Expose more info about solo/pg player actions in station info

[Darrack]

I am beginning to think this forums has a "rewind" button somewhere...

They come along very often, sometimes with good ideas, but all have that underlying theme.

O7

 

[WhiteHaulerMan]

They come along very often, sometimes with good ideas, but all have that underlying theme.

O7

The consensus on these forums is everyone loves the mode system and animoty it offers.. right until someone in another instance does something they dont like, such as shutting stations down in the old days.

 

[Robert Maynard]

How is it odd, in a massively multiplayer game which has a vast, connected database where everyone influences each other its an 'odd contention' to know what someone is doing who may be working against you?

It's not odd from the perspective of one who only accepts the game as an MMO - however they are not the only players in the game and have no innate right of access to information relating to what other players are doing in game, e.g. player location is not given by the game unless the player in question has chosen to accept a friend request or wing invite or shares it on a third party application, similarly players cannot be directly messaged when not in the same instance unless a friend or on the same wing.

Again you are veering into modes as usual when this is nothing to do with playing in them, its the information generated in the modes being exposed to everyone playing. Like it or not, regardless of mode you are playing with other people and hiding what you do by default runs contrary to that.

The modes are social filters at the core of the game - and players get to choose who can see what they are doing, or not, as the case may be.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It's not odd from the perspective of one who only accepts the game as an MMO - however they are not the only players in the game and have no innate right of access to information relating to what other players are doing in game, e.g. player location is not given by the game unless the player in question has chosen to accept a friend request or wing invite or shares it on a third party application, similarly players cannot be directly messaged when not in the same instance unless a friend or on the same wing.

Well what is ED then, if its not an MMO Robert? Are you now saying ED must now ask permission for people to display CMDR names on bounty boards just in case?

In the end if you do an action, that action and its cause should be recorded or at least visible in a proactive way, not 24 hours later. Powerplay does this much better than the BGS does (mainly as PP is much simpler)- but radically expanding popular goods, actions and traffic reports, and make navs useful is what is needed. Having affiliations also helps with PMF/ Power disputes.

The modes are social filters at the core of the game - and players get to choose who can see what they are doing, or not, as the case may be.

You can opt out of seeing others, but you can't opt out from affecting them via the BGS. Hence, why your actions need to be reflected better in the information the game gives.

And I find it odd too that this would be a benefit in Open since things like threat levels in systems would be much more illustrative since aggressive players would be indicated.

 

[Robert Maynard]

Well what is ED then, if its not an MMO Robert?

It's a game where all players affect and experience a changing galaxy state but where other players are an optional extra. Some players may choose to play it as an MMO with all the tropes that that assumes, no-one else needs to.

Are you now saying ED must now ask permission for people to display CMDR names on bounty boards just in case?

No.

You can opt out of seeing others, but you can't opt out from affecting them via the BGS.

Indeed - that's the fundamental premise of the game - and no player needs to accede to the desires of other players.

Hence, why your actions need to be reflected better in the information the game gives.

Not to the degree of identifying individual players who can choose not to share anything about their gameplay.

 

[Greasetrap42]

In the end if you do an action, that action and its cause should be recorded or at least visible in a proactive way, not 24 hours later. Powerplay does this much better than the BGS does (mainly as PP is much simpler)- but radically expanding popular goods, actions and traffic reports, and make navs useful is what is needed. Having affiliations also helps with PMF/ Power disputes.

You can argue all you want.

a) You are arguing for something not being asked for in the OP's suggestion. You have derailed the thread. Maybe make your own thread.

b) You are arguing for something that will never happen in ED. You aren't understanding the ramifications, fine I get it. You don't understand. Move on.

 

[Rubbernuke]

You can argue all you want.

a) You are arguing for something not being asked for in the OP's suggestion. You have derailed the thread. Maybe make your own thread.

b) You are arguing for something that will never happen in ED. You aren't understanding the ramifications, fine I get it. You don't understand. Move on.

Threads do change, and my point of view is not that far away from the OP, just treating all modes equally, including Open.

I understand the ramifications just fine, because there very few (none for people in solo or PG) and for Open its the same as Powerplay.

 

[Rubbernuke]

It's a game where all players affect and experience a changing galaxy state but where other players are an optional extra. Some players may choose to play it as an MMO with all the tropes that that assumes, no-one else needs to.

Well FD disagrees with you:

Indeed - that's the fundamental premise of the game - and no player needs to accede to the desires of other players.

And is totally the point of what I'm arguing- what players do and where they go (within the bounds of the game using mechanics available) should be indicated better so other players can respond in kind to those actions.

Not to the degree of identifying individual players who can choose not to share anything about their gameplay.

So what is it then? The BGS is all encompassing or that you are allowed to opt out of being identified in it, even when you did something that impacts others who may want to countter or stop what you do?

 

[Darrack]

Well what is ED then, if its not an MMO Robert? Are you now saying ED must now ask permission for people to display CMDR names on bounty boards just in case?

In the end if you do an action, that action and its cause should be recorded or at least visible in a proactive way, not 24 hours later. Powerplay does this much better than the BGS does (mainly as PP is much simpler)- but radically expanding popular goods, actions and traffic reports, and make navs useful is what is needed. Having affiliations also helps with PMF/ Power disputes.


You can opt out of seeing others, but you can't opt out from affecting them via the BGS. Hence, why your actions need to be reflected better in the information the game gives.

And I find it odd too that this would be a benefit in Open since things like threat levels in systems would be much more illustrative since aggressive players would be indicated.

I think the counter argument is mainly that MMOs never give you any details of players or whats going on.
Yes some give you a search option (WOW / Everquest) but you can opt to be Anonymous and your location wont show up.

The closest comparison i can give is from WOW.
In the early days of fighting at the crossroads you had to enable PvP to get ganked.
Then PvP servers came in (which i Joined).
My team of stealthers (Druids/Rogues) could wonder the horde lands and cities destroying NPCs and other players without anyone being able to do anything about it unless they saw us, no clues other than in world chat a mention of an area under attack.

Wherever you went you had the chance to be attacked unless at some events where there was a sort of truce (often broken by idiots).
But it was a PvP server, you knew this and its what you came for.
Raiding was near impossible and questing peacefully, well forget it, so much so that with the advent of too many complete idiots i went back to my old PVE server (Stormrage) just to have some fun in my last days there.

The point of all this long text of drivel was that if someone wanted to kill NPCs/Quest NPCs or you, there was little warning, you couldn't track them, they effected your game and environment and you had no way of knowing what was going on unless you were on a PVE server where you simply logged a toon of the same faction.

ED is no different, regardless of game mode, you have no idea whats going on unless you see it, yes PP gives you clues but doesn't paint a target on those working against you and so it shouldn't.
Yes there's an advantage in Solo that you can go about your PP unhindered but that's just the same as my Night Elf druid sneaking past you in Undercity Sewers.

O7

 

[Robert Maynard]

Well FD disagrees with you:

View attachment 315364

That's one relatively small section. Here's a bit more.

DETAILS​

Elite Dangerous is the definitive massively multiplayer space epic, bringing gaming’s original open world adventure to the modern generation with a connected galaxy, evolving narrative and the entirety of the Milky Way re-created at its full galactic proportions.
Starting with only a small starship and a few credits, players do whatever it takes to earn the skill, knowledge, wealth and power to survive in a futuristic cutthroat galaxy and to stand among the ranks of the iconic Elite. In an age of galactic superpowers and interstellar war, every player’s story influences the unique connected gaming experience and handcrafted evolving narrative. Governments fall, battles are lost and won, and humanity’s frontier is reshaped, all by players’ actions.

Horizons Season Now Included!
Experience a whole new angle on the galaxy with the Horizons season, now included in Elite Dangerous. Journey from the stars to the surfaces of strange worlds, hit the ground running in the Scarab Surface Recon Vehicle, craft weapons, deploy ship-launched fighters and experience exhilarating multicrew co-op action.

A Galaxy Of Wonders
The 400 billion star systems of the Milky Way are the stage for Elite Dangerous' open-ended gameplay. The real stars, planets, moons, asteroid fields and black holes of our own galaxy are built to their true epic proportions in the largest designed playspace in videogame history.

A Unique Connected Game Experience
Governments fall, battles are lost and won, and humanity’s frontier is reshaped, all by players’ actions. In an age of galactic superpowers and interstellar war, every player’s personal story influences the connected galaxy and handcrafted, evolving narrative.

Blaze Your Own Trail
Upgrade your ship and customize every component as you hunt, explore, fight, mine, smuggle, trade and survive in the cutthroat galaxy of the year 3301. Do whatever it takes to earn the skill, knowledge, wealth and power to stand among the ranks of the Elite.

Massively Multiplayer
Experience unpredictable encounters with players from around the world in Elite Dangerous’ vast, massively multiplayer space. Experience the connected galaxy alone in Solo mode or with players across the world in Open Play, where every pilot you face could become a trusted ally or your deadliest enemy. You will need to register a free Elite Dangerous account with Frontier to play the game.

A Living Game
Elite Dangerous grows and expands with new features and content. Major updates react to the way players want to play and create new gameplay opportunities for the hundreds of thousands of players cooperating, competing and exploring together in the connected galaxy.

The Original Open World Adventure
Elite Dangerous is the third sequel to 1984's genre-defining Elite, bringing gaming’s original open world adventure into the modern generation with a connected galaxy, evolving narrative and the entire Milky Way recreated at its full galactic proportions.

And is totally the point of what I'm arguing- what players do and where they go (within the bounds of the game using mechanics available) should be indicated better so other players can respond in kind to those actions.

Some players obviously want that - yet Frontier don't offer them any information in the game relating to a player's location or what they are doing, even in Open, if they choose not to share it.

So what is it then? The BGS is all encompassing or that you are allowed to opt out of being identified in it, even when you did something that impacts others?

Both.

 

[Rubbernuke]

I think the counter argument is mainly that MMOs never give you any details of players or whats going on.
Yes some give you a search option (WOW / Everquest) but you can opt to be Anonymous and your location wont show up.

The closest comparison i can give is from WOW.
In the early days of fighting at the crossroads you had to enable PvP to get ganked.
Then PvP servers came in (which i Joined).
My team of stealthers (Druids/Rogues) could wonder the horde lands and cities destroying NPCs and other players without anyone being able to do anything about it unless they saw us, no clues other than in world chat a mention of an area under attack.

Wherever you went you had the chance to be attacked unless at some events where there was a sort of truce (often broken by idiots).
But it was a PvP server, you knew this and its what you came for.
Raiding was near impossible and questing peacefully, well forget it, so much so that with the advent of too many complete idiots i went back to my old PVE server (Stormrage) just to have some fun in my last days there.

The point of all this long text of drivel was that if someone wanted to kill NPCs/Quest NPCs or you, there was little warning, you couldn't track them, they effected your game and environment and you had no way of knowing what was going on unless you were on a PVE server where you simply logged a toon of the same faction.

ED is no different, regardless of game mode, you have no idea whats going on unless you see it, yes PP gives you clues but doesn't paint a target on those working against you and so it shouldn't.
Yes there's an advantage in Solo that you can go about your PP unhindered but that's just the same as my Night Elf druid sneaking past you in Undercity Sewers.

O7

The thing is, ED is not like that because of the BGS and that everyone has an input into it.

Just as I elaborated before, since its a choice where you go in Open (and you know ahead of time places that are dangerous) you also have (quite limited to useless right now) a threat indicator which would also know who is in system (again all data the game holds). Since in this hypothetical argument modes are still a thing even when you cross to solo or PG your actions still leave better defined ripples that others still have to process, just its harder to do things without drawing attention.

It could be that being low key or a threshold for leaving data is a factor (say via a set level of transactions) so a low paid mission leaves no trace at all while a dedicated BGS player lights up the reports.

The argument here is that regardless of mode your actions leave a trail- not to mention the gameplay possibilities of 'going cold'- having it tied to gov type and events like compromised nav beacons as well as avoiding scans. In Powerplay solo and PG simply allow too much power since the whole premise of it relies on some form of counteracting force. The BGS less so, but the larger your patch gets the more limiting the reports we have get.

 

[Rubbernuke]

That's one relatively small section. Here's a bit more.
View attachment 315365

So a 'connected game experience' until its not? "Reshaped by player actions" who you can never really know who is attacking you?

Some players obviously want that - yet Frontier don't offer them any information in the game relating to a player's location or what they are doing, even in Open, if they choose not to share it.

For a lot of people who are heavily involved in the BGS and PP having much more illustrative info would be great. No one is asking for it on a platter, and that gameplay exists so that you can keep a low profile. In the end if these people are affecting the BGS against each other then they should be able to identify each other.

Both.

So mode inequality is a thing and solo and PG really are stealth modes? For Powerplay thats the kiss of death, and for the BGS its like being attacked and not allowed to know who is attacking. As more and more PMFs lock horns thats going to become (and has become for many I know) an issue.

 

[Robert Maynard]

So a 'connected game experience' until its not? "Reshaped by player actions" who you can never really know who is attacking you?

Indeed.

For a lot of people who are heavily involved in the BGS and PP having much more illustrative info would be great. No one is asking for it on a platter, and that gameplay exists so that you can keep a low profile. In the end if these people are affecting the BGS against each other then they should be able to identify each other.

That's one opinion - not shared by all.

So mode inequality is a thing and solo and PG really are stealth modes? For Powerplay thats the kiss of death, and for the BGS its like being attacked and not allowed to know who is attacking. As more and more PMFs lock horns thats going to become (and has become for many I know) an issue.

The modes are social filters - and no-one needs to play among others when engaging in mode shared game features driven by PvE actions.

The "issue" of players in all game modes affecting PMFs was raised long ago. Here's Michael Brookes' response:

Is there planned to be any defense against the possibility that player created minor factions could be destroyed with no possible recourse through Private Groups or Solo play?

From the initial inception of the game we have considered all play modes are equally valid choices. While we are aware that some players disagree, this hasn't changed for us.

Michael

Zac Antonaci had this to say regarding Powerplay (even if Sandro raised the possibility of change later):

According to some members of the community, Solo players should have a limited or no effect on Powerplay - or, alternatively, playing in Open should offer Powerplay bonuses. Is this something you are considering?

No. For us Solo, Groups and Open are all valid and equal ways to play the game.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Indeed.

That's one opinion - not shared by all.

The modes are social filters - and no-one needs to play among others when engaging in mode shared game features driven by PvE actions.

The "issue" of players in all game modes affecting PMFs was raised long ago. Here's Michael Brookes' response:

Zac Antonaci had this to say regarding Powerplay (even if Sandro raised the possibility of change later):

And none of that is regards the data players generate as they interact with the BGS or PP.

For example in Powerplay: one very old request was for a breakdown of which power did the most UM. This is one basic example of refining the data players get.

I'm not arguing about playing in modes, I'm arguing about the information the player generates in those modes. Without something better you face a faceless enemy day after day when knowing who they are allows either retaliation or communication.

 

[Reggit]

I don't care if your in Open or Solo...
I don't care what your specific Cmdr name is...

But - if I'm working for a faction, and someone is countering me - I'd quite like to know about it.
I often find myself wondering (after playing alot of BGS) exactly how successful have I been? Has someone been working against me? How much? Was it one Cmdr doing one hundred missions - or was it one hundred Cmdr's doing one mission each? Is it targeted or just background noise?

More info could only be a good thing! (And potentially save me alot of time figuring out where to focus my efforts)

 

[Robert Maynard]

I'm not arguing about playing in modes, I'm arguing about the information the player generates in those modes. Without something better you face a faceless enemy day after day when knowing who they are allows either retaliation or communication.

As the game does not currently even let players track other players in Open or direct message them unless in the same instance (or the other player has given their explicit consent) - and where players can choose to block other players from sharing an instance with them in both of the multi-player modes, I doubt that any information identifying individuals and their actions in the shared galaxy would be offered by the game - other than the "bragging rights" leaderboards that already exist, of course.

 

[[Diplomacy] Carnegie]

Or just know who is currently about across modes, so you can make informed choices as what to do yourself?

If I wanted you to make 'informed choices' based on MY activity, I'd add you to my friend list.

If I track the hot girl from the gym to make informed choices about what to do myself, the judge calls it 'stalking'.

 

[Darrack]

The argument here is that regardless of mode your actions leave a trail- not to mention the gameplay possibilities of 'going cold'- having it tied to gov type and events like compromised nav beacons as well as avoiding scans. In Powerplay solo and PG simply allow too much power since the whole premise of it relies on some form of counteracting force. The BGS less so, but the larger your patch gets the more limiting the reports we have get.

Yep and i completely see your point but the issue is it cant be changed.

IF lets say for the sake of argument, all bets were off and PP/BGS was only effected by Open play, my bet is PP would die a slow painful death.
Two reasons:
1) folks like me who are relatively new to the game started PP because it was another safe relaxing thing to do in Solo, if there was a PVP risk i would not have bothered to get involved.
2) and this is the long one ............ balance.

Lets go back to WOW, no really bare with me

There's a guild outside Molten Core (my guild) 25+ of us, in runs around 10 horde, we are annihilated, why?
Are we crap at PvP? No some of us are in the top 10 on the server.
Did we have bad gear? No we worked for months getting our PVE sets.

Wait did you see that ..... PVE sets.

We've just been ganked by PvPers with the same skills as us in top end PvP gear, we had no chance.
This happened a lot to the point we generally had to meet up elsewhere and zone in en mass.

This is where the comparison IS Exactly the same.
If its open PvP only how many folks will do Fortification runs? Not me for sure even in a fully engineered cutter.
Not with the risk of getting ganked with, what 24million credits worth (Rank 5 fast track for 624Ts) of whatever units your faction uses.

Like everyone else im dusting off the murder boat and ganking the gankers.
Im guessing PP would pretty soon turn stale unless you run with a few Wings - the Darwinian method.
How much fun will that be?

The fact is the game isnt balanced for PvP, traders/miners have no chance against fighting ships which is why Open mode as it is will never attract the player base many (including me) would like, and this is without factoring in the insane amount of complete idiots out there.

With this in mind why would Fdev ever change the BGS/PP to be effected by one mode only?
Corporate suicide as far as the player base goes.

Get rid of non consensual PvP and you could make a start on a decent Open experience with every action that effects the universe in full vision or you will never tempt folks away from the warm and fuzzy feeling of Solo or 'friends' servers.

O7

 

[TobiasFuzz]

I don't care if your in Open or Solo...
I don't care what your specific Cmdr name is...

But - if I'm working for a faction, and someone is countering me - I'd quite like to know about it.
I often find myself wondering (after playing alot of BGS) exactly how successful have I been? Has someone been working against me? How much? Was it one Cmdr doing one hundred missions - or was it one hundred Cmdr's doing one mission each? Is it targeted or just background noise?

More info could only be a good thing! (And potentially save me alot of time figuring out where to focus my efforts)

The desired Information could all be obtained. You must invest some time and know how to use the tools that are given. I get the impression the "pro-open" and "more data" players just want to work/play less and get the data free by looking at some stats. It does not work this way... ED is by the way not an MMO. Its a roleplay game. And if you would all start to play it this way then you can easy deal wirh the BGS. I did not want to talk about our methods here, because it is one of our best running business model as a squad. I repeat the hints that i gave earlier in this thread:

Know your surroundings and your neighbourhood. Watch closely how other squads and PMF act over the last weeks. Have a spy network... yes there are cmdrs out there that specialized in infiltrating other squads and given info and data to their original client. Take carefully notes about changes after the tick. Crosscheck all info with the bountyboard. Use Inara to check wich Cmdrs belong to what squadron. Have some other squads, that offering mercenary work, at hand for fast and decisive operations in times of need. This, Gentleman, is how you play the BGS. If you dont want that, sooner or later your 30 member squad gets roflstomped by 4 cmdrs that are very active and know what to do (better hire them before your enemys do it)

 

[Darrack]

Ah yes, next topic, where solo players claim, that open is only about gankers

Hilarious.

Prove us wrong

O7