Horizons and Base Game 4.0 first impressions

[thistle]

FDev is giving 4.0 to Horizons' owners. All Oddysey owners own Horizons too. Your sense and logic is missing.

No I'm happy for fdev to give access to 4.0 to everyone if they want. My point is some people are insisting they have "bought" 4.0 because they have odyssey. But 4.0 wasn't on sale and fdev can give whatever freebies to whichever customers they decide. The other customers who bought odyssey don't have any entitlement to it.

That's all.

I'm responding with logic to angry entitled ranters (not you).

 

[thistle]

Just finished the 4.0 updates. I don't know if it's just me but visually it looks worse, EHD 3.8 looks better. Maybe I'm just use to the older visuals but I also get a ripple like effect when ever I move my head

the default graphics use the fsr smoothing, it lowers the resolution, go in and change it back to default and it's much closer to horizons.

 

[Episparh]

No I'm happy for fdev to give access to 4.0 to everyone if they want. My point is some people are insisting they have "bought" 4.0 because they have odyssey. But 4.0 wasn't on sale and fdev can give whatever freebies to whichever customers they decide. The other customers who bought odyssey don't have any entitlement to it.

That's all.

I'm responding with logic to angry entitled ranters (not you).

The owning of Odyssey do not bind you to use it nor it voids Horizons ownership. All this is scummy marketing/sales stunt.

 

[thistle]

I now have the product that was promised to me. It took a while, but now it's right here on my hard disk. I already uninstalled client 3.8, because I don't need it any more. Why would I want to speak to my lawyer?

You're the one claiming legal right to something, not me

I legally purchased these products:

And not just once but twice, for myself. So I'm pretty sure I'm legally authorized to play Horizons 4.0, if that's what I want to do. Or did the term "season pass" suddenly lose its meaning?

 

[thistle]

The owning of Odyssey do not bind you to use it nor it voids Horizons ownership. All this is scummy marketing/sales stunt.

No the claim is buying odyssey meant they were promised 4.0 Horizons. And the justification for that is the original roadmap from fdev explaining how they intended getting all the players back together after console release. Which didn't happen.

I'm just arguing against the claim there is some legal right to a version that was never on sale.

 

[Stealthie]

You're the one claiming legal right to something, not me

I think the issue, here, is more about the right to tinker with stuff, rather than any rights that owning something provides, especially as applied to digital media.

Even if you "own" ED/Odyssey, you've still agreed to FDev's EULA and if that says you're not allowed to tinker with the software you really shouldn't be doing it, even if you do "own" it.

Thing is, as well, even though you own "the software", you're still using it to access FDev's servers and that grants them power too.
It's kind of like buying a Tesla.
You might own the vehicle but if you do anything with it that Tesla don't approve of, they're perfectly entitled to remove your ability to use their charging network.

 

[Dillon Fallon]

I think the issue, here, is more about the right to tinker with stuff, rather than any rights that owning something provides, especially as applied to digital media.

Even if you "own" ED/Odyssey, you've still agreed to FDev's EULA and if that says you're not allowed to tinker with the software you really shouldn't be doing it, even if you do "own" it.

Thing is, as well, even though you own "the software", you're still using it to access FDev's servers and that grants them power too.
It's kind of like buying a Tesla.
You might own the vehicle but if you do anything with it that Tesla don't approve of, they're perfectly entitled to remove your ability to use their charging network.

I always thought with the EULA stuff, all you owned was the right to play the game. Nothing else about it becomes yours. Probably me being a bit nitpicky there but I'd slightly disagree with the car analogy only in that at least you could sell that on to someone.

Personally, yeah, I wouldn't be going on a game forum to say I'd been fiddling with how the game allows me access to different DLC options. I'd be expecting a few eyes on me after that anyway.

 

[Northpin]

If it comes with strings attached, it's not a freebie. In this case, access to Horizons 4.0 is clearly tied to ownership of the base game. Horizons 4.0 isn't some time-limited demo available to everyone. It's a feature-complete replacement for Horizons 3.8, available to those who already own Horizons 3.8. And that would include me.

According to FDev statements in the dedicated thread, you didnt purchased Horizons 40.
No mater what was promised in the past, you purchased Odyssey (which gives you access to Odyssey 4.0 and Horizons 3.x)
Horizons 4.0 was gifted to Horizons 3.x only owners, but not to Odyssey 4.0 owners

So you may be walking on thin ice here.

I think the issue, here, is more about the right to tinker with stuff, rather than any rights that owning something provides, especially as applied to digital media.

Even if you "own" ED/Odyssey, you've still agreed to FDev's EULA and if that says you're not allowed to tinker with the software you really shouldn't be doing it, even if you do "own" it.

Then is this aspect, which is even more serious than the one above since you are in blatant breach of the EULA which may be grounds for termination.


And then you have to ask, is this worth it?


Edit: regarding owning the software:
Only FDev owns Elite/Horizons/Odyssey.
We didnt purchased the software, we purchased the permission to use the software, but bound by certain terms and conditions (the EULA)

 

[tolm]

4.0 IS the game now.

Those that have paid for Odyssey, get that - on the 4.0 code base. Those that have not paid for Odyssey get Horizons on the 4.0 code base.

Due to the additional hardware requirements / overheads of the new codebase, FDEV are continuing to make 3.8 available. This makes sense since requiring everyone to upgrade their PC could result in some “problematic” PR as the game they originally purchased would no longer work “as stated” on their original hardware.

(Though, I believe, plenty of live-service games have done exactly that as they’ve evolved over time)

The one thing I’m a bit unsure on is Horizons 4.0 players not being able to instance with Odyssey 4.0 players. That seems odd given that is where any future updates to the game are clearly going. Making Horizons 3.8 available to all seems a very short-term solution.

Unless they resolve that soon, it feels like Horizons 4.0 needs to be made available to Odyssey owners (who presumably shouldn’t need 3.8) in order to not force people to buy Odyssey in order to play with friends who have / vice-versa.

 

[Biff Stryker]

Hi, computer software legality expert here.

So the problem I see, and it's just a technicality, is that Oddy is sold as a DLC. IMO any DLC for a game is add on content to the base game. In this case the way Fdev are treating it (the DLC) is add on content to the base game being 3.8. Now the problem starts with the fact that 3.8 or the "base game" is obsolete and no new content for it. They have upgraded the base game code but for only those that didn't buy the DLC.

This is where it gets tricky and why some are saying Oddy owners are no different than their non-Oddy owner counterparts. No one is entitled to anything beyond what they purchased by law so the whole 4.0 freebie base game for Horizon "only owners" is pretty foggy in the legal sense. How can one own and be able to play the DLC without owning the base game?

With the base game being the 3.8 client and the DLC being a totally different client (standalone mind you) it no longer retains it's DLC status and is a standalone product but is still being marketed and sold as such.

So with the whole instancing issue aside, players are led to believe that the base game is now 4.0 but it's not. Frontier are selling DLC right now for an obsolete game that they can "turn off" at any time, unless they come out and say the base game is not dead and is alive and well as 4.0. That's the whole conundrum and why the outrage. If we pretend that 3.8 doesn't exist, what would Oddy be a downloadable add-on for? If that's the case, Fdev merely needs to change the verbiage and say Oddy is the base game now and market and sell it as such. 4.0 Horizons was just a fun little gift they gave to some people because they like them better than you

I hope that clears it all up and I won't even charge Fdev for my service, it's a "freebie" this time to only software developers that like dinosaurs and roller coasters.

 

[Morbad]

No the claim is buying odyssey meant they were promised 4.0 Horizons. And the justification for that is the original roadmap from fdev explaining how they intended getting all the players back together after console release. Which didn't happen.

I'm just arguing against the claim there is some legal right to a version that was never on sale.

That is not the claim.

Horizons 4.0 was gifted to Horizons 3.x only owners, but not to Odyssey 4.0 owners

My Horizons license was not negated by (pre) purchasing the expansion. If a Horizons licensee is entitled to it, I am entitled to it, because I am a Horizons licensee. No one from Frontier has informed me of my Horizons license being rescinded.

Being able to do something without license to the expansion that cannot be done with license to the expansion is inexcusable and probably far more in violation of the EULA than appending a season tag to a command line to bypass a limitation made in error or neglect.

 

[Vagrant Shadow]

Hi, computer software legality expert here.

So the problem I see, and it's just a technicality, is that Oddy is sold as a DLC. IMO any DLC for a game is add on content to the base game.

I too have wondered where this stands, It does seem strange to have EDO as a DLC yet make the "base" game obsolete (for want of a better way of putting it).

 

[GJ51]

Hmmmm

IIRC - as a Premium Beta player with the additional purchase of lifetime upgrade we were supposed to get all upgrades...

It was never mentioned that we would be intentionally denied access to a particular iteration.

The whole thing just seems silly on FD's part - especially when it's just a simple cli switch that can be entered manually.

Why oh why - what's the point of creating all the controversy?

FD just continually makes the poorest decisions - are they intentionally trying to aggravate the player base for unknown reasons?

 

[Northpin]

My Horizons license was not negated by (pre) purchasing the expansion

Ofc not, you can still use Horizons (3.8)

The confusion may arise from the fact they are calling the new thing Horizons 4.0 instead of Odyssey light.
But the fact remains - 4.0 is a new client, new tech, that you have to pay for (or to have it gifted specifically to you)
And they make that very clear in the launcher by having entries for Horizons (a product, lets say legacy), Horizons 4.0 (a different product, the gift)

Both of us purchased Odyssey 4.0
None of us purchased Odyssey light (Horizons 4.0) - this one "special version" was gifted by FDev to the people that didnt buy Odyssey.

And as an Odyssey owner, the launcher does not allow me to launch the gift intended for other people.
Sure, i may tinker with the launcher, but then i may be breaching the EULA



So until they upgrade the launcher to allow Odyssey owners to launch Odyssey Light (Horizons 4.0), or Odyssey Lightest (Elite 4.0), i think it's better to stay safe


Anyway, while this discussion is rather academic, fiddling with the launcher maybe interpreted as clear breach of EULA.

 

[GJ51]

What about those who bought LEP before Oddity was released?

We were told we would have access to all future releases.

 

[Morbad]

Ofc not, you can still use Horizons (3.8)

The confusion may arise from the fact they are calling the new thing Horizons 4.0 instead of Odyssey light.
But the fact remains - 4.0 is a new client, new tech, that you have to pay for (or to have it gifted specifically to you)
And they make that very clear in the launcher by having entries for Horizons (a product, lets say legacy), Horizons 4.0 (a different product, the gift)

Both of us purchased Odyssey 4.0
None of us purchased Odyssey light (Horizons 4.0) - this one "special version" was gifted by FDev to the people that didnt buy Odyssey.

And as an Odyssey owner, the launcher does not allow me to launch the gift intended for other people.
Sure, i may tinker with the launcher, but then i may be breaching the EULA



So until they upgrade the launcher to allow Odyssey owners to launch Odyssey Light (Horizons 4.0), or Odyssey Lightest (Elite 4.0), i think it's better to stay safe

If anyone is allowed access to Horizons 4.0, I am allowed access Horizons 4.0. I see no rational interpretation of the LEP product that could hint otherwise.

There is no confusion and there is no gift. I purchased a license to all current and future versions of this game. For as long as any of those versions are supported, or until my license is revoked, I have access to these products, in accordance with the EULA.

Anyway, while this discussion is rather academic, fiddling with the launcher maybe interpreted as clear breach of EULA.

I'm not fiddling with the launcher, I'm telling the client to connect to the game in accordance with product versions I indisputably have license to access.

Horizons 4.0 is not a separate product. It's Season Two via the 4.0 client software. All Horizons and Odyssey licensees have access to said software and all Horizons and Odyssey licensees have access to said Season.

Certain malicious and punitive interpretations of the EULA might find me in violation for launching the game client via command line, but this workaround is far less likely to be an actual violation of the EULA than a lot of stuff I regularly do to improve the game, including those workarounds in that thread the administration has pinned in the Odyssey forum.

 

[GJ51]

If anyone is allowed access to Horizons 4.0, I am allowed access Horizons 4.0. I see no rational interpretation of the LEP product that could hint otherwise.

There is no confusion and there is no gift. I purchased a license to all current and future versions of this game. For as long as any of those versions are supported, or until my license is revoked, I have access to these products, in accordance with the EULA.



I'm not fiddling with the launcher, I'm telling the client to connect to the game in accordance with product versions I indisputably have license to access.

Horizons 4.0 is not a separate product. It's Season Two via the 4.0 client software. All Horizons and Odyssey licensees have access to said software and all Horizons and Odyssey licensees have access to said Season.

Totally agree

My guess is that the launcher was probably coded with a limited number of entries and nobody at FD knows how to change it...

The version selection box is a stupid design to begin with. You can't even see all the entries without scrolling a ridiculously small bar or switching to kybd input.

It's all just beyond bizarre...

 

[Northpin]

What about those who bought LEP before Oddity was released?

We were told we would have access to all future releases.

Good question
Guess you guys should receive a special version of the Launcher

Maybe open a support ticket?
(but in all the fairness, you do have access to all commercial versions.... see what i did here?)

 

[Morbad]

My guess is that the launcher was probably coded with a limited number of entries and nobody at FD knows how to change it...

The version selection box is a stupid design to begin with. You can't even see all the entries without scrolling a ridiculously small bar.

It's all just beyond bizarre...

This was my initial assumption...old launcher that simply didn't have the slots to handle all the product/client permutations.

I suspect it will sorted out at some point, probably when they discontinue the 3.8 client.

Until then, if I have need to launch Horizons or pre-Horizons, I can do that with the 4.0 client via the workaround. If they ding me on that, so be it. But I do not expect this as playing a version of the game that I paid for by looking at the command executed is, at worst, a far more minor adjustment/modification than those I use to make my shadows look less like ass or their client software actually run on my AMD GPUs.

 

[Northpin]

I'm telling the client to connect to the game in accordance with product versions I indisputably have license to access.

that's the dispute.
The launcher connects to FD Auth servers and check what products you can launch.
You overriding that might be a breach? It seems to me like it is, but the opinions may vary and only FDev has a valid saying in this.

So, dont listen to me, override their launcher, it's time for Outrage