1st, 2nd, 3rd tier npcs

[Armour]

Each NPC, PC, and island has an ID in the database. Create a link table record, and let a random peer "own" the NPC, based on transfer of a server generated token based on the link table's keys. If the owner disconnects or exits the island, relink the NPC to a new owner and generate a new token. If the NPC decides to accompany a peer to another location, generate a token for the relevant peer and unlink the existing owner. If an NPC is about to meet itself, create a new island as necessary to avoid that event.

Of course, with the prevalence and ease of hacking, it would probably be possible to take advantage of this and generate multiple copies of NPCs and use them as drone warriors. FDEV will have to sort out the security of their client and put a stop to the hacking in order to really make use of such a plan, but if they can do that (BIG if), then it's doable and probably doesn't put a lot of extra strain on the infrastructure.

 

[Sparkam]

During the last live stream David Braben said one problem with the concept of Tier 2 NPCs - the kind we are all waiting for - is that players would just kill them off to quickly to make sense as persistent entities.

I hope eventually we are going to see some kind of persistent NPCs, even if they only rarely fly ships themselves and more often can be encountered as mission givers, passengers - once the corresponding gameplay is introduced - or as shop owners and black market contacts via station services - an environment where players can't harm them . This way the probability of being blown up buy players would be reduced and we'd have a realistic chance to meet them multiple times and build up personal reputation with them.

Easy to solve, if someone killed tier 2 npc just spawn another tier 2 nps with different name (his son or friend or whatever) that will be successor of the killed one, and if you will try to contact killed npc then new npc will respond and you may continue to do business with him (depending on your reputation).

Or you can make tier 2 npc like those leaders from powerplay but not so significant, you'll be making business with them through their agents.

 

[Riedquat]

I don't think that's really possible with the current architecture

I have heard this many times regarding persistent NPC's from various players on the forums, but never from a Dev.

I dont think they like to talk about this one.

Before the game was released, I was under the impression that all trading would be carried out by players and NPC ships, I was gutted when I realised that the NPC ships were just props.

 

[Riedquat]

Here is one thought regarding NPC trading off the top of my head.

Rather than having thousands, or millions of individual NPC trader ships.

Instead, do it with trade caravans.

Heavily guarded super freighters that travel to and from systems at certain time intervals that import and export all commodities to and from that particular system, they make bulk trades in single transactions rather than using the thousands of smaller ships.

Like trains, they have a timetable of when they will be importing/exporting per day.

For the sake of lore, you could imagine them as brokers for NPC traders.

Players could try to make a difference in systems by grouping together and attempting to destroy them (although it would take a hell of a lot of firepower to do so), if they are destroyed then the economy reacts to the loss of that particular commodity.

This would have a knock on effect of making trading more interesting and introduce some great group based PVE opportunities.

Hell, even dish out naval missions to protect/destroy them.

so you wouldnt need anywhere near as many of these freighters as you would individual traders.

 

[Hadron-Higgs-Boson]

Yes, it's all so easy to say "come up with a solution" and present none yourself, much safer from criticism too.
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The issue is introducing them in a way that they feel meaningful. Why add something that essential amounts to a tier 3 NPC (cannon fodder) or a tier 1 NPC (always behind the curtain, a picture in an interface)? The idea of Tier 2 NPCs is personal interaction (as opposed to tier 1 group interaction, or tier 3 non consequential interaction) and that is a hard thing to do where anyone can (and would) be killed. The idea of persistence isn't that they just exist in the game for you or me, it is that they exist in the game like you and me. They exist in all modes for all players that happen upon them with all the same vulnerabilities and repercussions as you and me, otherwise they are just going to be a disappointing, highly criticized husk of an addition.
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Now maybe if the AI gets good enough to run away and bring backup and outfit correctly and fight formidably, and the penalties for crime become something that players actually feel, and there are a few more mechanics added to the game (mission types, NPC dialogue options, character creation for PCs and NPCs) the foundation will exist for meaningful tier 2 NPCs, but as the game stands now they wouldn't be differentiated enough to be noticed. The "follow my wake" and pirates that chase you are essentially an embryonic form of tier 2 NPC, but no one cares because while they offer and affect missions, they don't provide meaningful interaction. They are too transient and disposable. So how do you make something non disposable, in a galaxy where everything is?

At this point in time FD are the ones designing and writing the game, not you or I! The DDF talks about the basic principles of tier 2 NPC's and it seems (to me at least) as if tier 2 NPC's or their like is something that people want to see in game. I accept that there are challenges in creating them, it's not simple, but I do not accept some form of them can not be done, only that it has not been done and FD may elect not to do it at all, ever!. Yes, a big problem is catering for allowing players to kill a tier 2 NPC, but allowing it is a design choice, much the same as not allowing it. I think the DDF is a great stretch for a concept but I think a very passable version of tier 2 NPC's could be created and implemented, if FD had the will to do so, so far they have shown no such will - that right now is the bigger issue, if they want to do them they will find ways Hiding behind 'its too hard so we won't bother' is an excuse!

Right now we have two ends of the NPC spectrum, the utterly meaningless canon fodder props that spawn around you as part of the background, because you dropped into some poi, or because you took some mission. And we have the completely invisible non interactive faction figureheads who just serve as a story prop to the metagame of powerplay. I think we can all agree there is a lot of room between those two 'extremes' that could be populated, no one has to stick to the DDF, it's not like much of it has been implemented anywhere else, why on earth should this part of it be different?

 

[Aewarin Jameson]

I guess that could be sorted, as someone else mentioned, only having them appear to a single person. Or PC saves them, giving them fuel for example, mentions they are based in XYZ system and on ABC starport. You are given contact details for them and they appear in the contact list in the station? Just one (probably bad!!) idea I thought about this problem

If they were to overhaul the mission board (not the missions themselves) and present at the board some people they could talk to, that when you complete missions for you gain reputation with them, and over time they offer better missions, that could constitute NPC-T2's.

IMO it would also make it a simple transition for when we can walk around stations - either talk to the mission board (by calling the people on them for missions) or walk up to them.

 

[CMDR Byr Goefin]

Who's on first?

 

[Hadron-Higgs-Boson]

Who's on first?

All I'm trying to find out is what's the guy's name on first base

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

I sort of imagine those Tier 2 NPCs being a bit like Bugsy Malone. (You have to read the following as if spoken with a bit of a Chicago drawl...)

Just imagine: You drop in to a SSS and there's an Anaconda just sitting there. You get a comms message: "Nice of ya to drop by."
You deploy hard-points only for four Vultures to drop in to your instance. If you fire, you're dead meat. So you withdraw your hard-points.
The conversation continues. "Now, you've come to our attention, like. You've a reputation for being a bit a hard hitting lad, but, you see, your now on my patch, and if ya want to continue on that patch, you gonna need to get in line. Here, I have a little job for you. Accept this job and we'll meet again. Decline, or try to run, and, well, you know. Frank and his boys are good at what they do, if you get what I mean..."

And he turns up from time to time, along with other players. And as soon as he gets enough influence, he starts to control that system, and eventually, expands and becomes a Tier 3, but only with your help... And killing him is going to be hard... even with friends. He always has Frank to back him up... and maybe even Frank takes over the family business if that happens, making your life even more hell.

 

[who?]

I have heard this many times regarding persistent NPC's from various players on the forums, but never from a Dev.

I dont think they like to talk about this one.

Before the game was released, I was under the impression that all trading would be carried out by players and NPC ships, I was gutted when I realised that the NPC ships were just props.

Certainly, I'm just trying to interpret this from a technical perspective - I am a developer, including several live multi-user collaboration tools - but I obviously have no additional insight into how Frontier have implemented this.

It seems to me the game is implemented similar to a chat-room model, though obviously instead of just sending textual messages you're sending and receiving coordinates, ship info, the location and types of weapons fire etc. You enter a system and you're in one chatroom, drop into a RES or a signal source or a station and those are other chatrooms. You're only in one chatroom at a time, so only one user-list etc. Ever notice how you can see ships dancing about in supercruise from hundreds of Ls away, but as soon as you drop into normal space they're gone? That's why.

NPCs are 'randomly' spawned in your chatrooms to keep the game interesting, but once all the players leave that chatroom and the NPCs in it exist no more. They have implemented some rules & linkages to make it more interesting. For instance NPCs aren't entirely random, if you're Mostly Harmless you won't see many Elite NPCs. If you accept certain missions, then certain individual NPCs (assassination targets etc.) will spawn in certain instances. And - when following wakes or during interdictions, they can transfer NPCs from one instance to another, to give the impression of it jumping into frame-shift or dropping out of it. Ultimately though, it seems to be destroying that NPC in your instance and - if you "follow" it to the destination instance - creating a clone of the NPC there. Sometimes this can lead to discrepancies - you damage a ship, follow it's wake, and might find it's in pristine condition in the new system.

There's no massive mega-controller which is tracking thousands of NPCs as they move about the galaxy. It's just randomly spawning NPCs, with some rules over where and when.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Who's on first?

...what?

 

[Roybe]

There's no massive mega-controller which is tracking thousands of NPCs as they move about the galaxy. It's just randomly spawning NPCs, with some rules over where and when.

This...is the truth....as well as the rest of the description! Perceived complexity from a very 'simple' code. The galaxy, stars, nebula, etc. is the sim...the rest is all game!

The hand that guides it all is the BGS. It looks at data of how many changes players have created...adjusts small parameters based on that...and the game moves on.

 

[Angelo]

Tier 1: "Players do not interact with these characters directly." Dammit, there goes the chance of me meeting Aisling in person .

 

[cmdr awesome]

It seems that we have two extremes in that existing NPCs are either completely untouchable or disposable, and we need a bit more options to cover that spectrum rather than just one more type. One solution to the concern that T2 NPCs would just be killed is to have two sub-types:

T1 - "Stormtrooper", The cannon fodder we know and love

T2A - "Greebo". Any T1 can be promoted to a T2 by random events, and they can then provide missions and other interactions - but they are often killed as the galaxy is a dangerous place and they fly regular ships. Thankfully there is no shortage of T1s to promote. Killing a T2A may spawn a replacement - e.g. a relative, business parter or rival that might provide some continuity with existing missions.

T2B - "Jabba". After a few interactions with a T2A, they may introduce you to a T2B - military captains, mid-ranking politicians, local crime lords and such like. They can hold strong influence over local factions, but do not control them. They offer more interesting, higher-stakes missions and are hard (not impossible) to kill - they always fly in large, heavily armed wings when they are not safely inside stations or capital ships.

T3 - "Emperor". Leaders of Factions and Powers. Effectively untouchable without serious community effort.

The idea of the T2B's being hard to kill but still killable, together with them having influence over local factions gives organised player groups a more direct and exciting way to impact the control of a system. The T2Bs would also compete with each other, so may spawn missions to locate, track, rob, and assassinate their T2A+B rivals.

 

[W4rSkuLL]

It seems that we have two extremes in that existing NPCs are either completely untouchable or disposable, and we need a bit more options to cover that spectrum rather than just one more type. One solution to the concern that T2 NPCs would just be killed is to have two sub-types:

T1 - "Stormtrooper", The cannon fodder we know and love

T2A - "Greebo". Any T1 can be promoted to a T2 by random events, and they can then provide missions and other interactions - but they are often killed as the galaxy is a dangerous place and they fly regular ships. Thankfully there is no shortage of T1s to promote. Killing a T2A may spawn a replacement - e.g. a relative, business parter or rival that might provide some continuity with existing missions.

T2B - "Jabba". After a few interactions with a T2A, they may introduce you to a T2B - military captains, mid-ranking politicians, local crime lords and such like. They can hold strong influence over local factions, but do not control them. They offer more interesting, higher-stakes missions and are hard (not impossible) to kill - they always fly in large, heavily armed wings when they are not safely inside stations or capital ships.

T3 - "Emperor". Leaders of Factions and Powers. Effectively untouchable without serious community effort.

The idea of the T2B's being hard to kill but still killable, together with them having influence over local factions gives organised player groups a more direct and exciting way to impact the control of a system. The T2Bs would also compete with each other, so may spawn missions to locate, track, rob, and assassinate their T2A+B rivals.

I don´t understand why tier 2 NPCs should be killed of if commanders can interact with them and follow their "evolution". If people can build and develop something and interact with it. People play it, and like it. To see a random tier 1 become a tier 2, and then make it your wingman, copilot or trade partner. I cant see why they would be killed of, well by other commanders I can understand. But they would also become an asset for the commander attached to them, and thus protected fiercely I bet.

 

[Arubeto]

I don´t understand why tier 2 NPCs should be killed of if commanders can interact with them and follow their "evolution". If people can build and develop something and interact with it. People play it, and like it. To see a random tier 1 become a tier 2, and then make it your wingman, copilot or trade partner. I cant see why they would be killed of, well by other commanders I can understand. But they would also become an asset for the commander attached to them, and thus protected fiercely I bet.

Can you imagine the number of complaint threads once players can't only harass other players, but "their" NPCs, too? The number of "GRIEEFINNG!!!" threads would bring this forum to it's limits

 

[W4rSkuLL]

Can you imagine the number of complaint threads once players can't only harass other players, but "their" NPCs, too? The number of "GRIEEFINNG!!!" threads would bring this forum to it's limits

Yeah, hehe. "Why did you kill my tier 2 NPC?" "Because I could" Well, I still hope they come into the game in some form. But the suggestions that some tier 1 could become tier 2 is a good one. I like it. Its like some blue items on wow becomes epic ones. I like randomness.

 

[Arubeto]

Yeah, hehe. "Why did you kill my tier 2 NPC?" "Because I could" Well, I still hope they come into the game in some form. But the suggestions that some tier 1 could become tier 2 is a good one. I like it. Its like some blue items on wow becomes epic ones. I like randomness.

I absolutely agree. Tier 2 NPCs are on top of my "most wanted" features to come for ED! The idea to build up personal stories and relationships with all kinds of different NPCs (scientists, pirates, mercenaries etc.) is really great, IMO. I can just understand the point mentioned by David Braben in the live stream about NPCs being decimated by players way fast being a problem for the implementation of meaningful persistent NPCs very much. Perhaps it would really be an option to limit persistent NPCs to those we meet in stations via menus and contact screens initially, and then later add the possibility to really meet them in their ships, once the NPC AI is high enough to not solely act as cannon fodder

 

[-VR- Max Factor]

I would be happy with NPC's just on the Bulletin Board. You can't kill those, they would be station contacts in your contacts list where you would get exclusive missions from.

The way I would implement it, when you are not allied or friendly with a minor faction you just the bulletin board. One your status gets up to friendly you get an NPC in your contacts that will give you mission direcly related to the status of the faction i.e boom/war/famine/ etc. When you get allied you get more and better missions from another NPC higher up in the organisation. Maybe in the future you can join that minor faction (not sure what FDEV plan here) and get discounts on items and on some specific commodties, dependent on what type of faction they are.

Its things like this that will give the game some depth. I don't want to necessarrily control the minor faction or the BGS, but maybe feel apart of it.

 

[W4rSkuLL]

If you put a face on it, give it a ship to. Tier 2 NPCs could have different color in SC and in ordinary space. Maybe purple. So when you see a purple text or orb. Its a persistent NPC going about. And to see a tier 2 NPC level and getting a better ship, maybe joining you on a mission must be great fun. Though loosing it will also be a sad moment. But that´s Elite. It could be a option to make them rare, so they are an asset for all players. Then they wont be killed of or at least given the best protection so they survive. A commander with 2 wingmen persistent tier 2 NPCs is a force to be recon with. Well, there are endless possibilities here with tier 2 NPCs. And ways to make them come alive.

 

[Eelux Mott]

Tier 1: "Players do not interact with these characters directly." Dammit, there goes the chance of me meeting Aisling in person .

I interacted with what I have always assumed was a tier 1 in my first few days of play. Felicia Winters, piloting a python in lawless space. Does the NPC name-bank also contain the major PP character's names?

Apologies for quality, and rotation, ha!