Horizons 1994 vs 2016

[body count]

I find it amazing that we could have immersive missions in 1994 and we can't get anywhere near that in 2016.


Compare how a mission briefing looked in 1994 in wing commander to missions in elite:
[video=youtube;vXsHFVfgReM]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXsHFVfgReM[/video]


1. Notice how you can pick your wingmen (yes, the thing we will never get here in missions or as escort for traders, from some to me, unknown reason ).
2. Observe the description of a mission and goals of a mission


Now to how mission actually played:
[video=youtube;ifMIHEDxgOU]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifMIHEDxgOU[/video]


1. Notice that in 1994 you actually had multiple communication options, ranging from various options or commands for your wingmen to talking to the enemy.
2. Notice how enemy actually talks back to you and so do your wingmen (let's ignore the fact that not only does it talk it also shows up on the screen while at it and it looks damn fine)
3. You can also see that mission has various enemies in it, from capital ships to smaller fighters, multiple waves, jumps, points (and each one feels different from the last, ranging from fights near planet surface, fighting capital fleets, ...)
4. There's energy management as in elite, but the weapons choice is made on one of the screens like on fighter jets, by simply activating or deactivating them (the screen is multi purpose screen, it includes other stuff like power management, communications, ... )
5. You can also see that enemy ships when they are damaged show shields down (front, left, right, back) and how much of which part of the ship is damaged.


At the end, when he asks for docking permission, he actually says it and mother ship replies (as it does in elite now!).


As someone who bought wing commander 3 when it came out and elite dangerous when it came out I got to say I'm quite dissapointed with how missions STILL look or feel in elite in 2016 compared to a 1994 game.

 

[who?]

Impressive, but they are two very different scenarios.

If Frontier added cutscenes like that to scripted missions, how long would they keep us entertained? Bearing in mind this is a game that's intended to last 7-10 years. Plus, a multiplayer is intrinsically different to singleplayer: it limits how much you can influence the world. Perhaps in a single-player game you might have a mission to wipe out the enemy flagship, but in a multiplayer game that could only happen once for a handful of players and the rest would be robbed of the experience.

 

[Kyokushin]

22 years difference. I am so old. I have still WC3 on my bookcase.

 

[Andovar]

I think sometimes people forget about the scope of ED.
It's not just the galaxy that's huge. There's literally tens of thousands of factions and mission givers. Imagine if they tried to do cut-scenes for all them?? ED would be going the same way SC has, and we still wouldn't have a game to play.
Plus, like 'who?' mentioned, things change significantly when you go from single to multi-player.

 

[Titus Balls]

Harsh.... I forgot the ending of that game.

Skywalker does an Alderaan and kills billions of innocent lives caught up in the war.

 

[Pville_Piper]

If Frontier added cutscenes like that to scripted missions, how long would they keep us entertained?

I hate to break the news to you but that is literally what they have done in almost every mission type. The missions are very scripted. As an example, the recovery missions have 2 basic out comes once you drop down on the USS. The first is you get you cargo and go and the other is you get jumped. When you jumped, it will almost always be by a wing of 4, one in a great while you will get only 2. If you leave the USS and return once you have been jumped, you will always be jumped in that USS until you complete the mission even if you kill all the NPCs. I once fought the AI and killed them but couldn't find the cargo as we drifted away from it in combat. So I restarted the instance to get jumped again by a wing of 4.

It seems like they make up the mission, yup that works, onto the next mission! I think they just try to do too much in a years space and put the bones in but just don't have time to flesh out the missions and give them variety. The whole game is like that. Fair amount of things to do, but not much variation to them and even between missions.

 

[Exiton]

Well, X-COM Interceptor also had different types of ships (player and enemies), different types of modules and weapons, and had communication options and command for your wing men (on screen), and you could also receive broadcasts from your enemies. And rear view mirrors!

 

[Pville_Piper]

I think sometimes people forget about the scope of ED.
It's not just the galaxy that's huge. There's literally tens of thousands of factions and mission givers. Imagine if they tried to do cut-scenes for all them??

Again, they make a mission type, it's not too much different than the last mission type they designed, they get it working (for the most part) and they move on. Yes, the Galaxy is huge! And there's of tons factions ... But you don't have a lot of variation to how interact with them. Hence the criticism "A mile wide and an inch deep."

There is so much more that this game could be and so many great ideas on the forums that it is a shame. I think also you miss the OPs point, the game had much more detail in the interface than you do now. An I agree with that. I hate the whole left panel, right panel system for EVERTHING! Why do I have to request docking by going to a menu? Why don't I target the desired station/ship/poet and press a button... Then I get to FLY the ship rather than fumble with messages and that's more immersive to me. Why, when I'm in combat do I have to go into a panel, tab over and hit a button just to access the sub target list. Why can't I just have a button to quickly bring up this list.? Maybe I could even have it organized by my priorities, not some long list that is a pain to scroll down thru. So much of this game seems like once they achieve basic functionality, they move and never try to refine it. Sad...

 

[who?]

I hate to break the news to you but that is literally what they have done in almost every mission type. The missions are very scripted. As an example, the recovery missions have 2 basic out comes once you drop down on the USS. The first is you get you cargo and go and the other is you get jumped. When you jumped, it will almost always be by a wing of 4, one in a great while you will get only 2. If you leave the USS and return once you have been jumped, you will always be jumped in that USS until you complete the mission even if you kill all the NPCs. I once fought the AI and killed them but couldn't find the cargo as we drifted away from it in combat. So I restarted the instance to get jumped again by a wing of 4.

It seems like they make up the mission, yup that works, onto the next mission! I think they just try to do too much in a years space and put the bones in but just don't have time to flesh out the missions and give them variety. The whole game is like that. Fair amount of things to do, but not much variation to them and even between missions.

Well, no. They haven't added any cutscenes.

And when I mention scripted missions I'm talking about more longer, more detailed, multi-stage, once-off missions than ED currently contains. It's obviously they need to have mission templates to choose from (PG missions could never just be completely random). I agree they could do a lot more to improve them, by offering lots more variety in mission activities, more backstory options, longer multi-stage missions etc. But if you play long enough, you're always going to start noticing you're repeating activity X, activity Y with minimal storyline/character differences which would make them interesting.

 

[Privata]

You are comparing a linear story driven space shooter to an open world space sim?

I mean what you are doing would be like comparing the map of elite dangerous to the ''map'' of WC3

Remeber that the scope of WC3 was tiny and that elite dangerous want to go up and beyond anything :
-Walking around starports
-Walking in/on ships
-EVA
-Ownership of capital like ships
-Atmospheric landings
-Life sized cities
-Underwater (rumoured but I cant see why not)
-Moving astroids and other natural space objects
-Exploring wrecks
-Walking on surfaces
-FPS combat
-exploration of gas giants

And much more , but sadly no cockpit pets

Its important to note a lot of those features have been worked on sins the pre alpha days and are still being worked on right now. for example landing on airless worlds was in the works sins the time of 1.0 of elite.
Given that missions keep getting better over time and , even if currently they are not perfect they are much better than they were in 1.0 so I think 2.2 will add even more work to the missions sins passanger missions are going to be part of it.

 

[Komemiute]

I find it amazing that we could have immersive missions in 1994 and we can't get anywhere near that in 2016.


Compare how a mission briefing looked in 1994 in wing commander to missions in elite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXsHFVfgReM


1. Notice how you can pick your wingmen (yes, the thing we will never get here in missions or as escort for traders, from some to me, unknown reason ).
2. Observe the description of a mission and goals of a mission


Now to how mission actually played:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifMIHEDxgOU


1. Notice that in 1994 you actually had multiple communication options, ranging from various options or commands for your wingmen to talking to the enemy.
2. Notice how enemy actually talks back to you and so do your wingmen (let's ignore the fact that not only does it talk it also shows up on the screen while at it and it looks damn fine)
3. You can also see that mission has various enemies in it, from capital ships to smaller fighters, multiple waves, jumps, points (and each one feels different from the last, ranging from fights near planet surface, fighting capital fleets, ...)
4. There's energy management as in elite, but the weapons choice is made on one of the screens like on fighter jets, by simply activating or deactivating them (the screen is multi purpose screen, it includes other stuff like power management, communications, ... )
5. You can also see that enemy ships when they are damaged show shields down (front, left, right, back) and how much of which part of the ship is damaged.


At the end, when he asks for docking permission, he actually says it and mother ship replies (as it does in elite now!).


As someone who bought wing commander 3 when it came out and elite dangerous when it came out I got to say I'm quite dissapointed with how missions STILL look or feel in elite in 2016 compared to a 1994 game.

WOW! It would be cool if there was a new kind of Wing Commander game in the works... just bigger. Better. Maybe with multiplayer support, co-op or even *gasp* Massively Online? It'd be super cool if you could land on planets too and... EVA...

People would pay an insane amount of cash for...

Oh. Wait.

 

[Privata]

I hate to break the news to you but that is literally what they have done in almost every mission type. The missions are very scripted. As an example, the recovery missions have 2 basic out comes once you drop down on the USS. The first is you get you cargo and go and the other is you get jumped. When you jumped, it will almost always be by a wing of 4, one in a great while you will get only 2. If you leave the USS and return once you have been jumped, you will always be jumped in that USS until you complete the mission even if you kill all the NPCs. I once fought the AI and killed them but couldn't find the cargo as we drifted away from it in combat. So I restarted the instance to get jumped again by a wing of 4.

It seems like they make up the mission, yup that works, onto the next mission! I think they just try to do too much in a years space and put the bones in but just don't have time to flesh out the missions and give them variety. The whole game is like that. Fair amount of things to do, but not much variation to them and even between missions.

If missions were like this in elite , it would suck.
Thats what StarCitizen is doing and your immersion is killed as a resault.

EVE does that as well , you could fly around and see someone doing something and you notice ''oh he is doing mission 201 , thats a good one... good on him'' thats just immersion killing.

The missions in elite are ment to be generic , we are nothing but a cog in the machine.

Yes the missions need a lot of work , they need more varients and feel more immersive , but compared to what we have in 1.0 they are getting there.
I think that breif would be nice in elite and could be done well via PG techniques. ''Go to system X , then scan the area , look for signal sources , go home''

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WOW! It would be cool if there was a new kind of Wing Commander game in the works... just bigger. Better. Maybe with multiplayer support, co-op or even *gasp* Massively Online? It'd be super cool if you could land on planets too and... EVA...

People would pay an insane amount of cash for...

Oh. Wait.

Thats what SQ42 is , but the main game SC will sadly have this sort of missions as well meaning you will be able to work out what mission other players are doing by watching there movement... so immersion killing.
You are the hero , but that guy too is the hero , and that women over there... as well as those other thousands of pilots... you are all heros , you have all saved the galaxy !

 

[beneuto]

I don't think FD have cracked procedurally generating actors yet.

You can't compare a linear, single player campaign with an open world MMO - they are chalk and cheese. In a campaign you are the hero of the universe but follow a predetermined path. A campaign needs around 20 to 70 hours of content and you are done. In MMO's everyone is a hero so basically no one can be. An open world MMO is expected to allow 100s, even 1000s of hours of gameplay and lasts until you get sick of it.

 

[Komemiute]

Thats what SQ42 is , but the main game SC will sadly have this sort of missions as well meaning you will be able to work out what mission other players are doing by watching there movement... so immersion killing.
You are the hero , but that guy too is the hero , and that women over there... as well as those other thousands of pilots... you are all heros , you have all saved the galaxy !

 

[Pville_Piper]

Well, no. They haven't added any cutscenes.

And when I mention scripted missions I'm talking about more longer, more detailed, multi-stage, once-off missions than ED currently contains. It's obviously they need to have mission templates to choose from (PG missions could never just be completely random). I agree they could do a lot more to improve them, by offering lots more variety in mission activities, more backstory options, longer multi-stage missions etc. But if you play long enough, you're always going to start noticing you're repeating activity X, activity Y with minimal storyline/character differences which would make them interesting.

You are correct about the cut scenes... I never meant to imply they were in this game. And you are correct there is only so many times you can do an activity before it repeats. I think the problem for me is that every time they add something the default answer to what happens tend to end up with some variation of combat. Lacking that, we can always get interdicted...

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If missions were like this in elite , it would suck.

Huh? I just described a mission in elite and you said what?

 

[Andovar]

I don't think FD have cracked procedurally generating actors yet.

No, but I think they're heading that direction. It was mentioned in a recent livestream that the mission giver pics aren't just static images, but they're actually 3d rendered models. So again, they're creating the 'engine' upon which to build later.
Granted the engine skews towards a leather-face look. But hey, give it time.

 

[Privata]

You are correct about the cut scenes... I never meant to imply they were in this game. And you are correct there is only so many times you can do an activity before it repeats. I think the problem for me is that every time they add something the default answer to what happens tend to end up with some variation of combat. Lacking that, we can always get interdicted...

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Huh? I just described a mission in elite and you said what?

By ''this'' I ment WC3
If missions were like in WC3 (pre scripted with voice acting and a plot) it would become boring

 

[MickyG1982]

I find it amazing that we could have immersive missions in 1994 and we can't get anywhere near that in 2016.


Compare how a mission briefing looked in 1994 in wing commander to missions in elite:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vXsHFVfgReM


1. Notice how you can pick your wingmen (yes, the thing we will never get here in missions or as escort for traders, from some to me, unknown reason ).
2. Observe the description of a mission and goals of a mission


Now to how mission actually played:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ifMIHEDxgOU


1. Notice that in 1994 you actually had multiple communication options, ranging from various options or commands for your wingmen to talking to the enemy.
2. Notice how enemy actually talks back to you and so do your wingmen (let's ignore the fact that not only does it talk it also shows up on the screen while at it and it looks damn fine)
3. You can also see that mission has various enemies in it, from capital ships to smaller fighters, multiple waves, jumps, points (and each one feels different from the last, ranging from fights near planet surface, fighting capital fleets, ...)
4. There's energy management as in elite, but the weapons choice is made on one of the screens like on fighter jets, by simply activating or deactivating them (the screen is multi purpose screen, it includes other stuff like power management, communications, ... )
5. You can also see that enemy ships when they are damaged show shields down (front, left, right, back) and how much of which part of the ship is damaged.


At the end, when he asks for docking permission, he actually says it and mother ship replies (as it does in elite now!).


As someone who bought wing commander 3 when it came out and elite dangerous when it came out I got to say I'm quite dissapointed with how missions STILL look or feel in elite in 2016 compared to a 1994 game.

OK, now compare this one to an actual Elite game. As much as I like Wing Commander it is absolutely nothing like any Elite game and has never been comparable.

 

[VR Jay Le Chardon]

Procedurally generated actors aren't need... procedurally generated scripts for the couple of dozen NPC's we deal with are however needed.

Voice synthesis engines do not contain a recording of every single word in the language, they contain predefined sounds for all the phenomes/syllables from which words are made and string them together to make the words. Cutscenes from the mission givers could be built using this concept, so we have a range of predefined movements of eyes hands tilting of head etc, that could be rng'd together to for some sort of choreography, selecting from a list of available movements based on context. For example, a mission giver who is pleased with your success and happy to give you work wont be snarling at you banging his table and waving a hand dismissively at you, so the RNG sequence would know not to string those motions in to the characters animation as they delivered their preamble describing the mission for you to select to accept or decline it.

Similarly a character who is the mission giver from a faction you have massacred 85 of their ships in the last missions you handed in is unlikely to smile shake your hand and pat you on the shoulder on first contact. They might give you that kind or gestures if you donated 1,000,000 "to the cause".

Similarly procedural generation of missions could go hand in hand with the avatars actions - you go and see mission giver, he gives you a greeting generated randomly based on your reputation with their faction and asks you so what can i do for you today. Menu appears, "looking to donate to the cause, got some missions to hand in, looking for work", assuming your hostile he tells you where to go using a script generated out of the library of hostile actions an sentences. Or if you are in the good books of this faction, you'll get something like "well be more specific kid, what sorts of work", new menu - multiple choice "combat, transport, smuggling, assassination, fetching commodoties, salvage, etc" click the boxes, click submit, "hmm lets see, i could give you......" list of half a dozen various missions based on standing, better standing = better rewarding juicier missions.

I think its civilization IV or V that I'm thinking of the scene where you negotiate like this with the figurehead or face of other factions, and the npc's actions reflected your relationship with them.

https://youtu.be/tRnBnIInGGk?t=214

 

[Devari]

WOW! It would be cool if there was a new kind of Wing Commander game in the works... just bigger. Better. Maybe with multiplayer support, co-op or even *gasp* Massively Online? It'd be super cool if you could land on planets too and... EVA...

People would pay an insane amount of cash for...

Oh. Wait.

I am literally one of the biggest Wing Commander fans out there. I own a nearly full set of the CCG cards and have 3D-printed models of the WCIII ships. Despite this I'm not going anywhere near Star Citizen. It's essentially a giant Ponzi scheme that has taken in over a hundred million dollars based on nostalgia for the Wing Commander series but will only deliver a tiny fraction of what was "paid for". It's a real shame that it will never become truly finished and will be in perpetual "development" but I saw a similar thing happen to MechWarrior Online where they milked the nostalgia for the IP as long as they could, eventually delivering a "minimum" set of features that technically fulfilled their "obligations". I have a little more hope for No Man's Sky but given the delays they have been experiencing and the complete lack of beta testing I'm not holding my breath on that one either.