DK2 and Elite gave me 'Upgraditis'

[simphe]

Hi folks! Like many here, I've played all of the Elite games from the beginning, and they've always been my favourite without a doubt. I've been following the dev diaries and news letters since the start, and last week I impulsively bought a DK2 and an X52 so I can play on my old Core i7 950 (x52 mobo). I was completely blown away when I plugged in the rift and played through the tutorials with Beta 3.03 and now 3.04, but I had to run the game on low settings, which still looks totally amazing tbh. Since then I've spent more time upgrading and becoming obsessive about frame rates and latency than I have actually properly testing the game (because of my newly found frame rate OCD).

I thought some of you might be interested in hearing my hardware configs and performance perceptions with them if you're wondering how your hardware will run Elite. In each case, the performance was with me sitting in the hanger in the tutorial 'Travel', and then heading out into the training system to check out the planets and asteroid rings. I don't tend to over clock anything either...

Starting point:
Core I7 950 (3.06Ghz)
MSI GTX 590
Mobo: Asus Sabertooth X58
HD: SATA (old fashioned) spinning HD
12Gb DDR3
Auzentech Prelude 7.1

On low settings, with the above hardware I was able to get very smooth and non-vomit inducing game play with the rift! With the High and Mid presets there was a LOT of lag and the frame rate was very low with FPS under 20, but on the low settings, the frame rate appeared to be totally and completely smooth, with some initial judder after spawning, or pauses when approaching a planet. So, if any of you are wondering whether you can run the rift on a 5 year old PC, the answer is totally yes, but keep the settings down. Initially I was getting unplayable frame rates on all settings, but I discovered with MSI afterburner that my card was running at 100 degrees C and throttling back, so I made a new fan profile for it and took the side off my case and it was then happy (also, my 3d mark 11 graphics score went from 2500 to 9000!).

My curiosity started to get the better of me with the high graphics settings though because I want to experience Elite in the best way possible. It was possible for me to play on high in open space, but the lag is just too much for the rift. At this point I upgraded the GTX590 to try to increase the frame rates, and also put in an SSD to try to reduce the lag approaching planets. New hardware:

Samsung 840 EVO 500Gb SSD
2 x GTX 980 in SLI

(also removed Auzentech prelude because there was no longer any room to access the PCI slot...)

Now I find that there's a lot more lag when I first spawn in the travel tutorial. It takes about 5 seconds before everything smoothes out, but when it does, it's now totally completely smooth in space, asteroid fields, in the station, with no judder on the high settings. So, overall this upgrade was a good result, and I recommend these GPUs to any 'rifters' who want to run Elite with the high presets. I was hoping that the SSD would improve pauses when approaching planets however, and I haven't really noticed any difference in performance in Elite since installing it (other than Windows loading very quickly). Also, (a bit OT) the on-board sound from the mobo seems really lacking though, so I've ordered a sound blaster zxr.

Although I've largely got what I wanted, I had Afterburner open while testing, and I did discover that the GPUs were never exceeding 70% usage. I also found that some of the processor cores were maxing out occasionally, and so while this proves that an old computer can run Elite on high settings (if you stuff enough GPUs in there!), it doesn't make best use of the hardware and the old CPU will cause a bottleneck.

I've now ordered a Core i7 4790, and a Sabertooth Z97 mobo, in the hope that it'll help with the initial spawn judder and reduce lag when approaching planets etc. If anyone's interested in whether that makes a difference, I'll post an update.

 

[thafred]

HI,

I´m also playing on an older CPU (Core i7 920 @ 4ghz) and recently got a GTX970 to play ED on the Rift.
My experience is that I mostly get smooth performance. Normal Stations and Ice asteroid Fields work smooth with 75fps but I get framerate problems in some stations like in Wyrd system (Orbis station with Glass Domes/Plants) and in most resource sites...really anoying judder and I play everything on Low! Maybe I need another 970 in SLR but I´m afraid of micro judder(?)...at least Oculus warned that SLI isn´t working properly with the Rift and we need to wait for NVidia VR Sli drivers. Do you see any problems/judder with small head movements while using SLI ?

Initialy I also thought that my CPU might be weak or the PCI-E Bus might be too slow (only PCI-x 2.0 on X58) but testing in 3dMark Firestrike revealed that my GTX970 is on par with other identical GPU´s in modern systems (like 300 points difference) so I don´t think that it maters much. Do you run an overclock on the 950? maybe a few Mhz helps because I never saw my CPU at 100% usage in ED.

I know that you already ordered a new board and processor and I´m sure you will see an improvement but I really doubt that it will be earth shattering. anyway keep us updated! I´d be really interested if the difference between i7 950 ad 4790 is as large as the investment suggests.

My guess is that the engines optimization is at fault and that my system should be more than capable to render smooth 75fps everywhere on Medium in the Rift maybe...or not

oh, on the matter of SSD vs HDD for Gaming .. never saw any big improvement in running Games of an SSD unless you count 2 sec off loading time as important.. with the Operating System it´s another matter entirely

good flying!
Fred

P.s: I forgot: the Tutorials run way smoother for me than the Game (Online Solo) does, especialy asteroid fields!

 

[Foxis]

Interesting!

We recently built a PC solely for VR with an Intel 4790K and a single GTX980. My main question is wether a second GTX980 in SLI will make any difference for ED? I was under the impression that dual GPUs make a very modest difference (if any) for games that are not optimized at a driver level by Nvidia? Have you tested a single 980 vs. 2 in SLI and if so what were the differences?

I should note that I find ED to be very smooth and stable on our system and it is accurate to say that the frame rate never drops below 75 in normal play. The only stuttering I see is that which occurs on all systems (closing in on your destination in SC and other situations were it is most likely due to content being streamed in). Oh, and the galaxy map is not perfectly smooth, but again I would guess that is not a problem with the GPU but rather with the map's implementation.

Anyway, if you have info re 1 vs. 2 GTX980 I am very interested!

(Edit: Forgot to mention that we run the DK2 on the above setup. All through an Asus Z97 Deluxe and Windows 8.1)

 

[Wolfox]

I would go only for the GPU upgrade!
Why? Because Elite is using 32bit then in using only 4gb RAM out of your memory
Because CV will probably need 90hz >=90fps

I have 2 options:
980 4gb/8gb
or
Xbox One and GTA5

 

[simphe]

Hi Fred,

I don't think there's much difference between the GTX970 and 980 (although I'm no authority), and given that we have similar CPUs at the mo, hopefully adding an extra 970 will give you a big boost in FPS, and enough to increase your graphics settings. I'd have thought you should be able to get mid settings working though? Still, it's a big investment to make so might not be worth the risk if it doesn't pay off, but at least the 900 series scales up well, so it should give you a big difference.

I don't get any micro judder that I've noticed when moving my head about, slow or fast - that's all silky smooth, but it does seem less smooth if I look up at the stars (keeping my head still) and roll the ship. I've not tried it without an SLI GPU setup though (590 is dual GPU) so I don't know whether that's normal or not. I only noticed it when I was really looking for defects though, and when playing the game normally it isn't an issue. Regarding the VR SLi drivers, I've been unable to find much information on it apart from speculation. There's an article from NVidia (I'm sure you've read it already but it won't let me put in links) which talks about it but everyone else just seems to be speculating. Practically speaking though, I've not had any real issue with Elite Dangerous and SLI on the old SLI config or the new 980 one. Afterburner shows that both GPUs are being used equally too (although maybe that's why they're running at 70% max!?).

I agree that the PCIe bus being 2.0 doesn't make a difference after doing some research, and my score with the 590 was similar to other systems too. I didn't overclock the 590, although the CPU thing is only an issue with the 980. I tend not to overclock anything because I'm paranoid about instability, although I'm probably worrying about nothing because the manufacturers expect it these days.

I'm not expecting miracles from the CPU and mobo upgrade either. I don't really need to upgrade them but there's always that nagging thought that the GPU is running at 70%. It seems to happen in 3DMark 11 also. It'll be interesting to see how that changes after the upgrade. I'll let you know.

I didn't notice any difference in smoothness between the tutorials and online solo mode using the GTX 590, although I'll retest it with the 980s to too. I did notice a big difference when in the multiplayer mode though. When in SC, it was VERY juddery on the low settings when moving my head about.

Thanks for the feedback re SSD. It's reassuring to know it's not just me who hasn't really noticed a difference in game!

When I've got a mo, I'll go to the Wyrd system and let you know how my frame rate is there (my first mission!)
Happy flying

Simon

 

[simphe]

Interesting!

We recently built a PC solely for VR with an Intel 4790K and a single GTX980. My main question is wether a second GTX980 in SLI will make any difference for ED? I was under the impression that dual GPUs make a very modest difference (if any) for games that are not optimized at a driver level by Nvidia? Have you tested a single 980 vs. 2 in SLI and if so what were the differences?

I should note that I find ED to be very smooth and stable on our system and it is accurate to say that the frame rate never drops below 75 in normal play. The only stuttering I see is that which occurs on all systems (closing in on your destination in SC and other situations were it is most likely due to content being streamed in). Oh, and the galaxy map is not perfectly smooth, but again I would guess that is not a problem with the GPU but rather with the map's implementation.

Anyway, if you have info re 1 vs. 2 GTX980 I am very interested!

(Edit: Forgot to mention that we run the DK2 on the above setup. All through an Asus Z97 Deluxe and Windows 8.1)

Interesting idea! I'll give it a go this evening. I'm running a dk2 also. Maybe stuttering I'm getting might be less if I run a single card. I should be ok to just disable SLI in the control panel right?

 

[simphe]

I would go only for the GPU upgrade!
Why? Because Elite is using 32bit then in using only 4gb RAM out of your memory
Because CV will probably need 90hz >=90fps

I have 2 options:
980 4gb/8gb
or
Xbox One and GTA5

Why does life have to throw us such tough choices!? I'd suggest doing both GTA5 is likely to give you the last amount of hassle and will be fully optimised for the hardware at least - but where's the fun in that (apart from obviously playing GTA of course!)?

 

[Foxis]

Interesting idea! I'll give it a go this evening. I'm running a dk2 also. Maybe stuttering I'm getting might be less if I run a single card. I should be ok to just disable SLI in the control panel right?

I have no idea as I personally have never run SLI and the PC guy (who specced the rig and put it together) is not here today. I normally live happily in my little Apple-bubble...

 

[Iskariot]

DK2 and Elite gave me 'Upgraditis'

I know what you mean I just ordered the parts for my new system and a Saitek X55.
To be fair though Elite D is not the only game I upgrade for. There's also Assassin's Creed Unity, Far Cry 4 and GTA V.

Core i7-5820
ASUS X99-DELUXE Mainboard
16 GB DDR 4 Corsair Vengeance LPX 2800 MHz
Asus STRIX-GTX980-DC2OC-4GD5
I also added some Hitachi HDD and Samsung SSD in the mix

I do not own an Oculus Rift... yet. I will wait for a retail version.
On the other hand I have my doubts, because I don't think the rift will be usable for the non-flying part of the game in the near future and I do not like the idea of having to take off the rift if I leave the pilot's seat.

I have 2 options:
980 4gb/8gb
or
Xbox One and GTA5

I'd say buy the 980
Wait for the PC version of GTA V

 

[simphe]

Interesting!

We recently built a PC solely for VR with an Intel 4790K and a single GTX980. My main question is wether a second GTX980 in SLI will make any difference for ED? I was under the impression that dual GPUs make a very modest difference (if any) for games that are not optimized at a driver level by Nvidia? Have you tested a single 980 vs. 2 in SLI and if so what were the differences?

I should note that I find ED to be very smooth and stable on our system and it is accurate to say that the frame rate never drops below 75 in normal play. The only stuttering I see is that which occurs on all systems (closing in on your destination in SC and other situations were it is most likely due to content being streamed in). Oh, and the galaxy map is not perfectly smooth, but again I would guess that is not a problem with the GPU but rather with the map's implementation.

Anyway, if you have info re 1 vs. 2 GTX980 I am very interested!

(Edit: Forgot to mention that we run the DK2 on the above setup. All through an Asus Z97 Deluxe and Windows 8.1)

Ok, I just did a test (couldn't wait for this evening) and the performance is identical! So you're right in that the SLI isn't making any difference. I think my stuttering (in the tutorial) is the same thing - content being loaded in. There about about 5 of them approaching asteroid clusters, and each lasts about a second or so. The galaxy map isn't smooth, as you've suggested. It's smooth for panning around, but not for head movements.

So, just to recap - running a single GTX 980 on a 5 year old computer (Core i7 950) will give you >75fps with all settings on high and with rift DK2. I can't help but feel that I've wasted my hard earned cash on an extra GPU and a (yet to arrive) CPU and mobo. I guess it might come in handy later on...

Usage stats were:
Single GPU maxed at 98% usage.
With SLI, no GPU went higher than 71%

CPU usage was less with SLI disabled too. I know this is only limited testing, but on the face of it then it seems like the old core i7s are still good to go for ED - just put in a GTX 980.

Fred
I wouldn't think it was worth getting an extra GPU based on what I've found now, but I'm puzzled as to why you're not able to get higher performance with your gtx 970. Our systems seem similar, and GPU is also...

 

[Foxis]

Thanks!
Both happy and sad regarding your findings. Happy that we did not get a second 980 now but a bit disappointed in that it did not make any difference.
The bright side to all of it is that nvidia will likely release VR drivers before long and it would surprise me a lot if ED was not one of the titles getting some custom attention. It seems like quite a few at Frontier are enthusiastic about VR and will likely help push the capabilities of ED in that regard forwards!

 

[simphe]

I do not own an Oculus Rift... yet. I will wait for a retail version.
On the other hand I have my doubts, because I don't think the rift will be usable for the non-flying part of the game in the near future and I do not like the idea of having to take off the rift if I leave the pilot's seat.

I'm assuming that they'll implement the 'walking around' parts same was as games like half life 2? All just speculation though but I'd think making it work on the rift would be totally plausible from a UI perspective. IMO, you're right in that removing the rift to walk around would detract from the immersion too much.

 

[simphe]

Thanks!
Both happy and sad regarding your findings. Happy that we did not get a second 980 now but a bit disappointed in that it did not make any difference.
The bright side to all of it is that nvidia will likely release VR drivers before long and it would surprise me a lot if ED was not one of the titles getting some custom attention. It seems like quite a few at Frontier are enthusiastic about VR and will likely help push the capabilities of ED in that regard forwards!

I quite agree! It might be that the lack of difference is because a single 980 maxes everything out at >75 fps, and so putting an extra one in SLI just means that there's no difference to the human eye - the rift only shows 75fps. A better test might be to check the difference with SLI where a single card makes < 75 fps to see if it jumps up, or when the final OR version arrives. That's likely to be higher res, and 90hz.

The data does show that the cards spread the load in terms of GPU usage though, which is a sign of hope for SLI surely.

 

[Foxis]

Yes, I definitely expect dual 980s to have a marked advantage with the arrival of the customer version, although by then we may be wanting the next current nvidia card...
By the way, did you check how ED spreads the loads over several CPU cores? We were debating the choice of the 4970K vs an hex core processor before the build and came to the conclusion that the most likely choice by a gamer would be the 4970K due to higher clock, as clock speed is usually more important than cores for gaming. However, I have since seen that ED has a quad core as minimum recommended, which may indicate that they actually do use several cores properly..? I have been meaning to benchmark that but haven't had time yet...

 

[thafred]

Ok, I just did a test (couldn't wait for this evening) and the performance is identical! So you're right in that the SLI isn't making any difference. I think my stuttering (in the tutorial) is the same thing - content being loaded in. There about about 5 of them approaching asteroid clusters, and each lasts about a second or so. The galaxy map isn't smooth, as you've suggested. It's smooth for panning around, but not for head movements.

So, just to recap - running a single GTX 980 on a 5 year old computer (Core i7 950) will give you >75fps with all settings on high and with rift DK2. I can't help but feel that I've wasted my hard earned cash on an extra GPU and a (yet to arrive) CPU and mobo. I guess it might come in handy later on...

Usage stats were:
Single GPU maxed at 98% usage.
With SLI, no GPU went higher than 71%

CPU usage was less with SLI disabled too. I know this is only limited testing, but on the face of it then it seems like the old core i7s are still good to go for ED - just put in a GTX 980.

Fred
I wouldn't think it was worth getting an extra GPU based on what I've found now, but I'm puzzled as to why you're not able to get higher performance with your gtx 970. Our systems seem similar, and GPU is also...

Thanks for your Test Simon!
I´m quite puzzled by your findings. Not only that I seem to get much worse performance worries me but also that you see no difference in SLI is quite.. interesting.. in a bad way!

First of all: We don´t know yet if you have a CPU/Bus limitation due to 2 980s maxing out at 70% (are both your SLI slots 2.0 16x? mine is only 16x and 8x..) If the GPU usage of 70% happened only in Elite I would suggest that Vsync in the Rift is the culprit but you said that you also had those usage numbers in 3D Mark ? ...very strange as it should max them out easily...

Second: Would you try running Sli on/off with ED at DSR 2560x1440 or higher (you have to enable DSR in the Nvidia global settings If you haven´t done so already).. I think it would be impossible for 1 Card to have >75fps with Downsampling.

Third: did you try ED on the Monitor with SLI on and Vsync off? If it works on the Monitor it should work in the Rift unless something is very off.

Fourth: Don´t you regret the board/chip purchase mate! You get all the goodies like USB 3.0 and PCI-X 3 and whatnot but most important: how could we possibly get scientific data without some noble Commander spending the $ so that poor chaps like me don´t have to

cheers!

 

[jabokai]

Regarding bottlenecks, have a look at my post here, and the dev's reply a few posts down. May be relevant, may be not.

 

[Wolfox]

I'd say buy the 980
Wait for the PC version of GTA V

Not a bad idea, and with the first person mode maybe it will support the Rift

 

[thafred]

Regarding bottlenecks, have a look at my post here, and the dev's reply a few posts down. May be relevant, may be not.

I saw your thread before but forgot about it, thanks jabokai. I think Mark Allens response in your thread is very relevant for this one.
Allthou I would have hoped that they got around optimizing the engine by now, I suggest we just keep messing about until we get gamma!

Forgot one thing: Simon, did you disable core parking on your 950 CPU?

 

[saviornt]

VR SLI is not implemented yet by NVidia. It is coming "soon". In the meantime, disable SLI when you play in VR (it adds an additional latency).

With the exception of the video card, the rest of the specs are fine.

 

[simphe]

Yes, I definitely expect dual 980s to have a marked advantage with the arrival of the customer version, although by then we may be wanting the next current nvidia card...
By the way, did you check how ED spreads the loads over several CPU cores? We were debating the choice of the 4970K vs an hex core processor before the build and came to the conclusion that the most likely choice by a gamer would be the 4970K due to higher clock, as clock speed is usually more important than cores for gaming. However, I have since seen that ED has a quad core as minimum recommended, which may indicate that they actually do use several cores properly..? I have been meaning to benchmark that but haven't had time yet...

Ah - the next card... I considered waiting too, but I'm too impatient, and there's always something new just around the corner

The load over the core on the I7 950 is spread quite evenly, with the load running at about 20 - 30% and then it spikes toward 100. Occasionally it stays there for a bit too, so this does suggest that the cores are all used.