PC Upgrade (Motherboard & CPU)

[EvilbunnyELITE]

I just upgraded this month from a 7700k and 32gb DDR4 to....a 5800x3d and 32gb DDR4.

I too was very back and forth over waiting or upgrading now or if the upgrade would even matter. Now, I can say 100% the upgrade was worth it. Games on the 5800x3d play much better than on the 7700k, especially the types of games I play the most like EDO, MSFS, ARMA. Encoding time for videos (22min episodes) dropped from 30mins on the 7700k to 11 mins on the 5800x3d. I went with the 5800x3d vs waiting for a few reasons:

1- AM4 is a dead platform, so there are good sales on mobos right now. I got my mobo for $250 off MSRP. I ended up with a much nicer mobo than I would typically price for.
2- 5800x3d is cool technology, and I just wanted it for that stacked vcache. It really does work great in games that can utilize it, and nothing I have played has been hurt by it.
3- DDR4 is cheap right now, I bought 32gb and plan to get 32gb more as more sales come around as its phased out for DDR5.
4- AM4 is mature and it seems the bugs/issues are all ironed out now, I have had zero problems.

A few work machines I use have the new intel CPUs, honestly I'm not impressed with them. I've been using intel since my first build on a i7 920. Its not that the performance is bad or anything, they just don't feel different than the 11th gen intels I've used. Note that my experience here is exclusively with software development work, not gaming. I will note we have had problems with the different core types and some of our software tools and applications.

It seems in my limited testing the 5800x3d really helped my EDO performance. Granted, I do play at 1080p/ 60fps with a 2080 super. In games that can use the vcache, its much faster, even than some of intels new CPUs, in games that dont use it, it works fine and falls in line with the expected clockspeed-ish performance. Outside of gaming totally outclasses my 7700k in all other tasks/multitasking performance and is significantly and noticeably better.

 

[Riverside]

I just upgraded this month from a 7700k and 32gb DDR4 to....a 5800x3d and 32gb DDR4.

I too was very back and forth over waiting or upgrading now or if the upgrade would even matter. Now, I can say 100% the upgrade was worth it. Games on the 5800x3d play much better than on the 7700k, especially the types of games I play the most like EDO, MSFS, ARMA. Encoding time for videos (22min episodes) dropped from 30mins on the 7700k to 11 mins on the 5800x3d. I went with the 5800x3d vs waiting for a few reasons:

1- AM4 is a dead platform, so there are good sales on mobos right now. I got my mobo for $250 off MSRP. I ended up with a much nicer mobo than I would typically price for.
2- 5800x3d is cool technology, and I just wanted it for that stacked vcache. It really does work great in games that can utilize it, and nothing I have played has been hurt by it.
3- DDR4 is cheap right now, I bought 32gb and plan to get 32gb more as more sales come around as its phased out for DDR5.
4- AM4 is mature and it seems the bugs/issues are all ironed out now, I have had zero problems.

A few work machines I use have the new intel CPUs, honestly I'm not impressed with them. I've been using intel since my first build on a i7 920. Its not that the performance is bad or anything, they just don't feel different than the 11th gen intels I've used. Note that my experience here is exclusively with software development work, not gaming. I will note we have had problems with the different core types and some of our software tools and applications.

It seems in my limited testing the 5800x3d really helped my EDO performance. Granted, I do play at 1080p/ 60fps with a 2080 super. In games that can use the vcache, its much faster, even than some of intels new CPUs, in games that dont use it, it works fine and falls in line with the expected clockspeed-ish performance. Outside of gaming totally outclasses my 7700k in all other tasks/multitasking performance and is significantly and noticeably better.

That's helpful info thanks, and welcome to the forum

I've been looking into both the 12700k and 5800X3D, and suitable motherboards to go with both. RAM pricing doesn't seem to have changed since I bought my 32Gb (2x16) sticks in October, so I'll just transfer over what I have for now.

I found some X570 boards that look good in the region of £260, and one pretty basic looking Asus one for £150, the 5800X3D itself is currently available for £430 so no bargains to help sway my intel preference sadly. The extra L3 cache looks like it it has real benefit but it's a very new feature & I think one to watch rather that one to buy right now. As others have said on the AMD front it seems best to wait for the next generation of socket rather than to buy right now, and I want to buy right now.

So I've decided on an i7 12700k (found one for £400 without the oem HSF that I don't need, an MSI PRO Z690-A DDR4 Motherboard for £180 that looks to have good quality power distribution and a Noctua NH-D15 for £85. All other components will just be re-used from my existing PC. I may need to get a new windows licence depending on what I do with my current motherboard but that's not urgent. I have win10 & I am assuming I'll be able to freely upgrade that to win11 on the new hardware, my current hardware doesn't meet the min requirements for win11.


Thanks for the advice & suggestions everyone

 

[Dragsham]

Good luck. Win 11 activation might kick off but that's once its installed so just follow the win11 activation prompts it should be ok. Mine was

 

[EvilbunnyELITE]

That's helpful info thanks, and welcome to the forum

I've been looking into both the 12700k and 5800X3D, and suitable motherboards to go with both. RAM pricing doesn't seem to have changed since I bought my 32Gb (2x16) sticks in October, so I'll just transfer over what I have for now.

I found some X570 boards that look good in the region of £260, and one pretty basic looking Asus one for £150, the 5800X3D itself is currently available for £430 so no bargains to help sway my intel preference sadly. The extra L3 cache looks like it it has real benefit but it's a very new feature & I think one to watch rather that one to buy right now. As others have said on the AMD front it seems best to wait for the next generation of socket rather than to buy right now, and I want to buy right now.

So I've decided on an i7 12700k (found one for £400 without the oem HSF that I don't need, an MSI PRO Z690-A DDR4 Motherboard for £180 that looks to have good quality power distribution and a Noctua NH-D15 for £85. All other components will just be re-used from my existing PC. I may need to get a new windows licence depending on what I do with my current motherboard but that's not urgent. I have win10 & I am assuming I'll be able to freely upgrade that to win11 on the new hardware, my current hardware doesn't meet the min requirements for win11.


Thanks for the advice & suggestions everyone

Nice! That is gonna be one heck of an upgrade, you will like it. Bummer no sales in your area though, I got lucky with my local shop trying to clear inventory for the new CPUs and stuff. ND-D15 is awesome too. As far as your windows licnese, my win 10 home that I used on my 7700k transfered to my new build with windows 11, no problems at all. Just downloaded windows 11 and flashed it to a usb, installed and entered my win 10 product key and it took it right away. I was even allowed to make a local account vs an online one.

 

[Riverside]

Nice! That is gonna be one heck of an upgrade, you will like it. Bummer no sales in your area though, I got lucky with my local shop trying to clear inventory for the new CPUs and stuff. ND-D15 is awesome too. As far as your windows licnese, my win 10 home that I used on my 7700k transfered to my new build with windows 11, no problems at all. Just downloaded windows 11 and flashed it to a usb, installed and entered my win 10 product key and it took it right away. I was even allowed to make a local account vs an online one.

Yeah as I said earlier either choice would have been good I really appreciated the reasoning you gave, it helped me a lot but as you say, no bargains to be had. Maybe if I were more familiar with the AMD ecosystem I could have found a used board to put the more expensive CPU into, and I looked for older intel hardware too just in case something juicy came up on ebay from an ex-mining rig etc.

I found a licence only copy of win11pro on Amazon for £15, which is a 'seems too good to be true' price, but does appear legit (long standing seller, good feedback etc). My current license is a retail copy of win10home (with the files on a USB stick) that I paid IIRC £75 for but it was at least definitely a genuine legal license.

Fingers crossed the hardware arrives today!

I have some concerns about mounting the HSF, the socket 1700 CPU retainer apparently isn't great at applying consistent load to the heat spreader (Gamer's Nexus has a few videos about the topic) so I'll make sure I get it as good as I can & monitor temps. It was another factor in AMDs favour, and the main reason why I put up a thread asking for alternatives rather than just buying the stuff I wanted.

No doubt there will be some buyers remorse (from me) that you got the better hardware too Hopefully with newer tech like PCIe5 I am 'futureproofing' a little longer than you, but that concept of having massive cache seems like a good way for consumer CPU tech to move forward, I'm not sure having 4 extra mini-cores on my 12700k will be much more than a marketing gimmick but I do multi-task a lot with having 3x monitors so maybe it'll come into it's own? Who knows

I feel like a kid on Christmas morning

 

[Morbad]

Maybe if I were more familiar with the AMD ecosystem I could have found a used board to put the more expensive CPU into

One advantage AM4 has is that even the fastest CPUs will never pull that much current (at least not without fairly extreme effort), and something like a 5800X3D can comfortably reach it's practical limits on a sub-100USD (new) board.

I have some concerns about mounting the HSF, the socket 1700 CPU retainer apparently isn't great at applying consistent load to the heat spreader (Gamer's Nexus has a few videos about the topic) so I'll make sure I get it as good as I can & monitor temps. It was another factor in AMDs favour, and the main reason why I put up a thread asking for alternatives rather than just buying the stuff I wanted.

This issue isn't limited to LGA-1700. It's a problem with nearly every Intel LGA socket to some degree or another, and as far back as LGA-1366 (~2009), I was using sockets salvaged from dead boards to hold CPUs while I lapped them, as the simple act of clamping down the retention mechanism bends the entire processor and IHS (meaning if you want best contact, you need to sand the IHS flat while it's installed in a socket and clamped down, otherwise installing it after the fact changes the shape so much that it's a waste of effort). Broadwell-E/EP parts on LGA-2011v3 could even have the substrate deformed so badly (corners of the CPU bent up) that it would affect functionality in some cases (lost memory channels, for example).

People just really started noticing this with LGA-1700 as it's the first mainstream socket to really deviate from a square form factor, has a relatively large surface area, and coolers with high mounting pressure. Also, the thermal density of the CPUs involved has finally reached a point where bad contact cannot be ignored.

AMD isn't entirely free from contact issues either. The socket can't warp them and their IHS thickness vs CPU dimensions makes them sufficiently rigid for most coolers to not be able to bend them appreciably, but the manufacturing process itself leaves most AM4 CPUs with a slightly concave profile, which is also bad for thermals, especially if one's cooler base is not convex to compensate. It's for these reasons that any CPU that I keep beyond initial testing, and all of my cooler bases, usually get sanded flat.

Anyway, I recommend getting one of the Thermalright retention frames for your LGA-1700 board (ideally not installing any CPU with the stock retention mechanism, to avoid bending the IHS). It significantly reduces board and CPU warping and improves temperatures through more even contact and mounting pressure.

 

[Dragsham]

Ah 12th gen woes.
See....lol.
AM5 sockets now I wonder if they address this issue of how chip resides and consequences namely thermals.?
I never did like 12th gen I always had it tagged as marketing ploy to squeeze us gamers.
Oh....actually Snake told me hehe...otherwise I'd have bought it all!
Research ! That I have learned. Not that the 12th gen problem was spotted by all those utube techs raving on about how good it all is....
o7

 

[Riverside]

One advantage AM4 has is that even the fastest CPUs will never pull that much current (at least not without fairly extreme effort), and something like a 5800X3D can comfortably reach it's practical limits on a sub-100USD (new) board.



This issue isn't limited to LGA-1700. It's a problem with nearly every Intel LGA socket to some degree or another, and as far back as LGA-1366 (~2009), I was using sockets salvaged from dead boards to hold CPUs while I lapped them, as the simple act of clamping down the retention mechanism bends the entire processor and IHS (meaning if you want best contact, you need to sand the IHS flat while it's installed in a socket and clamped down, otherwise installing it after the fact changes the shape so much that it's a waste of effort). Broadwell-E/EP parts on LGA-2011v3 could even have the substrate deformed so badly (corners of the CPU bent up) that it would affect functionality in some cases (lost memory channels, for example).

People just really started noticing this with LGA-1700 as it's the first mainstream socket to really deviate from a square form factor, has a relatively large surface area, and coolers with high mounting pressure. Also, the thermal density of the CPUs involved has finally reached a point where bad contact cannot be ignored.

AMD isn't entirely free from contact issues either. The socket can't warp them and their IHS thickness vs CPU dimensions makes them sufficiently rigid for most coolers to not be able to bend them appreciably, but the manufacturing process itself leaves most AM4 CPUs with a slightly concave profile, which is also bad for thermals, especially if one's cooler base is not convex to compensate. It's for these reasons that any CPU that I keep beyond initial testing, and all of my cooler bases, usually get sanded flat.

Anyway, I recommend getting one of the Thermalright retention frames for your LGA-1700 board (ideally not installing any CPU with the stock retention mechanism, to avoid bending the IHS). It significantly reduces board and CPU warping and improves temperatures through more even contact and mounting pressure.

Yeah I looked at the thermal grizzly one, I understand the issue, the cause & the benefit of the alternate CPU retainer but not the scale of the issue.

I'm not looking to get the last few percent out of an overclocked CPU, I just want it to work without issues (including running hot of course).

Lapping a heat spreader isn't, or shouldn't be routine, I'm just buying new, consumer grade components. Just how important is it?

 

[Dragsham]

Well if say your gpus vrms memory chips etc over heat boom that's it! Crash!
Normally down to hotspots on the mainboard or gpu.
Your system will thermally throttle itself to save your hardware.

 

[Riverside]

You've really fed my paranoia Dragsham

I've ordered one, it was only £15 on Amazon with free next Day delivery.

As far as I can tell these retaining plates help reduce temps by 5-9 degrees and are by no means essential for normal use. Installation looks easy enough & I don't mind that amount of cash for piece of mind. There does seem to be quite a lot of marketing going on with these things but at least it's cheap

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

Thanks Morbad, your insight on the cache is just the kind of info I was hoping for

So I have a serious alternative contender in the 5800X3D compared to the i7 12700k, I'm sure I'd be happy with either choice for the next few years. All other things equal my personal preference will be to stick with intel, I have found some z690 mobos I'd be happy to buy (price, spec etc), but I need to look into AMD mobos too, in particular to get an understanding of how they handle PCIe & USB data lanes for the NVMe slots & other peripherals.

If gaming is what you are going for almost exclusively, go with the 5800X3D. That huge L3 cache makes it stupidly good in games, but it's worse than a regular 5800 in everything else.

 

[Morbad]

Lapping a heat spreader isn't, or shouldn't be routine, I'm just buying new, consumer grade components. Just how important is it?

Lapping not so much, mostly because it's a lot of effort and obviously voids your warranty. However, if you're technically competent enough to take off the stock retention mechanism and replace it with a good third party one, it's well worth the money.

Cooling is performance on all of these modern CPUs, even if you aren't overclocking. They'll all get hot enough in heavier loads to be thermally throttled on essentially any air cooler and most AIOs.

 

[shadragon]

If gaming is what you are going for almost exclusively, go with the 5800X3D. That huge L3 cache makes it stupidly good in games, but it's worse than a regular 5880 in everything else.

Correct, but as long as you are not doing high end VR it should fill most peoples gaming needs nicely.

It all comes down to what you expect to use it for. 1080, 1440, 4K, 8K, VR? How many screens? Will you be streaming or using OBS? What else do you intend to do with your PC?

The specs on a machine driving single panel 1080 - 60 fps and three panel 4K - 144 fps are a tad different. The last question is, 'what's your budget?' as that drives most hardware requirements. Your budget results in or

 

[shadragon]

Wendell covered the 5800X3D chip in-depth.

 

[shadragon]

The 'problem' with my current PC is dropped frames more than poor framerate (it's acceptable, 45-60fps while hunting salad on planets) which I think more cores (& more cache) and faster mobo pipes will help to mitigate. I can swap in a faster GPU any time.

If you have an PC, a format and reinstall of Windows might do you a world of good. Over time Windows gets bigger and bloated. I just formatted my Win10 and went from a 215GB C Drive to 62GB. It's much perkier as well. Bit of a pain getting all my stuff set back up, but it only took me a Saturday last week. Back up your docs folder and any software settings, browser bookmarks and the like.

 

[Riverside]

If you have an PC, a format and reinstall of Windows might do you a world of good. Over time Windows gets bigger and bloated. I just formatted my Win10 and went from a 215GB C Drive to 62GB. It's much perkier as well. Bit of a pain getting all my stuff set back up, but it only took me a Saturday last week. Back up your docs folder and any software settings, browser bookmarks and the like.

I'm doing that with the new PC anyway, but thanks for the advice



All the new hardware is here, the aftermarket CPU retainer went on really easily (it even came with the correct hex-drive screwdriver & some thermal paste), the most important thing to remember for anyone installing one of these is to place your CPU in the socket to protect it in case you drop a screw or something. It wasn't an issue but still good practice to be careful, and of course the screws only need to be nipped up, it would be easy to over-tighten them.

As far as the new build is concerned my main concern is going to be my visited stars cache, which is considerable (I have over 14kHrs played & well over 40k systems visited) & important to how I play.
I don't use and won't be using any 3rd party tools, and plan to do a fresh install of the game & put my existing cache in the correct place before running the game for the first time. Anyone done this (imported or otherwise managed to keep the cache)? I've not re-installed ED since the visited stars filter was added to the game.

 

[Riverside]

The new PC is now built up, with Windows 11 installed and EDO downloaded, installed & running.

My visited stars filter is working fine, just as before. What I did was to install the game then copy my entire "Frontier Developments" folder (the one with a space, not an underscore) into C:\Users\<username>\AppData\Local\ before running the game for the first time & it has picked up my bindings, graphics & audio settings and of course the visited stars cache. Happy with that.

I've just done a brief performance test & with the same GPU as before (1080ti) I am consistently getting a solid, smooth framerate that's around 10-15fps higher than before, except on foot (I'm just standing on a deserted, airless moon that happens to be nearby) where I was getting around 42-50fps now I get around 47-62. It seems to confirm that my old CPU (i7 7700) was struggling to feed the GPU with enough data at times & now that bottleneck has been removed. An issue I had with Lod loading seems to be fixed too, or at least so drastically reduced it's not an issue any more for me.

Happy with that

 

[Morbad]

Anyone done this (imported or otherwise managed to keep the cache)? I've not re-installed ED since the visited stars filter was added to the game.

Just copy the entire contents of %LocalAppData%\Frontier Developments\ to the same location on the new install.

 

[shadragon]

Just copy the entire contents of %LocalAppData%\Frontier Developments\ to the same location on the new install.

This. My issue was I forgot to grab my VoiceAttack profile. With VR, it's a necessity to have. Found an older copy I'd emailed to a friend, so wasn't completely S.O.L. but it did force me to update it like I've always meant too.

Once the Threadripper PRO 5000 series CPU's are available, I'll be doing it all again. Staying on Win 10 though. That will be my last Windows OS (just like Microsoft promised.)

 

[Riverside]

Gamers Nexus has just released a comparative review of the CPU retainers:

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYU1OskbY-Q