The Open v Solo v Groups thread

[Robert Maynard]

Direct PvP is anything that pits player characters against each other in combat.

The wording "against each other" seems to imply that both players actually engage in combat - which would suggest that it does not apply to interactions where the target goes "pop" without even deploying hardpoints (if installed).

 

[Morbad]

The wording "against each other" seems to imply that both players actually engage in combat - which would suggest that it does not apply to interactions where the target goes "pop" without even deploying hardpoints (if installed).

It's perfectly possible for combat to be entirely one-sided. That said, you can read "combat" as "violent encounter".

Regardless of the words chosen, I think it's clear that attacking even a character whose player is AFK is PvP because these entities interests are clearly opposed and are being expressed through direct violence.

 

[Robert Maynard]

It's perfectly possible for combat to be entirely one-sided. That said, you can read "combat" as "violent encounter".

Regardless of the words chosen, I think it's clear that attacking even a character whose player is AFK is PvP because these entities interests are clearly opposed and are being expressed through direct violence.

In what way is it determined that "these entities interests are clearly opposed", from the perspective of both players in what may, as agreed, be an "entirely one-sided" encounter?

 

[Morbad]

In what way is it determined that "these entities interests are clearly opposed", from the perspective of both players?

It does require the assumption that the target's player doesn't want their character to be shot down, but I think that's usually a fairly safe assumption.

 

[nemolomen]

It is - however some of those players who fly their own ships then complain that the game (no longer) poses a challenge (to them) and then propose that the challenge is increased for all players to deal with that "problem" - there are different ways to deal with the issue without imposing increased challenge on all players to suit the preference of some players.

I fly under-powered ships, which presents me with a) a challenge and b) much less need for engineering (which I like). But I shouldn't have to fly under-powered ships fro it to be challenging...

...

Except for multi-crew, or CQC, or surface stuff.

In Multicrew, Apex shuttle and Frontline Vulture, one is not flying the ship, merely a passenger.

For surface stuff, the SRV and the Suit are analogues of the ship.

I like the space flight aspects a lot, and they were my main attraction to the game, but my character has always been the guy in the ship, not the ship itself.

Odyssey makes that a reality for me.

 

[Morbad]

In Multicrew, Apex shuttle and Frontline Vulture, one is not flying the ship, merely a passenger.

For surface stuff, the SRV and the Suit are analogues of the ship.

SLFs and SRVs aren't customizable at all (aside from cosmetics) and multi-crew lets people use ones their CMDRs don't own. The suits have a degree of customiszation but the selection of suits and the degree to which they can be customized is far narrower than ships.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I fly under-powered ships, which presents me with a) a challenge and b) much less need for engineering (which I like). But I shouldn't have to fly under-powered ships fro it to be challenging...

In the context of a multi-player game that needs to be able to be played single-player, with no difficulty slider, the general challenge posed by the game in the shared game space does not scale with each player (as players of different capabilities may instance together), although optional highly challenging content does exist.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Perhaps this is it. I see an activity with archaic game design (though ofc that can be debated)

"Eye of the beholder", for sure.

and I'm looking at ideas of how to improve it

It is fine to look at ways to change it, but the developer is the only one with that power, so wishes are just that, which is why I just take account of what exists, not wish for the stuff I think it could have, a one-way street to disappointment, isn't it?

- if I understand correctly you'd just move on to something else.

But yes, you are correct, if a game doesn't attract me enough to want to use the only resource I can't replace on it, I move on, if something gets added (as NMS does frequently) I'll check it out.

But it still means that all I'm playing is what exists, rather than dreams.txt.

 

[Morbad]

In the context of a multi-player game that needs to be able to be played single-player, with no difficulty slider, the general challenge posed by the game in the shared game space does not scale with each player (as players of different capabilities may instance together), although optional highly challenging content does exist.

The game could easily scale with each CMDR, based on their in-game history. Notoriety is a token attempt at this, but it's narrow, lacking in depth, and highly transient.

 

[nemolomen]

SLFs and SRVs aren't customizable at all (aside from cosmetics) and multi-crew lets people use ones their CMDRs don't own. The suits have a degree of customiszation but the selection of suits and the degree to which they can be customized is far narrower than ships.

Yes, I forgot about fighters...and no they are not customizable.

Multicrew: Physical or Telepresence or both?

 

[Robert Maynard]

The game could easily scale with each CMDR, based on their in-game history. Notoriety is a token attempt at this, but it's narrow, lacking in depth, and highly transient.

That is the game providing specific challenge in reaction to a player's choices, i.e. targeted against one CMDR, rather than the general challenge referred to.

 

[Morbad]

Multicrew: Physical or Telepresence or both?

Either or for SLFs, physical for SRVs.

That is the game providing specific challenge in reaction to a player's choices, i.e. targeted against one CMDR, rather than the general challenge referred to.

Every CMDR makes a whole lot of choices that should dictate how the setting reacts to them, which seems like it would be a large subset of any general challenge, and the predominant challenge scaling mechanism applicable for anything related to NPCs.

 

[nemolomen]

In the context of a multi-player game that needs to be able to be played single-player, with no difficulty slider, the general challenge posed by the game in the shared game space does not scale with each player (as players of different capabilities may instance together), although optional highly challenging content does exist.

I look at it more as Engineering IS the difficulty slider. The issue there is in min/maxing behavior...not to say its wrong...the whole idea behind this game was to appeal to everyone, or as many as possible, arguably to some a more or lesser extent than to others.

Everyone is allowed to play their way within the license/TOS limitations, which is why gankers exist in the first place, but that's a separate issue.

And this is precisely why I, in my own estimation, believe that everything in the game is optional. However, that may be changing either a little or a lot. Imagine an inhabited system with the currently pre-aggroed Thargoid Interceptors in every instance except supercruise...but that also is a separate issue...

 

[Robert Maynard]

Every CMDR makes a whole lot of choices that should dictate how the setting reacts to them, which seems like it would be a large subset of any general challenge, and the predominant challenge scaling mechanism applicable for anything related to NPCs.

Players make choices all the time and the game does react to some of those choices - noting that the way the game reacts is targeted at the specific CMDR, not all other CMDRs in the instance.

 

[Robert Maynard]

I look at it more as Engineering IS the difficulty slider. The issue there is in min/maxing behavior...not to say its wrong...the whole idea behind this game was to appeal to everyone, or as many as possible, arguably to some a more or lesser extent than to others.

Indeed - the issue arises when those who have slid the engineering slider to the max then complain that there's no challenge and propose that the challenge be increased for everyone.

Everyone is allowed to play their way within the license/TOS limitations, which is why gankers exist in the first place, but that's a separate issue.

And this is precisely why I, in my own estimation, believe that everything in the game is optional. However, that may be changing either a little or a lot. Imagine an inhabited system with the currently pre-aggroed Thargoid Interceptors in every instance except supercruise...but that also is a separate issue...

Indeed they are - and that gankers can play how they want to means that there will be those who variously play in different game modes and / or block gankers that they encounter - as no player needs to play among those that they find to be no fun to play with.

If the spread of aggravated Thargoids becomes an issue for players who don't enjoy that sort of content then there are other games to play, noting that Frontier reverted one previous significant increase in NPC challenge quick smart after presumably looking at play-time analytics.

 

[Morbad]

Players make choices all the time and the game does react to some of those choices - noting that the way the game reacts is targeted at the specific CMDR, not all other CMDRs in the instance.

About the only things that could not be easily tailored to individual CMDRs are interactions with non-character phenomena. 9g is 9g for everyone, and a given white dwarf's exclusion zone is the same for everyone.

Most encounters involving NPCs could be individually tailored, would be more believable that way, and don't really need to exclude incidental impact on others as that is already implicit in any direct multiplayer experience. For example, having assassins or ATR drop in on my CMDR can easily extend to other CMDRs in the instance if they don't take care to stand clear, and CMDRs who aren't ranked or reputable enough to take more difficult missions can still tag along, or drop into, the encounters those dictate for mine.

 

[nemolomen]

...

If the spread of aggravated Thargoids becomes an issue for players who don't enjoy that sort of content then there are other games to play, noting that Frontier reverted one previous significant increase in NPC challenge quick smart after presumably looking at play-time analytics.

Did FDev give a reason for the reversion? I guess not if presumption is stated, as it was...

 

[Robert Maynard]

Did FDev give a reason for the reversion? I guess not if presumption is stated, as it was...

Not sure - it was at launch of 2.1, i.e. engineering, there may be some official comments somewhere in discussions / patch notes. Frontier also removed the need for commodities for engineering modifications (rather than just materials / data) as carrying those commodities was a magnet for attack by engineered NPCs.

 

[ethelred]

But it still means that all I'm playing is what exists, rather than dreams.txt

Well yeah I still play the game, not an imaginary version in my head.

It is fine to look at ways to change it, but the developer is the only one with that power, so wishes are just that, which is why I just take account of what exists, not wish for the stuff I think it could have, a one-way street to disappointment, isn't it?

I don't know what to tell you. I like wishing?

Would it be easier to preface every comment by "I know the developers won't implement these ideas but..."

One area I agree with you in that we ought to play the game we have is in Open - fit for unexpected attack at all times and be aware of other CMDRs.

Having that mindset doesn't mean I'm not simultaneously thinking about how it could be improved.

 

[Robert Maynard]

One area I agree with you in that we ought to play the game we have is in Open - fit for unexpected attack at all times and be aware of other CMDRs.

How each player "ought to play the game we have" varies between players - some enjoy the frisson of potential PvP in Open, some don't - and some can't play in either of the multi-player game modes.