2.1 Discussion on AI weapon spam "rate of fire" bug

[Allin]

Please - show some modicum of respect.

As soon as the product provider will show "modicum of respect" when talking about the reasons for delay, how they want to make things perfect and make sure there are no bugs (and I'm not talking about hidden things). As soon as they will have more to say about removal of game mechanic (Bi-Weave shields) with something else than "we are looking into it". All that while providing community with PAID "beta" that was really an exclusive preview. If they would use the same build, we would see the same errors. AI worked fine in beta. No patch notes indicated anything changed with that part and here we are, having another game breaking bug.

Respect is mutual and earned, and as for now, for the last three years they were receiving a lot of patience - and despite the promise, we still have ANOTHER major release with a MAJOR GAME BREAKING BUG present when live.

She chose not to comment on whether it was a bug

Ok, so, as you are saying all people that "read between the lines" spill baseless comments - how do YOU know what she meant. You live together? You talk privately?

You assume as much as anyone else, but since you are riding on the shiny, white horse of a defender - this somehow makes you more right even if you have exactly the same data as everyone else.

Damn hypocrite.

 

[ROSS-128]

Fortunately for me, the only time I encountered this it was on a friendly police ship. I followed him around and stole his bounties while he dispensed hot plasma justice. This definitely needs to be fixed ASAP though.

I've also seen something else that might be related: a rare few NPCs seem to be able to rapid-fire SCBs without consequences. This isn't quite so devastating as a rapid-fire PA since it doesn't kill you outright, but it regenerates their shields so fast that you either have to run or hope that your ship is big enough to break their shield with a single ram. Or that a cop with a bugged railgun/PA comes along to help you out, those counter the SCB spam nicely.

I think it might be the same bug or a closely related bug, because it has some traits in common: the AI is rapid-firing a module that is supposed to have a small magazine and high heat generation.

 

[Goose4291]

Ok, so, as you are saying all people that "read between the lines" spill baseless comments - how do YOU know what she meant. You live together? You talk privately?

You assume as much as anyone else, but since you are riding on the shiny, white horse of a defender - this somehow makes you more right even if you have exactly the same data as everyone else.

Damn hypocrite.

Shipmate, take a step back and have a look at what you've just written. I agree with you (for the most part) but there's no need for personal attacks because someone has a differing opinion over this.

 

[Kubicide]

I had this bug and many others. Which is why I have stopped playing.

Probably a good call.

Not sure why many are acting surprised by "cheating" AI. It's not new. The game has always been coded to give AI greater ship/weapon/physics performance than players - that's how they are made "dangerous". If anyone doubts this look back into the forum archives.

The AI have always been able to jump farther, go faster, insta-spawn, insta-heal, insta-scan, insta-wake, ignore silent running, ignore chaff, ignore ammo limits, etc, among other things. (One Robigo run with a stack of missions will clearly illustrate most of these cheats lol!) And these AI variables get tweaked only when players complain; they are not accidents or coding errors. So if anything, Engineers and this supposed 'bug' with the PA could simply be exposing more of the way the AI is designed. It may not be a bug that everyone is assuming but simply an unexpected outcome with the new (crafted) variables. We don't know the facts here; only FDev does. The developers Twitter comment certainly suggests this is not a bug. That person - out of anyone - should have been fully aware of what was happening in the video, and would have easily seen and proclaimed any bug or unintentional behavior if one had been present. But the response was essentially "working as intended".

 

[ROSS-128]

Probably a good call.

Not sure why many are acting surprised by "cheating" AI. It's not new. The game has always been coded to give AI greater ship/weapon/physics performance than players - that's how they are made "dangerous". If anyone doubts this look back into the forum archives.

The AI have always been able to jump farther, go faster, insta-spawn, insta-heal, insta-scan, insta-wake, ignore silent running, ignore chaff, ignore ammo limits, etc, among other things. (One Robigo run with a stack of missions will clearly illustrate most of these cheats lol!) And these AI variables get tweaked only when players complain; they are not accidents or coding errors. So if anything, Engineers and this supposed 'bug' with the PA could simply be exposing more of the way the AI is designed. It may not be a bug that everyone is assuming but simply an unexpected outcome with the new (crafted) variables. We don't know the facts here; only FDev does. The developers Twitter comment certainly suggests this is not a bug. That person - out of anyone - should have been fully aware of what was happening in the video, and would have easily seen and proclaimed any bug or unintentional behavior if one had been present. But the response was essentially "working as intended".

I highly doubt that this is working as intended, just because of how extreme the outcome is. This is so far off the power curve that you'd need an Advanced Discovery Scanner to see it from there.

If, on the extremely slim chance, this *is* something that can be legit obtained from weapon modding, then I'd really like to know which Engineer you need to butter up to get one. I'll take four of the rapid-fire no-heat railguns, please. Super size the ammo.

 

[bkrownd]

But the response was essentially "working as intended".

Yeah, that seems to be the obvious conclusion. It would not be a surprise if they decided to run a "shock and awe" campaign to either dull criticism of dealing with the new AI, or to push people towards taking the engineers route to keep up.

When my stuff at work "fails" like this I get called in the middle of the night to help fix it, and my work only effects a few people instead of thousands of customers. Yet, FD seems to be quietly on vacation during the carnage. "nothing to see here, folks..."

 

[LKx]

Probably a good call.

Not sure why many are acting surprised by "cheating" AI. It's not new. The game has always been coded to give AI greater ship/weapon/physics performance than players - that's how they are made "dangerous". If anyone doubts this look back into the forum archives.

The AI have always been able to jump farther, go faster, insta-spawn, insta-heal, insta-scan, insta-wake, ignore silent running, ignore chaff, ignore ammo limits, etc, among other things. (One Robigo run with a stack of missions will clearly illustrate most of these cheats lol!) And these AI variables get tweaked only when players complain; they are not accidents or coding errors. So if anything, Engineers and this supposed 'bug' with the PA could simply be exposing more of the way the AI is designed. It may not be a bug that everyone is assuming but simply an unexpected outcome with the new (crafted) variables. We don't know the facts here; only FDev does. The developers Twitter comment certainly suggests this is not a bug. That person - out of anyone - should have been fully aware of what was happening in the video, and would have easily seen and proclaimed any bug or unintentional behavior if one had been present. But the response was essentially "working as intended".

One thing is the AI getting an edge, which is of course necessary, another thing is this ray of death, which brings really nothing to the "difficulty", but only a "don't get hit" design (if it were by design, but it's so overpowered than i doubt it), which is more an arena thing rather than "general" elite's gameplay.

 

[Ian Skippy]

Yeah, that seems to be the obvious conclusion. It would not be a surprise if they decided to run a "shock and awe" campaign to either dull criticism of dealing with the new AI, or to push people towards taking the engineers route to keep up.

When my stuff at work "fails" like this I get called in the middle of the night to help fix it, and my work only effects a few people instead of thousands of customers. Yet, FD seems to be quietly on vacation during the carnage. "nothing to see here, folks..."

Here's the deal: you presumably have to keep all clients happy. FD has no such responsibility or even the theoretical option. When you make a game for over 1 million customers, any changes to AI will inevitably      some people off. They decided to up the challenge a bit (finally!), so inevitably the weakest of the playerbase will be unhappy. They are not idiots, anyone could see this coming. So from their perspective if their telemetry is working out according to their plans their literally is 'nothing to see here', and the update succeeded.

 

[Scoopy Doopy]

SJA pointed out errors player made. If weaponry wasn't OP, he would have died, just slower.

To be fair, it was an inappropriate tweet. She said she saw the video several times and that the guy had only one pip to shields! This is a like bit a Toyota Yaris being flattened by an articulated lorry driven by a drunk loon and then saying the Toyota had a bald tire!

It all must be terribly frustrating for the guys and gals at FD so I don't particularly blame them.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

All we have to go on is SJA saying that she plans to tone down the middle ranks a bit and tone up the very top NPC ranks. Note that SJA only codes the combat AI behaviour, she doesn't set the ship load outs nor the distribution of ships that are generated for any given scenario.

IMO this (modulo the ROF bug) is where any problem in 2.1 lies, and I'm sure FD are collecting stats about the ships involved in each encounter and whether this resulted in Cmdr death, and will tweak accordingly.

My criticism of the Beta process (having played this and every other ED beta) is that the 'regular play' mode was too short, only about a week, before going into Mayhem mode, where everyone just got the best guns going in return for fish and a lot of people just PvPed the biowaste out of each other, so there wasn't much time testing regular ships vs regular NPC power distribution.

I did I didn't upgrade any weapons at all and for the most part flew around trying to get interdicted with not much success. I did try a Vulture, a Fas and and FDL, all without mods in a res site or two and found the AI much tougher but beatable if you picked your targets. I do not believe what we have now in live is what it was supposed to be.

 

[Urbanski101]

Was this bug active during beta testing?

If so was it reported in the beta test bug report?

That is quite clearly a bug and a big one....no way is that working as intended.....no capacitor / distributor could handle that volume of energy and heat and we know the AI cheat with ammo, heat etc but that is just not in the realms of reality (ED reality) given what's been before, no matter how much the weapon / ship has been 'engineered'.

This is one reason why I'm steering clear of ED for a few weeks whilst they sort out 2.1

 

[Mengy]

It's clearly a bug ... Frontier have been alerted to it .. and ?

What are you hoping to achieve by this thread ?

This thread is a place on the forums to discuss the issue, coupled with player awareness and visibility on the bug itself. The silence on the matter by FDev has resulted in a lot of commanders not even being aware of it and blaming their bad fortunes on the new combat AI instead. I'm hoping to work towards separating the new improved AI discussions away from the topic of this bug, because they really are two separate issues and the last thing we all want to see is the AI dumbed down by FDev instead of this bug being fixed.

I think you can agree with that goal, right?

 

[n4p0l3on]

Fortunately for me, the only time I encountered this it was on a friendly police ship. I followed him around and stole his bounties while he dispensed hot plasma justice. This definitely needs to be fixed ASAP though.

I've also seen something else that might be related: a rare few NPCs seem to be able to rapid-fire SCBs without consequences. This isn't quite so devastating as a rapid-fire PA since it doesn't kill you outright, but it regenerates their shields so fast that you either have to run or hope that your ship is big enough to break their shield with a single ram. Or that a cop with a bugged railgun/PA comes along to help you out, those counter the SCB spam nicely.

I think it might be the same bug or a closely related bug, because it has some traits in common: the AI is rapid-firing a module that is supposed to have a small magazine and high heat generation.

nah that's interesting, I met at least 2 wanted elite big ships that possibly did what you described, constant stream of SCBs that could withstand barrage of shots for like a minute or so, ultimately they got defeated but I didn't think it was a bug until I read your post.

 

[avow555]

As irritating as these bugs are, the plasma spamming got me rofling. I noticed it too but I thought it was just a multicanon with special ammo from the engineers. Only when I checked the ship's weapons did I notice it didn't have multicanons. That was the moment when it turned into a "brown-trousers moment". Though seeing it again in this video was realy amusing.

I'll just go back to trading for a bit or get the right stuff for the engineers until they fix this. That is, if I don't get interdicted by those "cheating" AI's because of a 1600cr bounty: "gimme that large prize" (or something). Seriously, its just 1600cr! Saterday I got some materials (4 tons/units) from a mission, all in all worth about 20.000 credits. I got AI's interdicting me for having a "large haul". Seriously...?

Every time I pick up mission cargo rewards I get swamped with interdictions particulary FAS.
They ALWAYS recharge their shields, ALWAYS manage to one shot my shields and ALWAYS shoot out my cargo hatch, every single time. Multiple interdictions anyone, you bet...

Did we really wait all this time for this abomination of a bug fest.

 

[Mengy]

I've also seen something else that might be related: a rare few NPCs seem to be able to rapid-fire SCBs without consequences. This isn't quite so devastating as a rapid-fire PA since it doesn't kill you outright, but it regenerates their shields so fast that you either have to run or hope that your ship is big enough to break their shield with a single ram. Or that a cop with a bugged railgun/PA comes along to help you out, those counter the SCB spam nicely.

I think it might be the same bug or a closely related bug, because it has some traits in common: the AI is rapid-firing a module that is supposed to have a small magazine and high heat generation.

There seem to be a lot of reports in 2.1 of AI ships whose shields absolutely will not take damage no matter what, I wonder if this bug is affecting SCB's as well, allowing them to rapid fire with no ill effects? Of course, Sarah keeps insisting that the AI ships follow ammo counts just like players do, so if that's the case then you would think that they would run out of SCB's very quickly if they were constantly spamming them...

 

[shadragon]

Can you please tell me what is the point of pointing out player error when he gets killed by a weapon bug? Other than to have a laugh? Do you see the point?

She MISSED or INTENTIONALLY AVOIDED the cause of player death. Both cases being either silly or insulting considering who she is and how long we waited to get HER back on the project, and how much love she had for her previous work.

You seem to be blind to the case of "whoooosh" she made with that comment to a level I never experienced.

On top of that, people know that it is most likely not her coding error - but one that wrecks HER JOB RESULT. At least she could seem bothered. Nobody saying it is her fault, so you can safely stop defending her and turn all other Elite players into some childish tantrum throwing monsters - when you yourself clearly miss the main issue here and you are attacking anyone that felt her comment was unnecessary and odd at best.

And on top of that you don't seem to remember she's not a random youtuber. She's someone that get's paid from our money. Do you know what happens to employees that openly ridicule or dismiss customer issues publicly (even if that is their private tweet), when they are one of the main the faces of the company?

And you know what else she ignored on the "Multi PA" video? If NPCs don't cheat with capacitor - how he was able to shoot so many times? Also didn't bothered her. If something makes me look like I said something disproved by a video - I would care.

You used 1477 characters to post your displeasure. She had 140 for her tweet. Don't expect shakespearian levels of discourse on Twitter. Also, that's her PERSONAL Twitter account, not an FDev sponsored one. Assuming SJA had seen every single video, bug report, forum post and social media feed for one specific issue during a UK Bank holiday weekend before responding to a user's issue is just dumb. I'm sure you don't ask people if they want fries with that on your days off.

Knee jerk posts like this are one of the main reasons why the devs have gone quiet lately. It's typically followed by another chest pounding post complaining the devs are unresponsive. Want to know the real reason for the silence; look in a mirror.

 

[Kubicide]

I highly doubt that this is working as intended, just because of how extreme the outcome is. This is so far off the power curve that you'd need an Advanced Discovery Scanner to see it from there.

If, on the extremely slim chance, this *is* something that can be legit obtained from weapon modding, then I'd really like to know which Engineer you need to butter up to get one. I'll take four of the rapid-fire no-heat railguns, please. Super size the ammo.

If you find a source for these magical rays-of-death please share the location - but only with me! I'll take as many as they have in stock!

Have to say I certainly assumed this was a bug (as the beta 'test' was simple a preview) until the dev's Twitter comment was made. That was disturbing since one would expect that particular person to know what is working vs. what is broken. So the concern here is: 1. it's either "working as intended", or 2. a key FDev developer cannot identify a bug as obvious as this. Which would you prefer is correct?

 

[Kalpa]

Here is a video showing the difference with pips (in v2.0)

Spoiler

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrSXvCEergY

Note: I haven't got the slightest clue how shields work in Elite, but: I'll go ahead and assume shields regenerate when under fire. If they don't, you can disregard everything that follows.

The test in video is very bad for testing shield strength. It tests mostly shield recharge. If the test would be conducted with a weapon with even less dps (if there's one, I don't know) you might get 4PIP shields to show up as being *gasp* infinitely strong, when they'd recharge faster than the test weapon could deal damage.

Correct way to test shield strength would be to find a weapon with great burst damage, and measure how many shots/hits/damage bursts a shield with 0/1/2/3/4 PIPs can take within a very short time. That would minimize the effect of shield recharge, giving better indication on whether PIPs have effect on shield strength or not.

 

[thorn-]

By all means, explain to me what part of the game is playable and I'll go play it.

Dude, take a breath. Seriously.

(Taken one? Ok, good.)

Now.

Clearly, the rapid-fire PA is a bug and is affecting combat in a very unfair way. There's so much video evidence of this, that I believe it will be addressed in a patch soon - and I'm the last guy that normally takes a "it will be ok, trust DEV" approach to things.

However, it seems to me after seeing so many of your own posts - that this is not the bug that is "killing" your game play. You appear to be having completely different problems, so let's not connect Problem A and Problem B and declare the game is .

I can tell you that for me, the game is completely playable. I have played 6-10 hours since 2.1 launched, made 10 Million + credits, all in combat. Bounty hunting, assassinations, killing stuff at bases. I'm currently flying around with a 40K bounty on my head. My pilot ranking has increased 5% towards Dangerous. I haven't died once, and the lowest my hull has ever gotten was around 50%.

So the game is playable, and still very profitable.

How does this help you? At the very least, to tell you that the game is still playable and profit can be made.

What should you be doing differently? I have no idea. I don't know what your skills are, your strengths, weaknesses, habits, or loadout. But clearly, SOMETHING about the things you do (or don't do) should be adjusted, and it might have a positive effect on your state in life.

I'll give one generic example: Are you getting interdicted constantly? Are you also pledged to a power? LEAVE THE POWER, and you'll see interdictions drop by 50-80%.
Another generic example: Are pirate constantly hassling you? Are they killing you before you can escape? Did you try DROPPING CARGO? They'll often stop attacking you and start going after the cargo - then you can escape.

Again, I don't know what you're specifically doing or not doing. Am I just saying "get good?" Yes, perhaps.... and also no, not in a dismissive, arrogant way. Change what you're doing until you get a better result. That's how your game improves... that's how it was in 1.0, 1.6, 2.0, and now 2.1. That part of the game has never changed.

 

[scbfromnc]

Thanks to Mengy for pulling together the evidence for this bug. Some of the replies have gotten off topic, but I guess that's to be expected when folks get emotional about losing their ship. Anyway, this should help FD identify the problem and, hopefully, put together an effective fix quickly.

 

[frostypaw]

As soon as the product provider will show "modicum of respect" when talking about the reasons for delay, how they want to make things perfect and make sure there are no bugs (and I'm not talking about hidden things). As soon as they will have more to say about removal of game mechanic (Bi-Weave shields) with something else than "we are looking into it". All that while providing community with PAID "beta" that was really an exclusive preview. If they would use the same build, we would see the same errors. AI worked fine in beta. No patch notes indicated anything changed with that part and here we are, having another game breaking bug.

Respect is mutual and earned, and as for now, for the last three years they were receiving a lot of patience - and despite the promise, we still have ANOTHER major release with a MAJOR GAME BREAKING BUG present when live.

Ok, so, as you are saying all people that "read between the lines" spill baseless comments - how do YOU know what she meant. You live together? You talk privately?

You assume as much as anyone else, but since you are riding on the shiny, white horse of a defender - this somehow makes you more right even if you have exactly the same data as everyone else.

Damn hypocrite.

You my friend need to go have a cup of tea.

The point is I don't know exactly what she meant - so I'm not going to flip the holy bejesus out on the forums as if that's going to achieve anything other than people ignoring me. Your actual useful input is lost beneath the indignant screams. I was trying to help you avoid that - but feel free to carry on and attack me too, gives clarity.