1.2 vs 2.2 FDL: A comparison

I'm not even a pvper but I strongly against nerfing the fdl or buffing python/clipper in relation wuth the fdl because one simple irrefutable fact : fdl is a dedicated combat ship, it cannot do any significant trading and high haul missions, it cannot has many modules...

Some fools here are like asking a range rover (python) to be as sporty as a ferrari.

Ridiculous, nonsense, stupid.
 
So, what is the reason behind the FDL having more utility slots than the larger Python?

I think it's because it has very restricted internals which cripple it's flexability and utility, compared to the Python which has the opposite characteristics of all the internals a growing boy could want so they reduced the utility slots.
 
Until the FDL was buffed to the current OP proportions, the Vulture was the main toy not just for PvPs but for Combat focused pilots in general. Who's nowadays still talking about that ship?

The vulture didn't drop out of favour due to the FDL buffs, but due to the removal of ship explosion with the PP snipe.

That's all it was good for with two large pulses and such a small distributor.The addition of hull reinforcement on NPCs only further moved it away from its niche, since you now have to be a sitting duck while having sniped a PP and chipping away on thousands of hull left, while everyone can shoot at you.

Of course, that's not to say that the Vulture wasn't a mistake in this game, since it's the ship that started this overagile slippery slope where we now have Corvettes being able to catch up to Eagles.
 
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Honestly? FDev would be best served taking their whole "balance" they've made up to this point and shooting it into the nearest star and then starting from scratch.
 
The thing is, the FDL did not deserve to be at +100m tag price with all the drawbacks it had when it came out in 1.2
I'm not talking about jump range or the lack of internal slots (since it's the way of Frontier to balance combat ships).
I'm talking about a ship that cost +100m and that functionned exactly as a low priced fighter with sometimes even more drawbacks:
- Crappy jump range (predictable)
- Lack of internals (predictable)
- Awful pitch/yaw when outside the blue zone (huh, ok ?)
- Not enough power to use it effectively.
If you did not used the FDL at that time you need to understand first.
At the time we had only two C4 weapons: Cannon and Plasma. Fixed Huge Cannon was much more difficult to use: low velocity, weird damage (sometimes, even know if you hitted your target, you dealt 0% damage to hull/module) etc.
Plasma was more reliable but it meant having to sacrifice a lot: very low shield boosters, Class D sensors and life support, low SCB (2x4C wasn't that bad as you could, at that time, use 2 SCB at once for double the heal). Wich meant that going from place to place was even more tedious as there wasn't any module transfer back in that time. And with the crappy JR + Low Fuel Tank + using a 1x2C Fuel Scoop was just as boring, frustrating and infuriating as you can imagine. And if you chose to ditch one of your SCB for a C4 Fuel Scoop you were AGAIN seriously diminishing the capability of the FDL in combat.
As a conclusion, combat was a chore. You just felt that something was wrong here. You spent almost 200M for a combat ship that was not superior to it's "polyvalent" counter-part (Python). In fact, engaging anything as big/larger than a Python (alone) was a risky decision. It just didn't felt right.
Sure you had to learn how to fly it, because the FDL is not a Viper/Vulture, but still.
So cutting the price in half (as it did for the Vulture) was justified IMO.
Everything was still a chore but it felt more fair.

Then, the FDL got buffed.
And I'm sorry, but I still think it was also a good thing.
At last we were capable of using all it's potential. Even more welcomed, was the new C4 weapons ! The FDL got finally superior to the Python or other medium ships, as it should have been since the beginning IMO.
It was before the Engineers (I'll come to that), so 25.2 MW was just enough to make it a beast without making it too OP (others think it was already OP but that's another story).
Basic build in 1.2
Basic Build after the Buff
BUT, because there's a but, I think it's current price tag is NOT in line with what it can do now. It should go back to what it was before.
It's a beast. It's easily accessible (no ranks required). With what the FDL has NOW in his belly, THE SHIP SHOULD BE EXPENSIVE.
The FDL wasn't in line back in 1.2 so the price was cut.
But now it is, and it should go back to +100M Cr.

And then, on another topic... Engineers.
I mean, my FDL (using it since 1.2) is now a beast, as it should, and I can jump at 18,50ly thanks to the Engineers.
Sure, I have no internals but it's now the only major drawback I can find.
I also upgraded the power plant, up to something like 29 MW so power is even less of a problem now. Meaning I can upgrade all the weapons/SB I want without asking myself if I'll have enough power. I know I have enough.
So yeah... there's that.
Unfortunately, I think now it's too late to drastically change what the engineers do and how they work. Harm is done. Not just for the FDL but for the Big 3 as well.
That's why I'm disappointed that the diminishing return of the SB was not added to the latest patch.
I love my FDL, I'm absolutely happy that I was able to upgrade the FSD to G5.
If tomorrow FD forces us to remove all the RNGineers upgrade and keep only one, that's the one I want to keep.
But, more seriously, something should be done about SB.

EDIT:
Forgot to add. I was very excited to see what could be done with the diminishing return on the SB.
SCB would have been more useful in the FDL (C4 A SCB only recharge somehting like 10-15% of your shield in this ship). We would not have to focus everything on Shield Boosters, meaning we would be able to add other useful utilities, without that little voice telling us that this is not the way to go. I sincerely hope diminishing return... Will return :p
 
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Although I fly an fdl myself I don't really understand about one thing, is the single c4 weaponry really make fdl superior to fas and python in term of firepower?

The fas has 2 large guns aside from 2 med, rough estimate tell me that isn't far from fdl, the python even has 3 large guns, isn't estimation give it still more punch than fdl?

So the fdl is twice more expensive than a fas but doesn't deliver twice the punch as a fas, and the fdl while cheaper to maxed out than python but still as a dedicated combat ship packs slightly less punch than python.

If it were up to me if you want the fdl to cost 100 million net it still need more puching power like at least 2 more medium guns.
 
I think the FDL is fine as-is .... the Vulture is the step down - which it should be as its meant to be a superiority fighter
The FDL has little 'other' use - if any .... its a killer ship for the well heeled ... its probably one of the most 'on point' ships in the game.... its designed to kill and little else and it does so in luxury!
The vulture hits hard but is much more utilitarian
Its a fine 'medium' landing pad ship that is a total shield-tank

Python shouldn't be able to out-hit it ... the Python can jump 30% further, can carry masses of cargo and hold its own in a fight .... it is multi-role .... The python has internals but lacks high end shielding so has more overall usage. The FDL has gimped internals but utility slots to push the shields way up, yes its fast but has a very unique flight model ... the vulture is more like a wasp ...it can swarm you, it can pitch super quick but changes momentum same.... FDL is slightly more boom and zoom but can with management keep in tighter
 
http://i.imgur.com/fmAj8iS.png

FDL has gotten a lot stronger since its original inception. Thoughts?

Took them long enough. It was useless for anything but PvP with a handful of us flying it just for fun and aesthetics, kind of like those poor Orca pilots back in the day.

The fact that it's De Rigeur for PvP is more of an indicator that combat favors medium ships, not that combat favors the FDL. The FDL just happens to be the top choice in medium class, and that's what it was designed to be, so it's working as intended.

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So, what is the reason behind the FDL having more utility slots than the larger Python?

Balance, same reason the Python has a longer jump range than a combat ship when position and logistics wins every war in a 3d arena.

Thank FDev's balance non-logic. It also brought us the DBX, Cutter and Courier's ridiculous weight values and random weights for armor plating.
 
The FDL buff considerably diminished it's appeal for me. It went from a ship that, like the Viper MkIII required a great deal of thruster and pip control to operate correctly, to just another indulgent piece of fan service that was the obvious choice for almost anything combat related.

I still like the ship, but it's no longer my favorite as it was in 1.2-1.4 and now that my Corvette has SLFs, I've been procrastinating in getting back to my FDL.

At that time the Python was a better fighter

No, not really:

[video=youtube;g4j6EvNH1uQ]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g4j6EvNH1uQ[/video]

Python could win most 1v1s (still can), but 2v2, or even 3v4 in favor of the Pythons, the FDL's speed and mobility gave it an enormous tactical edge and allowed it to wolfpack slower vessels.

If you are talking about it's use vs. NPCs, I don't agree here either. The FDL can (and always could) avoid damage much more easily than the Python. When I was primarily an FDL pilot, my ship was never as much a limiting factor in PvE scenarios as my human endurance was. I could stay in a RES or CZ until I collapsed at my controls if I felt the need to.

My combat FDL got me to Sag A* fine at the end of 1.2/beginning of 1.3 and I hit many more stops along the way than a Python would have!

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...here-Move-it?p=2372309&viewfull=1#post2372309
 
Although I fly an fdl myself I don't really understand about one thing, is the single c4 weaponry really make fdl superior to fas and python in term of firepower?

The fas has 2 large guns aside from 2 med, rough estimate tell me that isn't far from fdl, the python even has 3 large guns, isn't estimation give it still more punch than fdl?

So the fdl is twice more expensive than a fas but doesn't deliver twice the punch as a fas, and the fdl while cheaper to maxed out than python but still as a dedicated combat ship packs slightly less punch than python.

If it were up to me if you want the fdl to cost 100 million net it still need more puching power like at least 2 more medium guns.

Actually, if you do the math, the python has slightly greater firepower compared to the FDL, assuming similarly styled loadouts. IMO, if you want the FDL to cost 100 mil, then swap a pair of the class 2s hardpoints with class 3s. Would certainly make for much more interesting loadout options at that price point.
 
I don't think that anyone really had much of a problem with the position of the FdL in 2.2.03 ... when we thought that shield booster stacking was going to be curtailed, that is.
 
Actually, if you do the math, the python has slightly greater firepower compared to the FDL, assuming similarly styled loadouts. IMO, if you want the FDL to cost 100 mil, then swap a pair of the class 2s hardpoints with class 3s. Would certainly make for much more interesting loadout options at that price point.

then it's true, even with the current price IMO the FDL still lack more hardpoints, it still need to be buffed :D due to exactly what the guy above said, plus the fact that FDL cost twice as much as FAS while far from having twice the firepower.
 

Deleted member 94277

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It seems to be the much dreaded "way of least resistance" now, something that FD says they normally try to prevent.

I am not happy that gamers often just seem to ask for this one ultimate ship / character class / whatever, effectively limiting their choice to it. :(

I guess the problem is that often, specially in MP environments, there's an optimal ship/class/whatever. The developers actively creating it contribute to a more balanced and controlled gameplay.
 
then it's true, even with the current price IMO the FDL still lack more hardpoints, it still need to be buffed :D due to exactly what the guy above said, plus the fact that FDL cost twice as much as FAS while far from having twice the firepower.

Wut???
My combat FAS costs 78.6 M cr, a fast clicked FDL would cost 84 M cr (no, you won't need Military armour here!), has 93.8 DPS whereas the FAS only has 64.4 DPS.

So, where costs the FDL doubled so much as the FAS and has literally less firepower??

(yes I know you were kidding and writing a very sarcastic post...)
 
Wut???
My combat FAS costs 78.6 M cr, a fast clicked FDL would cost 84 M cr (no, you won't need Military armour here!), has 93.8 DPS whereas the FAS only has 64.4 DPS.

So, where costs the FDL doubled so much as the FAS and has literally less firepower??

(yes I know you were kidding and writing a very sarcastic post...)

how manipulative comparing an FDL with lightweight armor vs military grade one... :rolleyes:
 
a FDL is strong in Shields not in Armor ;-)
on the other hand the FAS needs all Steel plates it can mount...

not relevant. If you were to completely combat fit both ships, best shields, best armor, SCBs, similar weapons. The FDL still comes out being significantly more expensive. You were manipulating the data there.
 
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