Horizons and Base Game 4.0 first impressions

[Northpin]

When Horizons released in 2015, why did they still call the base game Elite Dangerous instead of Horizons Lite?

No idea, i wasnt around back then... but i'd say the differences between the base game and horizons were a lot smaller than between horizons and odyssey.
At least they shared the same skybox (did they?)

Now the launcher has:
Elite Dangerous: Odyssey
Elite Dangerous: Horizons
Elite Dangerous

So it's a clear separation, much more obvious than this below which i would interpret as a better horizons (but only if you can run it)
Elite Dangerous: Horizons 4.0
Elite Dangerous: Horizons
Elite Dangerous

And there are no system requirement explicit to Horizons 4.0.

 

[danteuk]

.

No idea, i wasnt around back then... but i'd say the differences between the base game and horizons were a lot smaller than between horizons and odyssey.
At least they shared the same skybox (did they?)

Now the launcher has:
Elite Dangerous: Odyssey
Elite Dangerous: Horizons
Elite Dangerous

So it's a clear separation, much more obvious than this below which i would interpret as a better horizons (but only if you can run it)
Elite Dangerous: Horizons 4.0
Elite Dangerous: Horizons
Elite Dangerous

And there are no system requirement explicit to Horizons 4.0.

Except that everyone knows that Horizons 4.0 has the new rendering engine and requires more GPU and CPU power which FDev have been unable to optimize enough to make it playable of previous Gen Consoles, so they cancel consoles and Horizons 3.8 still only exists because a large number of players can't get acceptable frame rates from the 4.0 renderer. If the new renderer gave acceptable frame rates for all current Horizons owners they would have force everyone onto 4.0 and removed the PC 3.8 client - as was their original announced intension before the release of Odyssey.

So Frontier have decided to try and hide the fact you ( because you own Odyssey ) are not being given the Horizons 4.0 option - if Horizons 3.8 and Horizons 4.0 players could instance together this would be much less of an issue.

If you don't own Odyssey then in the launcher you still get:
Elite Dangerous: Horizons [4.0]
Elite Dangerous: Horizons
Elite Dangerous

Frontiers store page doesn't list Horizons as a product any more, only:
ELITE DANGEROUS: ODYSSEY ( requires base game )
ELITE DANGEROUS: ODYSSEY DELUXE EDITION ( requires base name - comes with soundtrack )
ELITE DANGEROUS: COMMANDER PREMIUM EDITION ( includes base game and soundtrack )
ELITE DANGEROUS ( base game - includes Horizons season )

Base game ( includes Horizons 3.8 ):
Processor: Quad Core CPU (4 x 2Ghz)
Memory: 6 GB RAM
Graphics: Nvidia GTX 470/ATI 7240HD

Odyssey ( and by fact that it's same Render, Horizons 4.0 ):
Processor: Intel i5-4590 / AMD FX 8350
Memory: 8 GB RAM
Graphics: NVIDIA Geforce GTX 780 / AMD R9 280x (3 GB VRAM)

 

[Northpin]

Except that everyone knows that Horizons 4.0 has the new rendering engine and requires more GPU and CPU power

Based on the treads we get from the people that are trying Horizons 4.0, i'd say not everyone knows that, or if they know it they expect it to run as good as the Horizons they know

Sure, if you have a beefy gaming pc AND you are not a fps freak, you may not notice that Horizons 4.0 goes for 60fps where Horizons 3.8 went for 120

 

[danteuk]

Based on the treads we get from the people that are trying Horizons 4.0, i'd say not everyone knows that, or if they know it they expect it to run as good as the Horizons they know

Sure, if you have a beefy gaming pc AND you are not a fps freak, you may not notice that Horizons 4.0 goes for 60fps where Horizons 3.8 went for 120

It's more a case of older hardware having a version playable 60+FPS when driving an SRV in 3.8 vs 30+FPS and stuttering in 4.0 even though in 4.0 you will have the simplified planets with their cut-n-paste hand crafted assets tiled randomly vs 3.8 procedurally generated planet terrain.

 

[Morbad]

Yea, but the argument seems to be: but i payed for it.
And some people did pay for 2.0 or 2.1 (i payed for 3.2 version - why i cannot acces it anymore?)

Now they cannot play it anymore.

There is a huge difference between not being able to access something that no longer exists and not being able to access something that still exists, that one has license to, but which is inexplicably cordoned off due to a launcher limitation.

No one expects to be able to play 2.1.x any more because that client software was depreciated years ago and is no longer compatible with the game being hosted on Frontier's servers.

I do expect to be able to launch Horizons 4.0 and even pre-Horizons 4.0, because both the 4.0.0.xxxx client and three seasons of the game are supported by the current server infrastructure.

 

[Morbad]

Not only do they look the same, they are the exact same physical product apparently

There only being one 4.x client was pretty much always going to be a given. There is no reason to have different client software when features can simply be disabled. This is how it was with Horizons and pre-Horizons after they discontinued the DX10/32-bit builds.

It's the same thing with most other software that comes in different editions/flavors. For example, Windows Home/Pro/Education/etc are all identical binaries, libraries, and other assets, just with different features disabled based on which licensing key was used to activate it. You can upgrade from Windows Home to Pro or Workstation with just a license change and a reboot, without any of the underlying software changing.

Even hardware often follows this basic plan of market segmentation. As few material differences as possible, altered as little as possible, to fill as many product SKUs as possible. For example, every RTX 3080, 3080 Ti, 3090, 3090 Ti, Quadro RTX 6000, etc, are built with the same GA102 die...and until the very last stages of production, when they decide what card the GPU is destined for, based on sales information and testing of samples, are those parts, which were all manufactured identically as possible and cut from the same wafers, labeled as different products and have excess features fused off. This sort of thing is even easier with software.

 

[CMDR Ylion]

I really wonder why people are arguing about the legality when everything that needs to be said is that FDev chose to punish their most loyal customers.
As if i would give a flying fart about whether it is technically legal for them to do so or not. (I think it isn´t as i do own a horizons license that would get access to 4.0 and on top of that a odyssey licence that should have no influence on my existing horizons license whatsoever, but i´m a layman and i know this, it just feels wrong)

I do give them the benefit of doubt and think they have absolutely no idea what they are doing in the fist place and will make 4.0 available to all, but if that makes the games future any brighter is questionable. Again and again they prove how utterly broken the inner workings of this company are. It would be funny if they weren´t the devs of one of my favourite games.

 

[GJ51]

I can't see why the Single Player Combat Training can't be moved onto the Main Menu in game and open a slot for EDH 4.0

Assuming they have someone competent enough to do that...

And/or Arena

EDIT: They are already On the Main Menu options and not needed on the Launcher

 

[Morbad]

I can't see why the Single Player Combat Training can't be moved onto the Main Menu in game and open a slot for EDH 4.0

Assuming they have someone competent enough to do that...

And/or Arena

EDIT: They are already On the Main Menu options and not needed on the Launcher

We already have combat tutorials that are similar enough in the more recent clients, but they probably want to keep the install size small for the single player combat training product (which, last time I checked, was built on a much older version of the game).

 

[GJ51]

We already have combat tutorials that are similar enough in the more recent clients, but they probably want to keep the install size small for the single player combat training product (which, last time I checked, was built on a much older version of the game).

But access is already there from the Main Menu of each version.

I haven't played any of them, but are they any different than what is accessed from the launcher?

Is Arena any different depending on how it's accessed?

 

[Morbad]

But access is already there from the Main Menu of each version.

I haven't played any of them, but are they any different than what is accessed from the launcher?

Is Arena any different depending on how it's accessed?

IIRC, the offline combat training product is based on a pre-horizons build from 2015 and is less than 10GB in size.

The Arena product is just a commandline switch for 3.8 Horizons.

 

[Riverside]

I play the Odyssey version of the game. The only reason I might want to be able to use a different version would be because I can do something in that other version that I can't do in Odyssey.

So that will include things like the different C&P rules in 3.8, having different terrain on airless worlds, different functionality in menus, that kind of thing. And of course the ability to instance with players using a different version of the game, something that simply wasn't something I had to consider before Odyssey apart from for console users (and I have always advocated cross-play) which is now potentially improved.

So of course there are some things (different terrain for example) where it would be obviously a technically difficult thing to include in Odyssey (airless worlds could use the older terrain generation, leaving the new style for tenuous atmospheres in Odyssey & potentially allowing for a new, more than just a height-map style for future addition on thicker atmosphere worlds), and some things where only one type can reasonably be used (menus, UI etc).

But instancing & cross play, certainly between Odyssey & Horizons 4.0 should not be a reason to need a different version to be available. It's bad enough that for the past 16 months or so I have not been able to instance with friends that are using the older client, now that Horizons 4.0 client is available there is no benefit to the community to keep instancing arbitrarily separate, it's just a cynical marketing ploy.

 

[galahad2069]

There only being one 4.x client was pretty much always going to be a given. There is no reason to have different client software when features can simply be disabled. This is how it was with Horizons and pre-Horizons after they discontinued the DX10/32-bit builds.

It's the same thing with most other software that comes in different editions/flavors. For example, Windows Home/Pro/Education/etc are all identical binaries, libraries, and other assets, just with different features disabled based on which licensing key was used to activate it. You can upgrade from Windows Home to Pro or Workstation with just a license change and a reboot, without any of the underlying software changing.

Even hardware often follows this basic plan of market segmentation. As few material differences as possible, altered as little as possible, to fill as many product SKUs as possible. For example, every RTX 3080, 3080 Ti, 3090, 3090 Ti, Quadro RTX 6000, etc, are built with the same GA102 die...and until the very last stages of production, when they decide what card the GPU is destined for, based on sales information and testing of samples, are those parts, which were all manufactured identically as possible and cut from the same wafers, labeled as different products and have excess features fused off. This sort of thing is even easier with software.

I knew it was the logical way to do it (although having to dowload and store totally unnecessary models and textures for something you can never possibly need was not a "given", they could have made a lighter version as well), I just find it kind of funny that they can call the exact same heap of Odyssey files an optional DLC once and just another version of a completely different software (Horizons) the next time. Not to mention that the exact same collection of files can have 2 different PEGI ratings at the same time.

 

[GJ51]

... it's just a cynical marketing ploy.

If so, it's not a good one.

Unless a player is interested in the ground game, EDH 4.0 is likely to convince them that the bugs and performance issues aren't worth it.

I've been in Oddity since it launched and have seen enough. I'll be spending most of my time back in 3.8 and It's not because of performance as my rig can handle Oddity with a 5900X 32gb ram and a 3090.

I've moved back to 3.8 because it just plays better for the spaceship pilot role which was why I got interested in ED back in 2014.

Not much motivation to jump into Oddity unless space legs is important to a particular player and it will likely be attractive only to players with some pretty good hardware because of the performance issues.

YMMV

 

[Old Duck]

I just find it kind of funny that they can call the exact same heap of Odyssey files an optional DLC once and just another version of a completely different software (Horizons) the next time.

If Horizons 4.0 was truly the base game instead of 3.8, then calling Odyssey DLC would make sense. Lots of DLC is just a key that unlocks code already in the base game. For example, I have to download every huge DLC for ESO whether I buy it or not. All buying the DLC does is unlock the ports and Wayshrines allowing me to travel to the new lands already installed on my hard drive. On the other hand, I can still play with friends in ESO regardless if one of us has a DLC and the other doesn't, as long as we meet somewhere we all have access to.

The fly in the ointment is that Horizons 3.8 is the game Frontier is selling, not 4.0. If this is to remain the case, it makes more sense for Frontier to keep Horizons 3.8 as one game and offer Odyssey as an entirely separate game, not requiring players to buy what is now an obsolete game (3.8) in order to play the new game Odyssey. Of course let them continue to share the same BGS, just don't make "old" Horizons a requirement to play Odyssey. H3.8 is to X3 series what Odyssey is to X4 Foundations, and I didn't have to buy the former to install the latter.

 

[Red Rocket]

Remember Horizons 3.8 is a fantastic game, Fdev worked for years on the engine and after they got it to a good functional place went and thrown it under the bus.
Now we have a game engine that has many flaws, very poor performance inconsistent lighting, all kind of graphical errors.
Just take a Clipper out for a spin and look at the scanner screen’s bright spot.
Drive around the new planet graphics and see the flickering and never stoping of rendering.

How many years will it take to get to the level of Horizons 3.8 ?

 

[Northpin]

And frankly, I don't even see why you are arguing here on Frontier's behalf.

At this point you have to really ask yourself Why are you arguing against them?

If you dont have Odyssey, you should be happy that you get to freeload the 4.0 client.
IF you have Odyssey you should be playing it and not care at all about the people that dont want to buy Odyssey as it happened until now, or instance with them in 3.8
IF the Horizons people dont like the new codebase, they can play in 3.8 and you can instance with them anyway (if you downgrade your experience to 3.8)

But, ideally everyone that can run 4.0 should be in Odyssey and so instancing will not be of any issue and we'd all be a big happy community

That, or they simply could add Horizons 4.0 to Odyssey player launchers.
(But this in no way would help instancing but it would prolong the fragmentation)


Now, if the launcher is the limiting factor, as an Odyssey player i would definitely want to keep Odyssey and Horizons 3.8 (i can revert to 3.8 to solve bugged bounties and fines, get a lift from bugged planetary situations and get to farm raws in a way that i'm familiar with).
I would definitely hate it if (when) we get to lose access to 3.8.

(and not at last, because these are the forums, if i would not be arguing in their favor i'd be arguing against them )

 

[Morbad]

IF you have Odyssey you should be playing it and not care at all about the people that dont want to buy Odyssey as it happened until now, or instance with them in 3.8

Why?

get a lift from bugged planetary situations

I can do this with the 4.0 client, and save myself both 20GB of disk space and having to maintain config files that are compatable with both 4.0 and 3.8.

 

[Northpin]

But instancing & cross play, certainly between Odyssey & Horizons 4.0 should not be a reason to need a different version to be available. It's bad enough that for the past 16 months or so I have not been able to instance with friends that are using the older client, now that Horizons 4.0 client is available there is no benefit to the community to keep instancing arbitrarily separate, it's just a cynical marketing ploy.

Unless they devote dev resources to plug whatever holes might be in the code and in the logic of the game and make sure a horizons player will never get to murder an obviously human player or npc (and get entertained by post-death ragdoll postures) - instancing between Horizons and Odyssey will never happen. And also Odyssey will never get to fold in the base game as it happened with Horizons.

 

[Northpin]

Why?

Why not?
I can solve whatever Odyssey bugs in 3.8 (and i prefer to do it in 3.8 for the added benefits of easy to find raws)
And if you ask about instancing, i'm not downgrading my gaming experience to entertain someone that doesnt want to upgrade his

And i've tried horizons 4.0 on my recently migrated XB account - with the net result of me getting EDO for that account immediately they discounted it on Frontier Store.
Horizons 4.0 runs as good - or as bad - as Odyssey, without any of the perks offered by Odyssey
And if i want a more atmospheric space experience i fly in 3.8
So as far as im concerned, horizons 4.0 is absolutely useless for me as an Odyssey player.