2.1 Discussion on AI weapon spam "rate of fire" bug

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er... Sorry ;)

-Mark


KUDOS - you are forgiven. ;)

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Like they already have done?

They have done this. Except, I believe, for some mods where other dependencies wouldn't allow them to.


Well how come I (and some others) have still been subjected to "impulse attack" from Elite vipers for example? I assume they must have left some in-game on the Elites.
 
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Thanks for the link but it says in it that they plan to do it in the next update that may come out next week.

it's says they have removed most of the engineers mods from the AI in a quick server side tweak, and will apply "what is hopefully a full fix, for NPC & engineer mods" in the next patch.
 
How already told, it would be nice to get a confirmation that the bug doesn't appear in Solo mode. Otherwise i would wait for the patch aswell.
 
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And/Or, low number of beta testers = low probability of getting the extreme manifestation of the bug. If the pointers were pointing to weapon types that are somewhat close, then it's possible players didn't notice, or chalked it up to "new feature" instead of a bug.

Pretty much this, I think.

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Shotgun Laser confirmed? :p


Plasmabeam?

Actually both sound like very fun weapons, a shortrange laser shotgun and a deadly plasmabeam

But anyway, thanks for explaining how it works, its interesting to know that

It's pretty much the dreaded Plasmatic Pulsar Device from Star Fleet Battles!
 
Much appreciated and please, FD, keep doing this. Explaining how something how something like this happened in the game is this much detail goes a LONG way to easing the annoyance factor of encountering it. Sure, not all of your players are geeks but the space sim genre and "anything Elite" in particular can reasonably be expected to attract quite a few of us, so we're actually quite likely to get it. This level of detail in telling us what happened and how it caused what it did is pretty much unique to FD in the gaming world outside open source games. Please DO maintain that distinction by keeping on telling us things like this when it's appropriate.

Having said that, a heads-up. This particular route to insane NPC weapons may not be the only one. Last night my 'conda was interdicted by a Master-ranked NPC FDL. I was losing the interdiction fight so I submitted, intending to run for it. Because that was my tactic I never actually saw the NPC or the visual effects of his weapons, but I could hear them. Nonetheless, I've no idea what they were. I've been shot at by railguns, cannons, multicannons, every variant of laser, frag cannon plasma accelerators and missiles - I KNOW what those sound like hitting my ship. This one sounded nothing like anything I'd heard before, a descending bass "growl" with each hit, low RoF, but whatever it was it took two rings off 6A-class shields with 5 A-class boosters and 4 pips to SYS in one shot. The SCB kicked in before the second one hit but even so that one completely took the shields down and by the time my FSD charged up and I got out of there I'd taken two more hits and was at 20% hull. I was FA-off and making course changes as radical as possible in the lumbering big snake, randomly employing lateral thrusters, but I didn't see any weapons fire effects going past me so he was a lot more accurate with whatever it was than I've seen from other NPCs of his rank since the update.

ETA: and it couldn't be anything related to the problem described here, I was in a PG and was the only player in the instance besides the NPC, so no handoff occurred.
 
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Much appreciated and please, FD, keep doing this. Explaining how something how something like this happened in the game is this much detail goes a LONG way to easing the annoyance factor of encountering it. Sure, not all of your players are geeks but the space sim genre and "anything Elite" in particular can reasonably be expected to attract quite a few of us, so we're actually quite likely to get it. This level of detail in telling us what happened and how it caused what it did is pretty much unique to FD in the gaming world outside open source games. Please DO maintain that distinction by keeping on telling us things like this when it's appropriate.

Having said that, a heads-up. This particular route to insane NPC weapons may not be the only one. Last night my 'conda was interdicted by a Master-ranked NPC FDL. I was losing the interdiction fight so I submitted, intending to run for it. Because that was my tactic I never actually saw the NPC or the visual effects of his weapons, but I could hear them. Nonetheless, I've no idea what they were. I've been shot at by railguns, cannons, multicannons, every variant of laser, frag cannon plasma accelerators and missiles - I KNOW what those sound like hitting my ship. This one sounded nothing like anything I'd heard before, a descending bass "growl" with each hit, low RoF, but whatever it was it took two rings off 6A-class shields with 5 A-class boosters and 4 pips to SYS in one shot. The SCB kicked in before the second one hit but even so that one completely took the shields down and by the time my FSD charged up and I got out of there I'd taken two more hits and was at 20% hull. I was FA-off and making course changes as radical as possible in the lumbering big snake, randomly employing lateral thrusters, but I didn't see any weapons fire effects going past me so he was a lot more accurate with whatever it was than I've seen from other NPCs of his rank since the update.

ETA: and it couldn't be anything related to the problem described here, I was in a PG and was the only player in the instance besides the NPC, so no handoff occurred.

Actually, the effects for some weapons have been changed, so it might be you didn't recognize it because it's a new sound.
 
Thanks Mark for this update on the situation. I lost 2 ships, spent some time looking on the forums and configured a Cobra Mk III for speed & survivalability & waited for a fix.
 
A little thinking & confirmation of other reports, watching the videos and my own experiences told me it had to be a bug. No company would spring such a monstrous "upgrade" on people. The betas didn't see it. Finally getting some info (through these forums) gave me 2 choices: not play for a couple days or build a ship that had rabbit legs. I did the latter.

Turns out to have been spacedust in one of the intake valves or whatever. Less than 3 days & we get Mark's information. Seems pretty quick action to me.


I also can say I was affected/killed by 2 uberships (separate instances) and I was playing solo (to get my feet wet with the new AI and Engineers stuff). I've stayed in solo til we get a firm confirm on the bug squash.
 
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I also can say I was affected/killed by 2 uberships (separate instances) and I was playing solo (to get my feet wet with the new AI and Engineers stuff). I've stayed in solo til we get a firm confirm on the bug squash.

The dev in charge thinks that dangling pointer aren't uncommon and due to instancing, yet I'm not the only one seeing it in solo. Wish I'm also not the only one being completely discouraged when I see a dev say this isn't uncommon.

Did you mean "is" uncommon? Nevermind.

It sounded to me that the circumstances that led to the identified bug would be fairly uncommon. But remember, fixing one bug does not mean that there are not more out there. If weird stuff is still happening, I'm sure the devs would love to get their hands on more detail. Provide them with videos and session details (mode, location, scenario, missions, etc). That way they can pinpoint anything that is still causing issues.
 
Damn repair it fast. Today I fight with Clipper who had plasma multicanons. Ridiculus as hell. 3 shoots to my FAS and game over. :(

AND 1 MORE THING:
Why when I jump to RES behind me always respawn enemies? It's just stupid, in fact, there is a bug when I enable Supercruise in ring planet sometimes he pulled me out witout reason. And why the hell when I killiing enemies on communitty goal [I am in Zachary federation powerplay] Felicia Winters [federation too] ships attack me. Another bug?
 
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Given the speculation about what might be causing this bug, and what it means for the game - I thought I'd clarify a few things on the technical side :). Sadly it wasn't as simple a change as an un-initialised or out of range value, my head would be a lot less hurty this week if it had been!

So, to try and explain.

...

-Mark

Thanks for sharing, absolutely love this sort of stuff and it really does help to dispel any fud[SIZE=1]*1[/SIZE].

Edit: [B]*1[/B] - Fear, Uncertainty & Doubt and definitely NOT what Urban Dictionary defines it to mean :eek:
 
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Hi Mark

Thank you for taking the time to come here and explain what had gone wrong and how you fixed it. It's great to see developers doing this.
 
"that should fix this!"

I was really clever to leave the game few hour after update release... This bug is just able to destroy CMDR, nicely done. I think i will not play this game for month for sure now. Maybe 3 or 6 month is the less to see a playable game.
 
Given the speculation about what might be causing this bug, and what it means for the game - I thought I'd clarify a few things on the technical side :). Sadly it wasn't as simple a change as an un-initialised or out of range value, my head would be a lot less hurty this week if it had been!

So, to try and explain.
The data for a module in Elite is split up into a set of blocks: things like power consumption, vulnerability to overheating, health, and of particular interest in this case, Weapon data. Weapon data is about 40-50 values controlling everything from the more obvious rate of fire & range, to slightly obscure things like how fast the beam fades after you release the trigger. More or less any combination of values is allowed (you want a laser shotgun? sure, take a pulse laser and set the Rounds Per Shot value to 12). This flow is identical between players and npcs, even stations and skimmers actually.

Prior to 1.6/2.1 the cached pointer each weapon held to its data was a simple affair pointing at a bit of data loaded from resources, but as part of the changes to make items modifiable I had to change this so it could also be a pointer to a block of data constructed from a base item plus a set of modifiers - ideally without the code reading that data caring (or even knowing) where it actually came from and therefore not needing to be rewritten to cope. This all works great in theory, and then in practice, up until a few naughty NPC's got into the mix and decided to make a mess. I'll gloss over a few details here, but the important information is that a specific sequence of events relating to how NPCs transfer authority from one players' machine to another, combined with some performance optimisations and an otherwise minor misunderstanding on my part of one of the slightly obscure networking functions got the weapon into an odd state. The NPC's weapon which should have been a railgun and had all the correct data for a railgun, but the cached pointer to its weapon data was pointing somewhere else. Dangling pointers aren't all that uncommon (and other programmers may know the pains they can cause!) but in this case the slightly surprising thing was that it would always be a pointer to a valid WeaponData - It's correct enough that it'd never have tripped any of the sanity checks or asserts that something was wrong, and yet.. clearly it's not right either!

What did this do exactly? Well in that example the weapon would have thought it was a slugshot: it'd make decisions on ammo, when to fire, how much power to consume and heat to generate as if it were a slugshot. It then tells the game to fire 12 shots but now we're outside the areas that use the cached data, the weapon manager knows its a railgun and dutifully fires 12 railgun shots :p. Depending on which machine this occurred on exactly it would either be as a visual artefact only that does no damage, or (more rarely but entirely possible) the weapon would *actually* fire 12 shots and carve a burning trail of death through the space in front of it. The hilarious part (for people not being aimed at) is that the bug can potentially cause hybrids of almost any two weapons... In my testing I've seen cases of railguns firing like slugshots, cannons firing as fast as multicannons, or my favourite absurd case of a Huge Plasma Accelerator firing every frame because it thought it was a beam laser... Ouch.

Why does this never occur on players? Well AI and players aren't governed by different rules in combat - but one thing AI's do that players never do is transfer authority between machines (it's rather hard to move out of range of yourself after all), which is the trigger at the heart of this bug. Removing modified weapons from NPCs earlier in the week will have reduced the frequency of the problem as it's more-or-less tied to how many modified weapons are in the session, the fix included in the build Zac mentioned coming soon should stamp it the rest of the way out. With the usual caveat of programmers: I fixed the problem I found, can't promise it's the last one!


Much as I love the insane weapons, and part of me likes having the proof that actually the system is hugely flexible... lets add them when we mean to next time! er... Sorry ;)

-Mark
T
A fantastic explanation and thank you for taking the time to explain
 
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