Engineering 16 ships takes a long time but it's worth it in the end.I'm having loads of fun .
Hang in there -))
Hang in there -))
2.1 holding the game back?
- Thread starter CmdMarty
- Start date
I'm pretty sure Sandro has confirmed a few times that Engineers mods were not intended as sidegrades, but as straight upgrades. I quite enjoyed engineering ships too, I like extra choices, but I particularly like dilemmas, and I do wish there were more severe downsides, particularly to weapons & shields.
I think the AI change would have been more positively received it it hadn't been such a big change in one step. That it was rushed through beta & so bugged on release that it made the news didn't help either.
I agree that open is a no go for me as well cause of engineers before 2.1 I was aways in open rarely ever now.
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Yes side/up grades with equal negative effects to balance it out instead of all positive effects!
verminstar
Banned
Imo the slot machine logic of rngeers only really holds back open play as it's still very possible to ignore them entirely if one is content with ones own company in solo or plays with a better class of folk in pg. That's two big play choices where it's not needed to indulge such ludicrously dumb and illogical mechanics.
Without rngeers, open is effectively off limits ergo it's actually makes things worse in the long term.
It's a gambling addiction and I don't gamble...just don't understand the logic behind them ergo ignore them entirely. They don't offer me anything that can justify spending time doing things I simply don't want to do, and the game said play your own way...so that's exactly what I do. Doesn't really get any more complicated than that ^
Without rngeers, open is effectively off limits ergo it's actually makes things worse in the long term.
It's a gambling addiction and I don't gamble...just don't understand the logic behind them ergo ignore them entirely. They don't offer me anything that can justify spending time doing things I simply don't want to do, and the game said play your own way...so that's exactly what I do. Doesn't really get any more complicated than that ^
What about this as a simple(ish) fix to the balance issues, Have suggested it before and it fell on deaf ears....
Take the current A class standard un-modded modules/weapons/fsd's etc and make those C class and add new A class modules/weapons/fsd's etc witch have is 90-95% the power of a lvl 5 modded part with a good but not great "roll", Thus helping balance the vast disparity between those who do/don't engineer while still maintaining a clear but small advantage,
Also make the weapon effects and shield booster resistances etc buy-able on default load out screen.
Ps. I have fully modded 2 ships to LVL 5 a conda and a vette working on a Cutter atm and I still think engineer's needs to be "fixed" (I'd like to see it removed but that wont ever happen without a change of management).
/Thoughts?
Take the current A class standard un-modded modules/weapons/fsd's etc and make those C class and add new A class modules/weapons/fsd's etc witch have is 90-95% the power of a lvl 5 modded part with a good but not great "roll", Thus helping balance the vast disparity between those who do/don't engineer while still maintaining a clear but small advantage,
Also make the weapon effects and shield booster resistances etc buy-able on default load out screen.
Ps. I have fully modded 2 ships to LVL 5 a conda and a vette working on a Cutter atm and I still think engineer's needs to be "fixed" (I'd like to see it removed but that wont ever happen without a change of management).
/Thoughts?
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Fairy tales.
Panticus
Banned
Of course.
By any simple maths estimate, Engineers threw well over a million combinations into this game - of course it can no longer be balanced.
It was a crappy decision, and one in a long line of poor game decisions.
The root cause being that the boss, DB, never wanted a game, he wanted a vanity project Galaxy to fly though.
What?:O He pretty much hit nail on the head regarding RNGineers
Keep that head buried in that sand [up] you clearly cant see the damage its done to the whole game..
Before 2.1, ED's Open-world PvP had accessibility, because all you needed was an A-rated ship, variety, because you could change your ship and/or loadout and/or tactics on a daily basis, and balance because the work Frontier put into the weapon set was outstanding.
It wasn't perfect, of course, but it was outstanding.
All the disastrous differences between what I set out above and what we have now are as obvious as they are unpleasant.
Post 2.1, ED's Open-world PvP is inherently inaccessible, limiting and imbalanced.
It wasn't perfect, of course, but it was outstanding.
All the disastrous differences between what I set out above and what we have now are as obvious as they are unpleasant.
Post 2.1, ED's Open-world PvP is inherently inaccessible, limiting and imbalanced.
Since PvP isn't the (only) core of the game, who gives a damn?
Engineers gave variation to so many play styles that an "unbalanced" PvP experience isn't enough for a reason to revert them.
Engineers gave variation to so many play styles that an "unbalanced" PvP experience isn't enough for a reason to revert them.
Agree with the OP on this.
I was a person who never tried solo at all until some point and I thought it was actually a different start with a new character. I was scared madly of getting interdicted for giggles when I was returning to bubble before I could land my months of exploration trip data a while ago, data so large that it carried me from Aimless to nearly Pioneer when I delivered it. I refused to acknowledge anything else than Open up until I decided to get my career started in combat and started experiencing the gap between Engineered ships and normals first hand. I've seen some CMDRs say you don't get penaltized if you choose to ignore engineers or don't play around with it, but I don't think thats really the case.
Here is a little example I experienced that might be somewhat a proof to that claim.
People who aim to attack people in a PvP interraction would surely like to maximize their chance of success by tweaking the most edge on their vessel as possible, but I think the gap between normal and engineered is a bit too big to be covered up by other means or that can be simply ignored at a little cost. I can only imagine what not an all A rated normal fighter, but a trade ship could actually do against such odds. This is how I decided to avoid Open for not always but a larger percentage of my playtime now since I see theres not really a point of risking getting interdicted and trying to hold your ground like that against such tweaked ship. And if thats the case all option I'm left with is just trying to avoid every hostile interaction with a player like Im some sort of a gazelle in a savannah until I start tweaking my own ship to reach the same fight-able level. In before people come and lynch me with git-gud and bring tons of advices in that situation I could do, sure I might not be the best pilot out there at all, but I don't think the difference in between was solely my lack of skill or could be covered with a better skillset easily. But the issue is not only the balance between these two players.
Real issue is, I've played a lot of games from their day-1 and saw them change after years into the future. Nearly all of them started off hard where players were generally underdogs, but ended up fleshing the players out from NPCs and the rest of the world so much that players turned into demigods, which resulted in playerbase who were always asking for more powerups actually quickly getting bored and dropping off from the game. I see the forums are already asking for more buffs. A popular example that people can relate could be WoW for example, where the current version with insane amounts of tweaks that could be done, and allowing players to shoot lazers out of their eyes to stomp battalions of mobs with pressing 1 and 2 repeatedly, has dropped from 10m players to below 2m (they stopped announcing how many players are there), where there are private servers out there hosting the very simplistic classic version of the game with more than 1,5m active players, where it is nearly even impossible for most classes to take on 2 NPCs as players and NPCs and everyone is roughly at the same level which causes a nice connection and immersion. I can tell the exact same story for a lot of other games too.
Just giving my thoughts of the situation, I don't mind being slightly forced out of Open to Solo for now, or accepting the dominant supremacy of a guy who spent a lot of grind to tweak his ship so he is absolutely better than me unless I do the same. I still like this game a lot. But I fear engineering additions might be making the players flesh out way too much over the top of rest of the normal ships and the NPC ships that will break the immersion after a while. This will limit all kinds of variety out there. I've seen this happen way too many times. Just I would hate to see that happen to Elite Dangerous too.[cool]
I was a person who never tried solo at all until some point and I thought it was actually a different start with a new character. I was scared madly of getting interdicted for giggles when I was returning to bubble before I could land my months of exploration trip data a while ago, data so large that it carried me from Aimless to nearly Pioneer when I delivered it. I refused to acknowledge anything else than Open up until I decided to get my career started in combat and started experiencing the gap between Engineered ships and normals first hand. I've seen some CMDRs say you don't get penaltized if you choose to ignore engineers or don't play around with it, but I don't think thats really the case.
Here is a little example I experienced that might be somewhat a proof to that claim.
I was a Novice rank, flying an all A fitted small fighter when I got interdicted for no reason by a high rank CMDR with the same ship. Immediately there was ramming and we went into a dogfight which to everyones suprise, my clever use of where to place my speed-line inside that blue zone and a tiny use of FA-off to cause a little drift resulted in my opponent missing me with an inch off his screen while I was landing volleys after volleys from my fixed beams and pulses on his tail while we were spinning around. It was thrilling and felt dangerous, we both had low shields due ramming I think but then seeing the loop in the situation, the guy boosted away for a joust as we readied our lances in anticipation but like 1,5 seconds after he started shooting, which was the first time he shot me, with his blue laser kind of things that filled my whole screen with lightning like he was a huge space Palpatine, this I assume a weapon mod that I don't even know what it is called, my computer yelled "TRUSTERS OFFLINE" and I came to a full stop and stood there for 15 seconds while the guy kept shooting me. Then I gained control of my ship but I was around 30% hull or something with a near destroyed canopy and modules were all damaged while the guy was recovered from my shots and the first ramming event, back to full shields, 95% or something hull.
People who aim to attack people in a PvP interraction would surely like to maximize their chance of success by tweaking the most edge on their vessel as possible, but I think the gap between normal and engineered is a bit too big to be covered up by other means or that can be simply ignored at a little cost. I can only imagine what not an all A rated normal fighter, but a trade ship could actually do against such odds. This is how I decided to avoid Open for not always but a larger percentage of my playtime now since I see theres not really a point of risking getting interdicted and trying to hold your ground like that against such tweaked ship. And if thats the case all option I'm left with is just trying to avoid every hostile interaction with a player like Im some sort of a gazelle in a savannah until I start tweaking my own ship to reach the same fight-able level. In before people come and lynch me with git-gud and bring tons of advices in that situation I could do, sure I might not be the best pilot out there at all, but I don't think the difference in between was solely my lack of skill or could be covered with a better skillset easily. But the issue is not only the balance between these two players.
Real issue is, I've played a lot of games from their day-1 and saw them change after years into the future. Nearly all of them started off hard where players were generally underdogs, but ended up fleshing the players out from NPCs and the rest of the world so much that players turned into demigods, which resulted in playerbase who were always asking for more powerups actually quickly getting bored and dropping off from the game. I see the forums are already asking for more buffs. A popular example that people can relate could be WoW for example, where the current version with insane amounts of tweaks that could be done, and allowing players to shoot lazers out of their eyes to stomp battalions of mobs with pressing 1 and 2 repeatedly, has dropped from 10m players to below 2m (they stopped announcing how many players are there), where there are private servers out there hosting the very simplistic classic version of the game with more than 1,5m active players, where it is nearly even impossible for most classes to take on 2 NPCs as players and NPCs and everyone is roughly at the same level which causes a nice connection and immersion. I can tell the exact same story for a lot of other games too.
Just giving my thoughts of the situation, I don't mind being slightly forced out of Open to Solo for now, or accepting the dominant supremacy of a guy who spent a lot of grind to tweak his ship so he is absolutely better than me unless I do the same. I still like this game a lot. But I fear engineering additions might be making the players flesh out way too much over the top of rest of the normal ships and the NPC ships that will break the immersion after a while. This will limit all kinds of variety out there. I've seen this happen way too many times. Just I would hate to see that happen to Elite Dangerous too.[cool]
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Blackcompany
Banned
It's time to kill RNGINEERS.
Engineering ships should be a Slider. Want more shields or damage? Fin. You also get more weight and/or power consumption.
If everything were a trade-off, nothing would be OP. All changes would exist inside known parameters and allow for real Balance.
This, though...This has become a joke. Just acknowledge that RNGineers were a mistake. Roll them back. Compensate players with skins, or ship discounts. Free Slider adjustment (no paying to Engineer). Something.
This HAS to go.
RNGineers acts as a barrier between Open and the casual player.
If it was FD's intention to make Open the preserve of the seasoned PvP'er, and those interested in becoming seasoned PvP'ers, then bravo; mission accomplished.
If FD wanted Open to become /the/ go-to mode of choice for all ED players then RNGineers was a massive own goal.
I try to imagine that the game designers at FD aren't as misguided as I often make them out to be, so within the remit of this newly adopted conciliatory nature of mine I have to surmise that their intention was the former rather than the latter. For all the sense that makes.
If it was FD's intention to make Open the preserve of the seasoned PvP'er, and those interested in becoming seasoned PvP'ers, then bravo; mission accomplished.
If FD wanted Open to become /the/ go-to mode of choice for all ED players then RNGineers was a massive own goal.
I try to imagine that the game designers at FD aren't as misguided as I often make them out to be, so within the remit of this newly adopted conciliatory nature of mine I have to surmise that their intention was the former rather than the latter. For all the sense that makes.
+1 for that one....
In my case, I'm just heartily bored with the toxic attitudes of competitive multiplayer gaming in general. I like the social side, prefer coop play, but game developers (including FDev) are determined to just keep piling on the adversarial nonsense that's prevalent in today's gaming market, often to the detriment of even a decent single player or coop multiplayer campaign.
Maybe I'm just old and intolerant
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Blackcompany
Banned
+1 for that one....
In my case, I'm just heartily bored with the toxic state of competitive multiplayer gaming in general. I like the social side, prefer coop play, but game developers (including FDev) are determined to just keep piling on the adversarial nonsense that's prevalent in today's gaming market, often to the detriment of even a decent single player or coop multiplayer campaign.
Maybe I'm just old and intolerant
Could not agree more. So sick of gaming feeding a culture so toxic, that people are made fun of and looked down on for sharing to get along with others. To see a sim with as much potential as Elite in any way encourage the disgusting Survival Game PVP crowd utterly disgusted me.
I think you said that very well, and since I agree with you, I give you +1. Sleutelbos touched on the last paragraph also and the wailing of the community did help to damage the balance.
The balance, of course, was way way off at the beginning because we were hit with NPCs carrying ridiculous engineered weapons, and we have never really recovered from those initial first impressions, unfortunately. FD let a genie out of the bottle, and appears not to understand it well enough to put it back !
I choose to ignore engineers mostly, but I have reluctantly engineered my ships through Felicity, simply because the QOL is improved in the game when your ship can jump further. I suspect we are all compelled to go that route in the end.
As a predominantly PvE player, I would have prefered if the engineers where more side grades, with some very minor upgrades.
I don't mind the gameplay surrounding them, I don't mind the RNG, it's just that the upgrades are far too powerful as they are that it if you are to survive in open, it makes the engineers unavoidable.
I think we could keep the engineers, they just need to massively reduce the amount of upgrade they all give.
I don't mind the gameplay surrounding them, I don't mind the RNG, it's just that the upgrades are far too powerful as they are that it if you are to survive in open, it makes the engineers unavoidable.
I think we could keep the engineers, they just need to massively reduce the amount of upgrade they all give.
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+1 for that one....
In my case, I'm just heartily bored with the toxic attitudes of competitive multiplayer gaming in general. I like the social side, prefer coop play, but game developers (including FDev) are determined to just keep piling on the adversarial nonsense that's prevalent in today's gaming market, often to the detriment of even a decent single player or coop multiplayer campaign.
Maybe I'm just old and intolerant
Hehe oh well, as I'm slowly getting close to my thirties, I also feel the same way, I'm all fit for having some nice interractions and chilling at this point
And I must say, the community here in E: D is mostly mature compared to A LOT of games out there which makes me quiet enjoy playing here too.BUT If someone gave me the honor of choosing me as their next opponent in a competitive contest of PvP for no reason at all out there, as someone when I was a teenager back then who always worked and managed to get myself in the top PvP and other competitive ranks in the leaderboards in games I played, I won't deny them the competition. No need to judge the people who want to do that at all, unless a toxic salty attitude they might have, which in case the community here is mostly mature. But the issue here is I can see the engineering stuff will, first, start causing a big difference between the NPC and the galaxy of E : D compared to the players that this will start breaking immersion and making the game more boring, and second, it will directly force anyone who hopes to have a go at PvP or hopes to have a survival chance in PvP that they get thrown at them in Open to have some engineering done, after fully engineered ships start being a common sight across the galaxy. This makes engineering stuff a must rather than an option for the players which will further breaking of immersion and somewhat split the community later on (hope not) and it will absolutely limit the varieties of scenarios that can happen out there.
I agree with people saying, make it some sort of a "slider" kind of thing, like how the pips work.. more pips in shield? loose it in other areas etc. Want more jump range? Here you go but your engine is going to consume a lot more fuel which will result in the explorer on a trip to the center of the galaxy to jump further, but spend more time refuelling thus balance and they can easily shave off time by carefully planning their route with that ship. Some people don't get effected from chaff, but some people really cant counter it so for example give them the option to engineer their ship to lower the effects of chaff on them at a cost of.. damage? extra consumption? or something, dunno, just give out balanced tweaks like that, not these riddiculus additional effects :|
Not to mention Engineers doesn't make sense anyway.
Elite was the sort of game you didnt grind for lumps of rocks, Elite was a game where you found the engineer, worked for them, then eventually when you had enough trust with them, they would "sell" you the upgrades...
Of course, working with one engineers, may mean undermining a whole bunch of other engineers..... So pick your friends wisely.
So IMO, Engineers just highlighted that the person/team that is designing this game have no clue what they hell they are doing.
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Even if they just removed the ability to "purchase" the special effects.