank 13 = Princess
Rank 14 = Queen

There is an argument, going around, that adding "ess" to a word doesn't feminise, it belittles, diminishes. In older Western societies, women were very much ornaments and property; a Princess was something you married off to make money or cement alliances for instance. A Prince however was a proud warrior and heir; saviour of simpering dimwit princesses from towers.

Personally - I like the new trend where an Emperor is the same word whichever gender they are; they're also doing this with actors in the "real" world. Maybe instead of feminising, they ought to be removing gender-specific ranks altogether; get rid of King and Duke and replace them with something more inclusive, which doesn't give you a new badge to say what shape your genitals are.

 

[Northpin]

The player you quote mixed Roman Empire era titles and Holy Roman (German) Empire era ones, which are quite different in time period and organisation (no matter what the Habsburg would say). It's kind of confusing.

The link is the Dignitas concept and the way Romans were treating their barbaric allies
THe fact that first rank in the Imperial Auxiliary navy is Outsider is quite revealing

Also, except Emperor and Prince/Princess (which relates to the ruling family) i have not been able to find any other imperial (feudal) titles
They have Senators, Patrons, Clients, Citizens and Imperial Slaves

The ranks awarded to independent pilots (which in the Imperial society might have less rights than the Citizens or even the Imperials Slaves) seems like mockery (King, lololol)

 

[Rubbernuke]

Let's see it another way then :
-lore can be rewritten. No matter what we do, the stories we make reflect the current society. Tolkien's book have little women in them, many Lovecraft stories are not published because he was very racist, Tintin is full of colonialism and so on. Tolkien societies are not patriarchal by design (except for the dwarves), they are because it was not something he thought of. Elite is from 1984, it was also a different time.
-if it's not an issue for you, why do you care ? Half the poster in there have male ingame avatar. Your title wouldn't change. Why would you care if another player had a different tile you will literally never see ?

The player you quote mixed Roman Empire era titles and Holy Roman (German) Empire era ones, which are quite different in time period and organisation (no matter what the Habsburg would say). It's kind of confusing.
Rome had some female version of titles. King (Rex) vs Queen (Regina). Emperor vs Empress, which varied a lot but always existed (Augusta, Caesarea,...).

The Empire titles are also based on medieval Europe titles. It's obvious since they are not in latin, and we don't have any japanese titles in there.

Arissa IS the Emperor.

Lore can be rewritten, but as it stands it (having a woman as a traditionally male ruler) adds tension and depth to the Empires ongoing lore. Will traditionalists be happy, how will they react when the male heir is ready, how will ALD and Aisling react (will they have kids, change the Empires rules etc).

Removing that point of contention takes away that moral ambiguity as well as something that separates the Empire from the Feds and Alliance.

Its a lot like the faux rage over the transexual 'mix it up' poster in CP2077- CP2077 is set in a world where everyone and everything is hyper commercialised, and this brings together cynical exploitation of gender, sex and soft drinks. Its totally valid in the context of the game, but some people went crazy. Gender in the Empire is the same here- in a civilisation that spans the galaxy you have many peoples with differing views on how to live.

 

[Erei]

The link is the Dignitas concept and the way Romans were treating their barbaric allies
THe fact that first rank in the Imperial Auxiliary navy is Outsider is quite revealing

Also, except Emperor and Prince/Princess (which relates to the ruling family) i have not been able to find any other imperial (feudal) titles
They have Senators, Patrons, Clients, Citizens and Imperial Slaves

The game use feudal English titles. Not Roman titles. The Empire is mostly based on some romanticized version of the Roman Empire (the same way the current day USA and fictional Federation are based on romanticized Roman Republic).

Imperial rank :
-Outsider : not latin. It's a common noun, not really a title IRL
-British title (old, no longer used) : Serf : Medieval era "title", the lowest of people. Gender neutral (comes from servus/serva in latin).
-Master : male word, nowadays gender neutral. An old title for expert craftsmen. Female couldn't become master in any craft, until late in history, at which point the name became gender neutral.
-British title : Squire : Male name only.
-Knight : Not a nobility title. Gender neutral word, there were female knight early in history and England (see here : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Order_of_the_Garter). A knight is called "sir", female "dame".
-British title : Lord : female is lady.
-British title : Baron : Female : baroness
-British title : Viscount : Female : Viscountess
-British title : Count : Female : Countess
-British title : Earl. From a Norse word (jarl). No female title
Marquis : French title.The English title is "Marquess". The female is Marquise (as in french) or Marchionesse
-British title : Duke : Female : Duchess. Traditionally a military leader title (from Dux, general in latin).
-British title : Prince : Female : princess
-British title : King : female : queen.

As you can see, the majority of those titles are from the Feudal English hierarchy. Considering Fdev is from England, it seems reasonable to think it's linked. Almost all of them have a female version, which is/was used in the English nobility.

As for latin, they also had female words : Patrons were called "patronus" male, and "patrona" female. Cliens male, and clienta, female. Latin citizen is civis, it's gender neutral. Slave is servus, female serva. Senator is the only male only title in the list.

The ranks awarded to independent pilots (which in the Imperial society might have less rights than the Citizens or even the Imperials Slaves) seems like mockery (King, lololol)

It's an old feudal thing. Essentially, when someone became super strong, the ruler would give them big title (and all the financial stuff associated) but none of the military and leadership obligations. It was a way to placate them while still keep the rule. Those titles where not hereditary.
Either that or they would assassinate them. Or both^^

So, in short, the player is King, but only as a honorific way. You don't actually hold any power. But you do get all the financial advantages (in this case, access to ships). There could be unseen advantages, like maybe you don't pay tax if you own land in an imperial planet, that kind of stuff.

Lore can be rewritten, but as it stands it (having a woman as a traditionally male ruler) adds tension and depth to the Empires ongoing lore. Will traditionalists be happy, how will they react when the male heir is ready, how will ALD and Aisling react (will they have kids, change the Empires rules etc).

Removing that point of contention takes away that moral ambiguity as well as something that separates the Empire from the Feds and Alliance.

Its a lot like the faux rage over the transexual 'mix it up' poster in CP2077- CP2077 is set in a world where everyone and everything is hyper commercialised, and this brings together cynical exploitation of gender, sex and soft drinks. Its totally valid in the context of the game, but some people went crazy. Gender in the Empire is the same here- in a civilisation that spans the galaxy you have many peoples with differing views on how to live.

Doesn't change anything for the player nobility title though. None of them are linked to gender limitation, as proven by the fact the player can earn them the same way no matter his/her gender.
Since they are not hereditary (I assume), I don't think they care much about succession rules on those titles.


The CP77 outrage is entirely different and irrelevant TBH.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The CP77 outrage is entirely different and irrelevant TBH.

Its the same IMO, because it shows in game lore being secondary to pressure exerted by some players, even when its justified in the context of the game.

 

[Northpin]

-Outsider : not latin. It's a common noun, not really a title IRL

you haven't read that article i listed

Imperial rank :

Indeed.
Ranks, Military - no militaries is using gender specific ranks (or suffixes). Certainly not in Elite

Why they chose the male counterparts when availanle? Maybe, as Rubrernuke said, because it's a patriarchal society at it's roots - even tho they have a female Emperor and there are a lot of female Senators

 

[Erei]

Its the same IMO, because it shows in game lore being secondary to pressure exerted by some players, even when its justified in the context of the game.

No. In CP77 the issue was some people though transgender were purposefully wrongly represented, because of the leaked ingame ad. They were wrong, the picture was one of a cyberpunk ad, which as you mentioned, was about objectification of everything for the sake of money. IE extreme capitalism/cyberpunk, where everything is good for money.
In truth, in CP77 you can play as a transgender if you wish, and there are no discrimination toward the player, no matter his choice of representation as a character.

Meanwhile, even if it's minor, in ED there is a small discrimination toward the player through those ranks. If the player play a female character, they will not have the proper female title which are the norm in English language, and the English nobility title hierarchy, upon which the ingame title are based upon. He, or she, will get treated as male for the game, when it comes to titles. On the other hand, gender are not misrepresented for NPCs and ingame lore, where a lot of characters are female (even if it's not exactly 50%, it's hard to count that), and they aren't mocked (ingame) or anything. The only exception is Arissa and the Empire, and it's incredibly rarely mentioned. In fact, I think it's only mentioned once in ED, in an old galnet news (I had to dig that up). It's likely a way to represent female more in the game, and to introduce it into the lore. Thus linking to "stories are representative of the era they are made and need to evolve with the society".

It's literally the opposite in essence.

you haven't read that article i listed

Outsider was a barbarian for a latin. Everyone that wasn't greek or roman was a barbarian. Outsider is an english word though.
I know. I'm glad that's all you noted from the entire paragraph I wrote though.

 

[Chaparral]

I asked for this back in 2015. It didn't happen then due to the mission system design being unable to cope with the required variants in pronouns.

Cheers,

Drew.

I wonder if a non-gendered pronoun or phrase could be substituted. "Valued ally" "Esteemed ally" "Venerated ally" "Your highness".

 

[Erei]

I wonder if a non-gendered pronoun or phrase could be substituted. "Valued ally" "Esteemed ally" "Venerated ally" "Your highness".

Made me double check, and in French they are all male (everything is male only, even for explorer/trader.. rank). In french, nouns are never gender neutral like in English. It's either male or female, and the default for gender neutral is male.
Someone said it was, but apparently was referencing a fanmade site who translated them.

So I guess Drew explanations was correct.



And some male player will be very happy to know the women can't have their title ! All is right in the world

 

[Rubbernuke]

Meanwhile, even if it's minor, in ED there is a small discrimination toward the player

The whole point is you are aligning with an in game patriarchal superpower, so..er....

Fiction allows rules to be different. Cyberpunks in game companies exploit in game situations, so does ED use how the Empire sees things.