Game Discussions Star Citizen Discussion Thread v12

[varonica]

Both will be limited by the interface speed. Idk what ramdrive he's using, but usually they connect to a 4x PCIe slot

That's not a ram drive, a ram drive uses a set aside portion of main memory to store data like a regular drive.

They're both several orders of magnitude slower than RAM.

A RAM drive is RAM, by its very definition it's the same speed as RAM, because it is RAM.

I suspect his frame rate problem is because he is reading and writing data across the same interface for both the game being played and the data being accessed, that's going to double his memory latency, so while RAM may be much faster than regular drives the buffering is going to be a major slowdown.

 

[[VR] Merkir]

Even the cheapest popular HOTASes are still £100+, and also have the added cost of having to relearn the game's controls, neither of which I can afford right now. As I recall, using m+k in VR you can't select systems with the mouse, you have to use the keyboard controls and navigate the map to the system if that makes sense. Plus the game randomly releases the mouse which then keeps leaving the game's window (which was tiny to maximise performance). And you can't see the keyboard in VR so I kept pressing the wrong buttons.

Honestly the black levels in the Q2 are pretty good for what it is, but an OLED would be nice too!

This is the hotas I used for 6 years. I highly recommend it, and definitely great bang for your buck. It finally failed this year, so I upgraded to something better. But tbh I think I should have just bought the same again, for exactly the reasons you hinted at - I've had to spend way too many hours setting up / learning the new hotas. Not sure it was worth it.

Are you a human?

www.newegg.com

 

[Frank]

I sort-of get what LA is saying here, and have long found a 'fixed' viewpiont in any flight game (NMS, ED, DCS, IL2.. etc) to be quite 'claustrophobic'.

So I use head-tracking - and oh boy does it change the feeling and (sorry) immersion of such games.

I've not tried VR yet as Mrs PiLhEaD's opinions matter... ;-)

It's real immersion rather than that "It's immersive because you need to take a train ride to get to your spaceship" type of immersion

I do believe it depends on the number of degrees of freedom your head tracking gives you, but one of the advantages of the head tracking in VR is that those cockpit pillars that obscure your view become much less noticeable. It's easy to shift your head to see what was behind them. I see some ships in Star Citizen that have these wee horizontal slits to look out of and I think to myself that it must be annoying not to be able to move forwards a bit to get a better view

 

[marx]

Is Star Citizen at all moddable?

You know, that's a question where there's more to the answer than one would think. I mean, sure, we can just answer that with a "no", but there's more to the tale.
As things stand currently(!), pretty much any kind of modding is against the Terms of Service. However, back during the Kickstarter phase, which started almost ten years ago (2012. October), they promised both self-hosted servers and modding support. Looking at the page now, it currently says:
"Our modding tools will allow players to design new ships for both submission to the persistent RSI ship dealer network or to build custom ships and items for the self-hosted multiplayer mode."

So, according to this, one would expect modding in ships, items, and being able to host servers (of some mode) yourself. There is more promised, however. The store page actually has an "Engineering Manual for Modders" available for pre-order, for merely 10 USD plus VAT. Now, the description for that one is:
"This one goes there, that one goes there! Learn the ins and outs of modding Star Citizens’ private servers with this helpful guide. Want to create your own ship, modify a game mechanic or build your own planet? Look no further! (Digital version)

Note: This is a pre-order and won’t be available until closer to game launch."

So hey, not just ships, but you can also mod game mechanics and add planets! Sounds great, no?
Well, no, because years later, someone from CIG (I can't remember who, and I'd rather not wade through the myriad videos to find the one) said that modding support is at the bottom of the list, and it will only come well after launch.

To sum it up, the extended answer to the question is: it isn't currently moddable, and it's only going to have rather limited moddability (trying to bake mod support in after launch pretty much guarantees this), but only at an unspecified date - likely in the distant future.
Impressively enough, CIG have managed to find a way to squeeze some money out of even this.

 

[LittleAnt]

Regarding the parts in bold, I respectfully but totally disagree. This is why you need to try ED in VR for yourself and not just imagine what you think it might be like. Adding to what others have already said...

Firstly, I can get up and move around anywhere in the cockpit. When I got VR in 2016 I made videos for my BGS buddies while walking around showing them parts of the cockpits they'd never seen before - entry doors, panels, wiring, scratches on the backs of the pilot seats, signage, hexagonal raised floor matting, the stitches in my leather gloves, closeup reflections and scratches in the canopy, coffee pots, ladders, the metre wide holo-radar (which actually looks a metre wide in VR), and so on. All while sitting right next to an Earth-like planet and station in full VR 3D glory, watching it rotate and actually look like it's kilometres long (because it really does look like it is, in VR).

Like here ?

Source: https://youtu.be/zf4MHaWB7eI?t=222

What I can see is good VR but also that the pilot is glued to the seat... my head visit the cockpit, not the rest of my body.

SC with VR modding offer a lesser experience but it works also in a real first person view... you are not glued to your seat

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gQA566PVpw

Secondly, when I'm using my HOTAS irl, I can look down at exactly the same cockpit flight stick and throttle in VR moving in perfect synchronicity with my actual hand motions. I press the fire buttons and see my fingers in VR press the same fire buttons on the VR flight stick.

Same for SC, you see your hands moving the same way your hotas/hosas if your ship has the same configuration (not all ships are HOTAS).

Thirdly, when I sit back down, my office seat is in exactly the same position as my VR pilot's seat (of course), so while you're clicking your mouse on the glowing orange seat in SC the message that says "ENTER YOUR SEAT", I'm actually sitting in my pilot's seat.
So without experiencing any of this yourself, do you really think you have the authority or experience to say to everyone here that "You ARE the ship, not a human"?

Seeing your body glued in the pilot seat while exploring the cockpit and not beeing able to interact with things outside of seat or open a door and visit the rest of the ship is enough for me to know I'm the ship. All I can see in the first video is that the game let me detach the camera of my body to visit the place (because the guy in charge at FDEV said "why not ?"), not that I (as a human) walk in the ship.

 

[Mole HD]

I will say, for the sort of games you and I play, TrackIRs better IMO due to the number of keystrokes involved in for example DCS.

I've stuck with my Tobii 4c for over 5 years. Can't fault it with anything I play

 

[Mole HD]

It's real immersion rather than that "It's immersive because you need to take a train ride to get to your spaceship" type of immersion

I do believe it depends on the number of degrees of freedom your head tracking gives you, but one of the advantages of the head tracking in VR is that those cockpit pillars that obscure your view become much less noticeable. It's easy to shift your head to see what was behind them. I see some ships in Star Citizen that have these wee horizontal slits to look out of and I think to myself that it must be annoying not to be able to move forwards a bit to get a better view

I have 6 dof with the Tobii 4c in SC...so leaning forward or sideways to look under the canopy lip or out of the side windows or glancing behind the seat is fairly natural. I can even use on foot in first person view for looking around...use the mouse for orienting my body instead of my head. The main advantage of a head/eyetracker over VR for me is the ability to turn my head in one direction and use my eyes to glance in another...like back at an instrument panel or MFD. It's kinda intuitive rather than moving my entire head to look around a cockpit. I tried VR with a Quest 2 in IL2...but the spatial disorientation and low resolution had me removing it and going back to the Tobii after 20 minutes. Just what I'm used to I guess

The video is a couple of years old from when Ci~G added full support for the Tobii.

 

[VR Golgot]

SC with VR modding offer a lesser experience but it works also in a real first person view... you are not glued to your seat

The 'lesser' aspects are pretty important on the immersion front though...

This method does NOT provide stereoscopic 3D experience, which currently cannot be obtained due to VorpX being blocked by EAC. Reshade method is supposed to provide 3D, however based on my measurements, it does not do it either, so we are stuck with this until EAC whitelists VorpX.

It's more a glorified headlock like this, rather than a system which convinces the brain of the images' depth & heft etc.

You can do comparable hacky things with ED to play on foot (with the avatar in the correct place etc). They're just not particularly good . (Lacking stereo depth, prone to latency, a massive faff to set up & maintain etc).

The main boon of native VR in ED currently is just having that full feeling of a physical ship and landscape around you as you pilot. (Being able to roomscale around in full VR inspecting coffee machines, while your headless pilot body stays in the seat, is more of a fun bonus. Unless you really must stand on the bridge saluting as your ship auto docks at a station )

 

[Old Duck]

What I can see is good VR but also that the pilot is glued to the seat... my head visit the cockpit, not the rest of my body.

I have a mod for that!

 

[LittleAnt]

I have 6 dof with the Tobii 4c in SC...so leaning forward or sideways to look under the canopy lip or out of the side windows or glancing behind the seat is fairly natural. I can even use on foot in first person view for looking around...use the mouse for orienting my body instead of my head.

The video is a couple of years old from when Ci~G added full support for the Tobii.

I don't have a Tobii but it seems you can also select a target with it

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uu665mscFU

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

The 'lesser' aspects are pretty important on the immersion front though...



It's more a glorified headlock like this, rather than a system which convinces the brain of the images' depth & heft etc.

You can do comparable hacky things with ED to play on foot (with the avatar in the correct place etc). They're just not particularly good . (Lacking stereo depth, prone to latency, a massive faff to set up & maintain etc).

The main boon of native VR in ED currently is just having that full feeling of a physical ship and landscape around you as you pilot. (Being able to roomscale around in full VR inspecting coffee machines, while your headless pilot body stays in the seat, is more of a fun bonus. Unless you really must stand on the bridge saluting as your ship auto docks at a station )

I think its more the potentials it offers.

For me, being 'locked' into positions (such as you are in Multi-crew vehicles in ArmA, or Elite) is not as good an experience in terms of flexibility I experience in games of Wolfpack, for example.

 

[Mole HD]

I don't have a Tobii but it seems you can also select a target with it

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8Uu665mscFU

Yup, you can. I really rate the Tobii eyetracker very highly for anyone into games with flying bits. I bought mine originally for use in ED many moons ago. Besides all the flight sims and space games, it's a great boon in ArmA or fps games too if they support it...it means your eyes and head aren't locked immovably to where your weapon is pointing, peripheral vision is a wonderful thing

Driving games too, looking into the apex of corners etc...

A very old video from Horizons days..

And DCS from the gunner seat of a Hind...

 

[Agony_Aunt]

I think its more the potentials it offers.

"potential" - its a word you hear often in relation to SC.

I prefer to focus on what I can actually do in a game, not what one day might or might not be.

 

[fzfq3m]

"Our modding tools will allow players to design new ships for both submission to the persistent RSI ship dealer network or to build custom ships and items for the self-hosted multiplayer mode."

Sooo… In the past, I know we talked about <insert kickstarter feature here>… and I… we are not going to have anything player facing…

 

[cigwatch]

Will anyone please finally tell LA that it is not really him in SC?

 

[VR Golgot]

I think its more the potentials it offers.

For me, being 'locked' into positions (such as you are in Multi-crew vehicles in ArmA, or Elite) is not as good an experience in terms of flexibility I experience in games of Wolfpack, for example.

For sure. (Although in SC's case the 'Tier 0' nature of most of the support seats keeps that mainly in the 'potential' / roleplay category . Outside of turrets etc)

Ant's initial argument was about immersion though, and we were contrasting SC's 'seamless sets' immersion etc, with the presence of VR. I was just saying there that hacky mods for SC don't really suddenly give you the best of both worlds. Running to the turret with poor framerates, your vision lagging behind your head movements, and without depth perception sparking that core VR magic, wouldn't be hugely immersive . (Unless you're roleplaying someone stricken by a poor oxygen mix perhaps )

Ultimately it comes down to taste when weighing up this '2D multicrew potential' versus 'VR piloting' etc. For me the latter wins, in that particular duke out, but that's just coz I flat out love me some VR immersion

Anyone who does want 'VR multicrew on foot' should probably give Pulsar: Lost Colony a go though. Even if it does look like this

Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=43h9TFShAak&t=3650s

 

[Old Duck]

A RAM drive is RAM, by its very definition it's the same speed as RAM, because it is RAM.

Minus the overhead required to simulate being a drive (file system, etc). Also, there used to be physical devices with RAM slots and a battery that you would plug in just like an old EIDE drive which were way faster than physical hard drives but obviously limited by bus speed. This was before SSDs, so I can't imagine they are still being produced today.

Personally I don't see any reason to use a RAM drive as you describe for a single application like Star Citizen, because it'll more likely slow things down than speed things up, not to mention - who has enough RAM to store the entirety of this game AND play it at the same time?

Now something I do which is kinda like a RAM drive but not, is I have enough RAM so that I can disable my page file and just keep everything in RAM without constantly swapping stuff to my SSD. When Ant said put the page file on an SSD, I'm thinking "That's really not the fastest way to handle a page file." My computer has also become much more stable since disabling my page file (which I couldn't do until I doubled my RAM) - not a single CTD on major games like MSFS, SE, or X4. Of course I'm sure someone will come along and tell me how wrong I am, but my own experience says otherwise. So, has anyone tried running Star Citizen with swap turned off?

 

[Skizomeuh]

Yup, you can. I really rate the Tobii eyetracker very highly for anyone into games with flying bits. I bought mine originally for use in ED many moons ago. Besides all the flight sims and space games, it's a great boon in ArmA or fps games too if they support it...it means your eyes and head aren't locked immovably to where your weapon is pointing, peripheral vision is a wonderful thing

Driving games too, looking into the apex of corners etc...

A very old video from Horizons days..

And DCS from the gunner seat of a Hind...

I read Tobii Eye implementation in ED is not very good (for the price tag). Maybe it was for the previous version? Though only 3DOF in ED with the last version and even if it's already great (my edTracker does wonders) I must admit implementation in SC looks top notch.

 

[LittleAnt]

Now something I do which is kinda like a RAM drive but not, is I have enough RAM so that I can disable my page file and just keep everything in RAM without constantly swapping stuff to my SSD. When Ant said put the page file on an SSD, I'm thinking "That's really not the fastest way to handle a page file." My computer has also become much more stable since disabling my page file (which I couldn't do until I doubled my RAM) - not a single CTD on major games like MSFS, SE, or X4. Of course I'm sure someone will come along and tell me how wrong I am, but my own experience says otherwise. So, has anyone tried running Star Citizen with swap turned off?

If you disable your pagefile in SC, you will have specific crashes. Tested by a lot of guys on reddit, some with 128GB ram. SC (but also some other softwares) use a small amount of pagefile whatever quantity of ram you have.
How much ram do you have ?

 

[Old Duck]

If you disable your pagefile in SC, you will have specific crashes.

Sounds like bad code to me

SC (but also some other softwares) use a small amount of pagefile whatever quantity of ram you have. How much ram do you have ?

Yes, this is usually the argument I hear when people tell me I need a page file, but I guess I'm lucky as nothing I'm currently running has this issue. Now before I upgraded from 16 to 32 GB, Space Engineers of all programs would eventually crash with a specific "Out Of Memory" error in certain situations. But now with my measly 32 GB, I can run Microsoft Flight Simulator for hours on high-ultra settings and Firefox open in the background, and it's completely stable. Same goes with Space Engineers and X4 Foundations (both of which can be memory hogs due to all the "pieces" being tracked).

At this point, if I had a program that required me to reenable the page file, I'd probably just get rid of that program rather than lose the stability I gained by getting rid of my page file. Page files are a relic of a bygone era, just like the floppy drive. I'm not, however, above buying more RAM if that's what is necessary for something like, say, Starfield, assuming it's the Game of the Century some of us imagine it to be.

ps - if you enable swap in SC, you will also have specific crashes