Is there actually PvP in Powerplay? Question from a vet cmdr thinking of taking part

[Muzz UK]

So I've been here since the Kickstarter! Powerplay is a gamemode I've rarely touched and only used to get a few module unlocks about 3 years ago. For me it was a big disappointment I had in my mind a big open world PvP gamemode where I'd actually get to engage in some fair ship vs ship combat with other players but this just never happened. I'm thinking of revisiting PP with my squadron but whats the current state. Other than hauling merits is there much else going on nowadays? Is there PvP or combat of any sort. Am I correct in thinking its "legal" to pew pew other powers in space as long as you're not near a station? How does PP work with Odyssey and ground settlements do ground bases fall under the PP marker in terms of combat.

Is one of the requirements to make PP interesting and engaging being part of a bigger squadron or at least using a populated organised discord?

 

[Rebel Yell]

For me it was a big disappointment I had in my mind a big open world PvP gamemode where I'd actually get to engage in some fair ship vs ship combat with other players but this just never happened.

I believe you're going to be disappointed again.

If you visit this forum section, there's no doubt you can read some posts about the recent clashes between various powers... some times PvP happens, depending on that specific power situation (i.e. turmoil, expansion -> higher chances for weaponized ones, etc.) otherwise it happens on a random basis. Some powers have trafficked systems for various reasons, so you can find enemy pledged ships there as well (but that doesn't mean the enemies are there because of powerplay related activities).

Excluding the time-zone differences, the game platforms (with the "death of consoles" this is much less relevant right now), there are two big issues which affect the current state of powerplay: first one, the Odyssey/Horizons divide and second, the fact that CMDRs may earn merits and conduct powerplay activities in solo/PG.

 

[Garek]

Kinda. It's on a bigger scale, so it's more often a PVPVE sorta thing where you're doing PVE tasks as part of the struggle between Powers. Some of the tasks are transporting goods, others are direct combat, it depends on the Power. The more organized and dedicated powers are definitely friendly to PVP play, though.

And, yes, if you're part of a Power then PC and NPC members of other powers are fair game. You get "power bounties", but they don't work like regular bounties. You won't get messed with at a station, and standard system security won't hassle you. It's mostly that security ships tied to that specific faction will open fire on you and vice versa. No connection to CQC whatsoever, however.

As for joining a Discord? Yes. Absolutely. There are a lot of traps involved in PP where players can unwittingly harm the Power's interests by seemingly benign or even helpful activity. You want to be on the same team, and these factions are basically ran out of Discord, with various associated Squadrons involved as well. There's also an entire layer of BGS (minor faction) conflict involved that I still don't really understand, but which they can direct you towards.

If you're looking for combat, well, you're actually coming in at quite the time for that. There's a huge conflict going on between two of the Powers, Aisling Duval (Space Princess) and Zachary Hudson (Space Reagan). Duval's relentless coordinated assault is reversing over a year of Hudson's expansionist gains. If you're looking for pew pew, Duval can serve you up as much as you can possibly handle. Plus, she gives the best PVP shields in the game if you join. So there's that.

 

[NWSpacek]

Powerplay PVP happens every few weeks or so. It rises and falls depending on how alert each power is to the movements of the other. Powerplay PVE combat happens all the time - it's the main way to prevent another power from accomplishing their goals.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

So I've been here since the Kickstarter! Powerplay is a gamemode I've rarely touched and only used to get a few module unlocks about 3 years ago. For me it was a big disappointment I had in my mind a big open world PvP gamemode where I'd actually get to engage in some fair ship vs ship combat with other players but this just never happened. I'm thinking of revisiting PP with my squadron but whats the current state. Other than hauling merits is there much else going on nowadays? Is there PvP or combat of any sort. Am I correct in thinking its "legal" to pew pew other powers in space as long as you're not near a station? How does PP work with Odyssey and ground settlements do ground bases fall under the PP marker in terms of combat.

Is one of the requirements to make PP interesting and engaging being part of a bigger squadron or at least using a populated organised discord?

Definitely join a discord. It's where powers organise and nothing meaningful and constructive to a power can be done in the current system without large scale organisation.

The big conflicts occur between the Imperial and Federal alliances. As stated above, the Federation are currently on the defensive. It's an interesting thing though as the currrent situation is PvP-light, despite being intense. Although this will partially be due to the use of modes or blocking, the main reason is that the targets are Hudson's control systems, so players are spread out over many locations. The large task of undermining all these each week also means there are few spare players to attack the Fed players directly. I'd recommend you take a look at the other thread in this sub that's racking up the pages at the moment before deciding whether this sort of operation is something you'd really want to be part of, however.

As for choosing between these groups generally, the main difference could be the size of each. The Feds are a smaller but relatively tight-knit group with a high proportion of big hitters. The Imperials sprawl across 4 (5 if you include Grom) powers and many individual factions, with Aisling having a high proportion of "randoms" (for the OP shields!). They are nonetheless coordinated, and can muster huge force when the ducks get in a row, that probably makes the Feds the underdogs. ALD are the more dedicated PvPers of the Imperial powers.

From a PvP point of view, the Feds are largely organised, in a single discord server, and collectively operate an open-only, no-blocking policy to maximise interaction (including PvP) and clarity in PP activities. While this makes us good targets, it also attracts skilful PvPers that share a similar attitude, and creates a natural interest in developing PvP skills. The Imperials also have plenty of PvPers so there is scope for good and sometimes large fights. But contested expansions involving Fed powers and either AD or ALD are where they are most likely.

Of the independent powers, that I know of Kumo and Antal have significant PvP potential (against each other mostly). Smaller powers, but active.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

PS ground bases don't directly feature in powerplay. BUT - normal faction BGS work features hugely in the internal economy of each power, which can also lead to PvP where opposing powers simultaneously help/undermine a faction. You could work full time for a power without earning a single PP merit.

 

[DemiserofD]

So I've been here since the Kickstarter! Powerplay is a gamemode I've rarely touched and only used to get a few module unlocks about 3 years ago. For me it was a big disappointment I had in my mind a big open world PvP gamemode where I'd actually get to engage in some fair ship vs ship combat with other players but this just never happened. I'm thinking of revisiting PP with my squadron but whats the current state. Other than hauling merits is there much else going on nowadays? Is there PvP or combat of any sort. Am I correct in thinking its "legal" to pew pew other powers in space as long as you're not near a station? How does PP work with Odyssey and ground settlements do ground bases fall under the PP marker in terms of combat.

Is one of the requirements to make PP interesting and engaging being part of a bigger squadron or at least using a populated organised discord?

If you only shoot enemy powers, you're better than most pvpers.

But as for 'meaningful' pvp, no, it doesn't exist. There is no way to consistently instance with anyone, so any time pvp occurs, it's consensual, which basically means that if anything changes in powerplay as a result, it's because they let you change it.

IE, both you and they are roleplaying that pvp matters. Which is fine, until someone not in on the illusion comes along, and promptly obliterates everything you've worked towards.

Functionally speaking, you could just plan out a pvp tournament every week and just agree that whichever side wins, wins powerplay for that week, and save a lot of time and effort on both sides. But again, the players who don't agree will tend to render the whole thing irrelevant.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

What they mean is that enough of each side need to agree to stay in open and not mess with instancing for it to be meaningful. The tournament idea is naturally unsatisfying since, with powerplay, it's facing a PvP challenge while trying to do an array of PvE tasks that makes things interesting and Elite-like. So a bunch of honour rules have emerged and although one side may be flaky on them, they're adhered to well enough that organic PvP is a thing. In the end the whole thing is a bit naff without those rules, and could be better if instancing could be better assured.

Of course powerplay (and indeed the whole game) doesn't really affect anything so it's all a meaningless game of pretend in the end .

 

[Agony_Aunt]

The mechanics are really PvE with the possibility that PvP can have an effect, but its not really that different from how PvP can affect the BGS, in that you stop an enemy from doing what they are doing.

The main difference is, with the BGS, you can't know what faction someone is working for unless they tell you (except when you declare for a side in combat zones). In powerplay at least ships are identified with the power they are working for.

Its one of my issues with Powerplay though, they designed a competitive gameplay mode, which they said would enable PvP, but really, it just doesn't. And this isn't really about Open vs Solo or whatever. If you're going to have a game mode where the outcome is determinable by PvP, then you simply can't have a PvE element, because then the PvEers will dominate regardless (and yes, even if it was open only, the PvEers would dominate - PvEers outnumber PvPers massively, they'd win through sheer numbers).

They should have simply made all mechanics require a PvP component to affect the outcomes so it would be a true PvP mode. Then the whole debate about Open vs Solo wouldn't matter, as you'd have to be in open to play.

Then it would only fail if there simply weren't enough PvPers playing it. Of course, they'd be missing all the "PvPers" who only do PvP to kill easy targets... not sure how many "real" PvPers actually play ED.

As it is, PP is just a poor man's BGS, since you're a lot more limited in the activities you can do.

 

[QueensPawn]

The thing about PvP in powerplay that a lot of people have touched on is that success in PvP is very much tangential to success in Powerplay. Even if PvPers outnumbered PvEers, the fact of the matter is that the outcome of Powerplay is determined by the PvE activities, not the PvP conflicts. I have seen a PvP kill have an effect on the outcome of a Powerplay cycle exactly once since I started playing a little over a year ago. Powerplay really is a bunch of people running their own time trials on their own courses, but occasionally you get an opportunity to pull out a cap gun and distract your opponent for a moment and maybe that'll be enough to make them slip up and ruin their time and make you win. But if the enemy doesn't flinch, the little projectile you launched at them just kinda bounces off and they keep running.

My recommendation if you want PvP is to find PvP hot zones and do organized wing fights. Powerplay will likely leave you always short of being satisfied as a primary PvPer.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

The thing about PvP in powerplay that a lot of people have touched on is that success in PvP is very much tangential to success in Powerplay. Even if PvPers outnumbered PvEers, the fact of the matter is that the outcome of Powerplay is determined by the PvE activities, not the PvP conflicts. I have seen a PvP kill have an effect on the outcome of a Powerplay cycle exactly once since I started playing a little over a year ago. Powerplay really is a bunch of people running their own time trials on their own courses, but occasionally you get an opportunity to pull out a cap gun and distract your opponent for a moment and maybe that'll be enough to make them slip up and ruin their time and make you win. But if the enemy doesn't flinch, the little projectile you launched at them just kinda bounces off and they keep running.

My recommendation if you want PvP is to find PvP hot zones and do organized wing fights. Powerplay will likely leave you always short of being satisfied as a primary PvPer.

I've experienced more than once my wing of T9s and cutters being completely blocked from delivering cargo for a play session when we didn't have PvP cover, taking rebuys, etc. This occured because my side don't block or use closed modes (and was before the Odyssey split to be honest). We stick to honour rules partly because we know opponents' laxity would get worse if we didn't.

Another example - a Torval expansion being "defended" (attacking underminers) by ALD pilots. They couldn't haul for Torval (well they could repledge, but that would be dishonourable right? And maybe unappealing for other reasons), but they could prevent or interrupt undermining on what was their alliance's primary target that week. Again because we stick to our code. The expansion was won, swung by their interference.

Now, PvP occurs because there are people that enjoy it, and pilots in general fly in open. They may even choose to do it when they could be earning merits in a given week, or because merit earning is a low priority for their power that week. This makes PvP meaningful because those people are not earning merits, but can interfere with their opponents' merit activity (instead of, say, going exploring or playing a different game). But it relies on players being in open, even though it's more challenging as a result. If you decide PvP is meaningless and sit off in PG, farming, because you've convinced yourself "it makes no difference", it will certainly become more meaningless. It's an oft touted argument of people who want to avoid PvP because, in truth, for better or worse, they want combat in the game to be easy.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

The mechanics are really PvE with the possibility that PvP can have an effect, but its not really that different from how PvP can affect the BGS, in that you stop an enemy from doing what they are doing.

The main difference is, with the BGS, you can't know what faction someone is working for unless they tell you (except when you declare for a side in combat zones). In powerplay at least ships are identified with the power they are working for.

Its one of my issues with Powerplay though, they designed a competitive gameplay mode, which they said would enable PvP, but really, it just doesn't. And this isn't really about Open vs Solo or whatever. If you're going to have a game mode where the outcome is determinable by PvP, then you simply can't have a PvE element, because then the PvEers will dominate regardless (and yes, even if it was open only, the PvEers would dominate - PvEers outnumber PvPers massively, they'd win through sheer numbers).

They should have simply made all mechanics require a PvP component to affect the outcomes so it would be a true PvP mode. Then the whole debate about Open vs Solo wouldn't matter, as you'd have to be in open to play.

Then it would only fail if there simply weren't enough PvPers playing it. Of course, they'd be missing all the "PvPers" who only do PvP to kill easy targets... not sure how many "real" PvPers actually play ED.

As it is, PP is just a poor man's BGS, since you're a lot more limited in the activities you can do.

BGS doesn't have the choke points powerplay does. You can patrol a single system, often a single shipping lane or nav beacon, and if opponents are in open, you can stop them there.

 

[QueensPawn]

Another example - a Torval expansion being "defended" (attacking underminers) by ALD pilots. They couldn't haul for Torval (well they could repledge, but that would be dishonourable right? And maybe unappealing for other reasons), but they could prevent or interrupt undermining on what was their alliance's primary target that week. Again because we stick to our code. The expansion was won, swung by their interference.

This is the example I was thinking of when I said that I've seen one example in my year playing. That was a pretty epic expansion.

Closest I've come to being prevented from hauling was the expansion to Asurasairu in which SK1701 killed me once and interdicted me a few times, but in that case he only really slowed me down a little bit and could've done a lot more by taking that time to oppose the expansion instead of trying to slow our hauling.

 

[professor hex]

Organic PVP in Powerplay is unbalanced by the fact that one party is normally in a hauler or PVE undermining ship and it gets declined as your target wakes out. It will be hard to get a kill against a competent pilot in a well-built ship, but at least you are inhibiting them from earning merits in open. More even PVP occasions when both sides are kittted for it happen in particular situations according to the state of play. Right now forces are dispersed as a variety of systems are being undermined.

Contested expansions are your best bet for Powerplay PVP. Or if you want to seal-club, camp hauling powers' HQs.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

This is the example I was thinking of when I said that I've seen one example in my year playing. That was a pretty epic expansion.

Exactly. When the expansion matters most, PvP matters. When nothing much is happening, not so much, or it's more of a way of emphasising allegiances and adversariality.

 

[QueensPawn]

Exactly. When the expansion matters most, PvP matters. When nothing much is happening, not so much, or it's more of a way of emphasising allegiances and adversariality.

I don't agree with the conept that PvP matters when the expansion matters. PvP matters when the expansion is close but there have been plenty of expansions where they've mattered way more than that one Torval expansion, and it wasn't close enough for PvP to make a difference. There have been times when I've felt relieved that there was PvP cover, but it was mostly a feeling. In terms of strategic effectiveness, more PvEers has considerably more effect on our chances of victory than the same number of PvPers helping run cover or disrupt enemy operations.

 

[Rebel Yell]

I don't agree with the conept that PvP matters when the expansion matters. PvP matters when the expansion is close but there have been plenty of expansions where they've mattered way more than that one Torval expansion, and it wasn't close enough for PvP to make a difference. There have been times when I've felt relieved that there was PvP cover, but it was mostly a feeling. In terms of strategic effectiveness, more PvEers has considerably more effect on our chances of victory than the same number of PvPers helping run cover or disrupt enemy operations.

The only one thing that matters is the fun... most of us in KUMO has fun in PvP (for the challenge, the confrontation, etc), nothing bad if in other powers someone else has fun in PvE (while watching Netflix or cooking pasta). It is a game, after all...

 

[QueensPawn]

For me, the fun is tactical and strategic. PvE is just the tool to use to interact with the larger game. If ED were just a space flight sim for dogfighting other players, I would've been bored of it ages ago. I understand that it's fun for other people though, which is why I try to get our PvPers content when I have the opportunity. I want everyone to get their fun.

 

[Agony_Aunt]

BGS doesn't have the choke points powerplay does. You can patrol a single system, often a single shipping lane or nav beacon, and if opponents are in open, you can stop them there.

I don't see the difference, except for both you're just wasting your time sitting there in SC if nobody comes along. And if someone does, and beats you at the interdiction game, you've just wasted a load of time.

Assuming everyone is in open (because that's what you're assuming here with PP, so let's say the same for BGS) you know which stations people can be flying to to work the BGS. You could also waste your time sitting in SC in a system waiting for people to come along.

The real difference as i said is identification. With PP you know who your enemies are. With BGS you don't unless you have learned through some other channel they are working the BGS against you.

 

[[VR] Bulbulunufus]

I don't see the difference, except for both you're just wasting your time sitting there in SC if nobody comes along. And if someone does, and beats you at the interdiction game, you've just wasted a load of time.

Assuming everyone is in open (because that's what you're assuming here with PP, so let's say the same for BGS) you know which stations people can be flying to to work the BGS. You could also waste your time sitting in SC in a system waiting for people to come along.

The real difference as i said is identification. With PP you know who your enemies are. With BGS you don't unless you have learned through some other channel they are working the BGS against you.

The traffic in heavily contested PP star systems (when outcomes matter most) can almost feel like CG levels, week long. You don't get that at BGS locations. The closest I've known is particular vicious BGS wars in service of large PP groups, where even then PvP is not something I've experienced, but heard about from other participants. Could be due to the "difficulty of instancing" with power Y's players, TBH, but also the multiplicity of CZs (more so since Odyssey). It's really a different level. If your wing is blockaded from a single large pad port, you need some PvP defence to break the line for you to get through, or your delivery rate goes through the floor.