The Thargoids are more violent then us (with proof)

[Star Wanderer]

You just did though.

First Contact is not a human etiquent, it's a Universal one for all Sancient Species. Especially for species that are millions of years old.
If their first contact is hostility, than that attitude will not change later on, cause they survived like this for millions of years. So their hostility is not going to change if you try to communicate with them. They only know the language of force, and that's what humanity needs to show them in order to survive.
There is no garantee they have a fleet ready to invade and exterminate Humans, none the less, need to be prepared for the worse. Studing and adapting their technologie could help us survive.
But for now our lack of intel on them makes them extremly dangerous.

 

[MrShinyTorterra]

But for now our lack of intel on them makes them extremly dangerous.

Exactly that. We don't know their intent and from what we know they respond with violence. If we had a deeper understanding of them and inside knowledge we would know more about them and could respond better. But we can't learn anything from them. Al we know is that they push towards the bubble and attack us.

 

[Northpin]

You can't put your self in to their shoes, they are not human.

They're sentient.
We're sentient (or at least that what we like to think about ourselves)
Yet we usually destroy every sentient being we run into or at least we try to.

In this conflict, humans are the bad guys, not the thargoids

 

[angusmadmac1]

You can't put your self in to their shoes, they are not human.
You can't project your humanity on to them, they are not human, they are totaly different species.
You need to base your assumption on facts. And facts are:
1. They are much much older than us.
2. They are hostile.
3. They do not want to communicate. Old Guardian records shows the exact same behavier.
4. Guardian records show - defeating them pushed them out of Guardian space, and they never returned.

You can empathise with them all you want, but they will not show the same torwards you. Humans and Thargoids have no common ground to build a relationship on.

Ahhh Guarduans the Millicent bystanders of the universe who were so innocent and living that even their own AI turned against them .
"The progressives' artificial intelligences, the Constructs, witnessed the devastation caused by the conflict and feared the Guardians' propensity for violence would destroy them as well, and decided to eradicate them with their own weapons."
So the guardians were just as bad as us and since the winners always write history .
Again " we woz innocent , we didn't do nuffin " . "They were the bad guys "
"We tried to speak to them, honest ( in best 2nd hand car dealer or politician voice) .
Do the logs show how to communicate ? Nope again only their say so .
Personally I spent a long time in Maia and was hyperdicted on many occasions and was never fired upon . I always took it as them need x amount of humans scans for their engineering .
Go to a Guardian site and they start shooting . So which one is more hostile ?
The storyline has always been Thargoid bad , coming over here and taking our jobs our houses our women push the right buttons and hey presto .... A war which will kill hundreds on both sides for what ? The corporate greed and justification of control . Bread and Circus's.

 

[The Lawful]

They're sentient.
We're sentient (or at least that what we like to think about ourselves)
Yet we usually destroy every sentient being we run into or at least we try to.

In this conflict, humans are the bad guys, not the thargoids

Yes and no, as the same would be true for the Borg. Who defines good and bad?

O7,

 

[Star Wanderer]

Personally I spent a long time in Maia and was hyperdicted on many occasions and was never fired upon . I always took it as them need x amount of humans scans for their engineering .

That's where the problem starts. You think like human, and you project that humanity on to them thinking: They are not shooting, means they not hostile.
But they are not humans, they don't think like humans. To them stoping you could means something totaly different. Their way of waging war could be totaly different from ours.
Until we understand their ways, they can not be treated in human ways.
Their lack of communication with us, is massive danger in it self. Because we can't even draw borders in space with them, so we could stay out of each others way.
For all we know, they could consider all Human space as their own. And since they don't want to communicate, force is the only way.

 

[Northpin]

Yes and no, as the same would be true for the Borg. Who defines good and bad?

O7,

History

The wipe out of sentient beings on Achenar 6d is well documented, we do have a habit of wiping out anyone (humans or aliens) that stand against our momentary interests
Guardians were wiped by their own AI, not by Thargoids

As far as we know, we attacked the Thargoids first, while Thargoids seem only to defend their grounds from humans expansion and vandalizing of their barnacle forests

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

I thought you were talking about those hairless apes ?? Now put yourself in Thargoid shoes .
Humans don't understand first contact and shoot on sight . They have always been the aggressors when we have pulled them out of hyperspace for scanning they have always deployed weapons and not any sort of communication . They have removed our meta alloys and have conducted experiments on living thargoids to try to reverse engineer our ships . Even though they can't live on ammonia world's they tried to destroy these atmospheres for no other reason to limit us . They sent out an indiscriminate virus which killed or maimed thousands of Thargoid women and children etc. .
They could have wiped us out and yet they haven't , why ??

Good question.
Why did they disappear for 1000 years is another, only to be quite upset with the guardians about what they saw... when they returned.

 

[TobiasFuzz]

And since they don't want to communicate, force is the only way.

Are you mad? Such nonsense! Thargoids are a level 2 or 3 species on the kardashov scala. Humans are below level 1. We can not win. To insists on continued combat is madness. We should keep a low profile, stay away from them and hope they let us live. Maybe in 1 Mio years we can talk with them on par.

 

[Star Wanderer]

History

The wipe out of sentient beings on Achenar 6d is well documented, we do have a habit of wiping out anyone (humans or aliens) that stand against our momentary interests
Guardians were wiped by their own AI, not by Thargoids

As far as we know, we attacked the Thargoids first, while Thargoids seem only to defend their grounds from humans expansion and vandalizing of their barnacle forests

"Tragically, the mudlarks were driven to extinction in the early 24th century by bacteria carried by human colonists". True Story.

Also did we really attacked first?:
"Between the 2810s and 2840s, the Galactic Cooperative documented a significant number of ship disappearances in its space and near the Pleiades Nebula"

 

[The Lawful]

History

The wipe out of sentient beings on Achenar 6d is well documented, we do have a habit of wiping out anyone (humans or aliens) that stand against our momentary interests
Guardians were wiped by their own AI, not by Thargoids

As far as we know, we attacked the Thargoids first, while Thargoids seem only to defend their grounds from humans expansion and vandalizing of their barnacle forests

To me, it's kind of watching an ant hill, with the Thargoids. Sentient and maybe sapient for sure. Same as with Mankind. Hive mind vs. individualism. But ethically, of no importance.

The thread title implies that the level of violence determines whether a deed (or even conflict party) is right or justified or wrong. But it doesn't. It is a completely arbitrary criterium. Others could be which species is older (has been there first), which one is more widespread, which one uses less energy, up to questions of climate change. All of these are useful in some aspect, but still category errors in a technical sense. The only relevant question is whether there is a fixed reference point for telling whether an action is good or bad. We can set up our own practical ethics as long as we want, but without a reference to an objective scale, they're completely meaningless, and in effect, anything goes. Or, as Nobel-prize winner Jaques Monod summed it up:

"Man must finally wake up from his thousand-year dream and realize his total abandonment. He now knows that he has his place like a gypsy on the edge of the universe, deaf to his music and indifferent to his hopes, suffering or crime."

Unless there is some higher authority that judges by criteria relevant to itself only, all our deeds and existence are meaningless in itself. Looking around me, I found an enormous lot of hints at such an authority, and that's why I went to search for answers, and todays, believe in God. Something in my heart tells me bloodshed is wrong, even in case of an ant, which (if big or intelligent enough) itself would have no problem with eradicating me or humanity for sure. Where does that value come from? YMMV.

O7,

 

[Star Wanderer]

Are you mad? Such nonsense! Thargoids are a level 2 or 3 species on the kardashov scala. Humans are below level 1. We can not win. To insists on continued combat is madness. We should keep a low profile, stay away from them and hope they let us live. Maybe in 1 Mio years we can talk with them on par.

The more direct and personal contact they make with our Lasers, the better we can understand their technology, the better we will be able to resist them in the future.
Having a looming threat over entire Humanity will help to focus on production of ships, guns and new technology. Else when Thargoids fleets decend upon the helpless Human worlds, it will be too late.
And since they can hyperdirect - Humanity might not even be able to escape the onslughter, and will be totaly wiped out.

 

[EdzUp]

One thing you should be asking, Thargons are drones to Thargoid interceptors. Who is to say the Interceptors are just drones to something bigger? Maybe the Thargoids arent a species at all but a gestalt entity where each ship is like a cell of a much greater whole?

 

[angusmadmac1]

For all we know, they could consider all Human space as their own. And since they don't want to communicate, force is the only way.

They were here first so yes it's theirs . They have superior technology we have to retro engineer stuff we are so far behind them . They could destroy us but they haven't ? Why .
They haven't communicated ? We haven't managed to decode their language so how do we know ? Force is the only way ? Hmmm sounds like the colonists back in the good old days .
They don't count they are animals so we can kill and torture with no thought because they don't deserve any better .
Have a look at the history of the world it's all there we start with making them less sentient or human that makes us feel better killing them for no reason .
Even Commander J would not have delivered the virus if he had known .
At the end of the day the lore is there and depending on which way you go depends on how you interpret it .

 

[angusmadmac1]

"Tragically, the mudlarks were driven to extinction in the early 24th century by bacteria carried by human colonists". True Story.

Also did we really attacked first?:
"Between the 2810s and 2840s, the Galactic Cooperative documented a significant number of ship disappearances in its space and near the Pleiades Nebula"

Thargoid attacks were likely provoked by human hostility; colonists in the Veliaze system had apparently come into contact with a Thargoid deputation and assaulted it out of ignorance shortly before the attacks began.

 

[Banana's_Are_Good_For_You]

"Tragically, the mudlarks were driven to extinction in the early 24th century by bacteria carried by human colonists". True Story.

Also did we really attacked first?:
"Between the 2810s and 2840s, the Galactic Cooperative documented a significant number of ship disappearances in its space and near the Pleiades Nebula"

Your species still caused it, and there were rumours henson ordered it but it's just another example that your species destroys wherever it goes. And ofc, history is written by the victor, after all.
As for the disappearing ships, you may have done exactly the same thing you always do.
It is just in your nature and you will never be able to get past that as you have not changed in thousands of years and still fight amongst yourselves.

 

[cmdr milesred]

wrong on every level and irrelevant argument

more violent is not a criteria for anything other than don't cross that creature....

to win a physical fight, it might matter
to start a fight, irrelevant

what they and ancient races did , also irrelevant

WE stole from them, our fsd is stolen tech . read the lore.
WE ARE Stealing MA's from them en masse via Empire , Federation, Alliance. stations and outposts, etc all put out there so we can steal easier from them.
STOP stealing MA's 100%.
WHY do we need them? moronic answer to fight those we are stealing it from.......duh
Take over farseer and anyone else that WANTS 1 MA to do a job, problem partly solved. no reason we should STILL need 1 MA to unlock 1 engineer.

Then lets have a chat with Hudson.
that dog needs a dirt nap.

That 's just silly.

LET THEM BURN.
They started it and are not even close to smart enough to know to stop.
Our Politicians have proven they can make bad decision after bad decision without ever once showing any concern for anyone but themselves.
Even the Anarchist is a 2 faced POC.
These ARE the ENEMY.
They are the reason killing is they only way to get things done.
They are the reason we are fighting ANYWHERE!!

Let ANARCHY Reign.

 

[Rainbro]

On the topic of the lack of communication and how well human values translate to Thargoids, I find these issues don't usually get applied fairly. We are apparently technologically unable to communicate with Thargoids, but we assume that the Thargoids are just choosing not to communicate with us. Likewise, the Thargoids's values may not map well to humans - a hive society such as theirs likely has no concept of "propaganda" or the military industrial complex, both of which are significantly influencing our own response to the conflict.

However, I also think these issues are both overblown. The statement that "they're not human" is usually just used to discredit the idea that the Thargoids have any logic at all, not just a potentially different set to our own. Yes, we can't assume human behaviour, but that doesn't mean there can't be shared values or that we can't figure out their motivations from their actions. And these motivations have been figured out, both from ingame behaviour and (incompletely) on GalNet. The powers do not want to listen. Formal communication would just be reiterating what we can already figure out, and there is no indication that the powers would be more inclined to listen to a comms message than actions.

Assuming that there isn't a technical barrier and at least one side can translate, this leads to my headcanon on why there seems to be a lack of communication. They're not human. Why should they value words as much as we do?

Actions speak louder than words. Their behaviour throughout our contact with them, mapped out, sends a strong message. The powers do not want to listen.

"The aliens were more interested in scooping up the meta-alloys than attacking us."

 

[Chaparral]

You are not going to have a conversation with a bee or a termite or a white blood cell.

These things are molecular agents of a collective superorganism.

The Proteus Guardian AI might have a conversation with us, but only if we make enough grelics to spread its influence and expand its consciousness.

 

[Magichp]

One could argue that sending a doomsday virus to wipe out an entire species is pretty violent.

So far, they have told us to stay away of their path, whatever that path may be, by taking control of systems and attacking stations (which are our foothold in those systems) . I don't think they tried to wipe humanity so far, so we win on the violence contest

I see people saying Thargoids never tried to communicate... Did you miss the whole honking at a thargoid probe to get a location to go with an even bigger map? Sure, we couldn't decrypt that map, we're not even sure it is a map, but that is 100% communication, even using a code that we understand.

Weird, shadowy and pretty nerdy communication by our standards, but hey ^^