2.2's Instant Ship and Module Transport - Yay or Nay?

[Sysmon]

Whatever it is, teleporter or 3D printer, instantly moving objects from A to B over any distance completely destroys previous game mechanics, like economy and station type.

If it has no price or consequence, we agree 100%. In lieu of our ability to respawn ourselves, being against some sort of limited matter transporter seems a bit inconsistent, if we require both to be explainable by the game lore.

If the transfer works as I suggested earlier, by mapping the object to be sent completely and transferring that as a digitial signal while the matter itself is hyperspaced as an amorphous blob to be 3D printed on the other side from the matter sent, a couple of things need to be set in place for it to fit in the game world:

First of all, why isn't it done everywhere, with everything and by everybody? It must be really expensive, resource demanding, or require rare facilities. If it is really expensive, but a token fee for us (according to the live stream), we must be really really rich by default compared to the rest of the human population. Maybe "credits" are only really used as a currency to deal with the Pilots Federation? Not sure it fits with lore, though, although there is a price difference between books and the game.

If it is resource demanding, the resource could also be time: Mapping an object to its subatomic scale and sending that info to a receiving printer may take a while, and "baking" a new copy may also be a bit slow. The process could also go wrong and machines don't usually have as much redundancy as a living organism (on a cellular level), so may be prone to degrading during transfer. The resource could be materials, and the destruction of the sent object could be for legal reasons. But why aren't there clones everywhere then where the law is a bit in second place.

If the technology is tricky, we shouldn't be able to do it from everywhere to everywhere.

In any case, there better be a good explanation for it developed, and it better not get in the way of the current game mechanics.

S

 

[Rygir]

It wouldn't. Let's say the time delay is equal (as roughly as can be calculated) to very efficient normal flight. If you're moving one ship to your current location, you have instantly saved the time it takes to fly a Sidey to the original destination. If you're moving two ships, you have instantly saved two trips. If you're moving 100 ships, you have instantly saved 100 Sidey ship flights.

In addition to that : If you are asking your ship to come to you and it takes the same time it would take you to fly it there yourself, then obviously you can play and do something else in the meantime! You don't have to sit there and wait for it to arrive. In other words, even if it takes a standard delay of 24 hours it would still be useful. Just like I can drive over to your house, pretty much anywhere on the same continent, in a day and deliver you a package in person, it's still much easier to give it to the postman and have them do it, even if they take three days to do it.

 

[AndyJ]

He explained it like a designer, not a writer of lore.

Yes - this is the simplest, cheapest way to implement it, and tick the box.

He explained it from a game play design perspective and he made it clear.

Explained for a single player with little time who wants to move their fleet. No thought as to how it can be abused and affect other players (e.g. CG) and quite frankly contempt that it undermines jump distances, ship FSD and balances. Yes, we *could* have ship transporters to move things about as he also suggests - but we haven't ... and if we did, well then they would be MASSIVE and should take even longer to move about than individual ships, and probably only between certain routes. (If I can think this through at 4am, why can't he?)

I don't think the 3D printing thing was even him, I think he pulled that from the community saying it. I'd have to listen to it again to be sure, but that's how I remember it.

Oh it was him, he came up with it in the EDGC16 feed when describing how the fighter bay holds multiple fighters, but only one can be launched at a time - because only 1 can exist to be launched, and a new one is printed to replace it when destroyed. Now 3d printing is doing the rounds in the office - i.e. what else can we wave away with it...
oh and this was in the same speech about the NPC fighters who we should care about and nuture to grow their ranks, ooh they have their own bio ... but we can't be bothered to give them an escape pod so they die with our main ship? There are plenty of other reasons the NPC may choose to leave, e.g. we've died too often, we're engaged in illegal activities against their morals... but no, just kill them ... because again it's cheap and easy to code, rather than flesh it out.

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

Did they say officialy that its done via 3D printing? as if thats the case , its a bit silly.

I mean the idea that your ship is rebuilt in another station is better than 3D printing but for that to work wear and tear and engineer mods need to be removed on transfer

Yeah, I believe that's the explanation given for the "instant" transfer, apparently Sandro used it in the Lave Radio interview. I can't fully confirm it as I haven't listened to the entire podcast.

That being said, I think there are major problems with this explanation.

1. Engineered mods can't be replicated, otherwise they aren't random.
2. You would essentially be creating an entirely new ship with each transfer.
3. There's no reason to destroy your old ship, or lest we forget modules. Which again can't be replicated with engineered mods.
4. That leads to actually purchasing new ships and modules at all shipyards, not really transferring.
5. There's no reason to destroy the replicated ship at your destination.

This leads to a few conclusions:

A. You will end up with a massive fleet of ships and modules littering the galaxy with each transfer.
B. There will be no reason to transfer again to the same station once it's done the 1st time unless you take it elsewhere.
C. With this replication technology there will be no shortage of off the shelf ships or modules. Therefore all shipyards will carry everything.

Edited to add that the massive twists and contortions of logic that are required to use 3D printing and not some teleportation technology are mind-boggling. And of course FD will find some twisted logic to prevent these obvious outcomes.

 

[Cmdr Cheese Wedge]

The panic and hyperbole is what I find nonsense.

Not hyperbole

I roleplay this game, when major changes, and yes this will be a major change, it messes with my "reality".
Yes Frontier have been bi-polar on many aspects of the game regarding in-game lore, 3d-printed drones is a stretch as well as things like galaxy wide Galnet news, RNG Engineers etc.
Most of these can be hand waved because although they are a stretch they still fit within the framework of the game.

So if teleportation is a thing, why not just teleport ourselves around the bubble and galaxy, why not teleport cargo?

It's a game and convenient because the lead designer says so.


In the end I'll have to deal with it in this way.
"I reject your reality and substitute my own."

 

[Khelder]

In addition to that : If you are asking your ship to come to you and it takes the same time it would take you to fly it there yourself, then obviously you can play and do something else in the meantime! You don't have to sit there and wait for it to arrive. In other words, even if it takes a standard delay of 24 hours it would still be useful. Just like I can drive over to your house, pretty much anywhere on the same continent, in a day and deliver you a package in person, it's still much easier to give it to the postman and have them do it, even if they take three days to do it.

You're quite right. I forgot that bit. Not only do you save yourself a Sidey flight per ship, you also gain that time as potential alternate gameplay. Or, of course, you could just kick all the transfers off at the end of your session, go to bed, and they'd likely be there the next time you logged in. Almost like..... instantly.

 

[AndyJ]

Yeah, I believe that's the explanation given for the "instant" transfer, apparently Sandro used it in the Lave Radio interview. I can't fully confirm it as I haven't listened to the entire podcast.

That being said, I think there are major problems with this explanation.

1. Engineered mods shouldn't be replicated.
2. You would essentially be creating an entirely ne

based on that.
3. partial transmission

 

[Rygir]

So then essentially the issue here isn't actually instant ship transfer, it's your own grasping and attachment that is causing you suffering and misery. If you let go of this attachment then you can find happiness, even in a world where ship transfers are instant.

Elite is defined by it's enormous galaxy. A galaxy based on real world science at that. If you hollow out that principle, what is left of this game? A mediocre space shooter? There are others that do this part better. The thing that makes Elite fundamentally better than any other game out there is it's believability. And that comes from having a gameworld/universe based on rules. If you nilly willy break and alter these rules then they have no value, none of the remaining game rules do. There is nothing left to build your experience on. You can just as well take Universe Sandbox and write fan fiction based on what you do there.

The stories in people's mind are shaped by how they believe the world they play in functions. If there are no rules, then there are no guidelines that the story should follow and it can basically become anything at all. Anything at all is the same as not having a game/rules to begin with, it's just your imagination. The whole point of game rules is to limit the possibilties in order to stimulate your imagination to work with those rules to come up with solutions.

 

[Frambitam]

based on that.
3. partial transmission

That packet loss - "Hey, why does my Anaconda have a gaping hole in the hull now?"

 

[Cmdr Cheese Wedge]

You're quite right. I forgot that bit. Not only do you save yourself a Sidey flight per ship, you also gain that time as potential alternate gameplay. Or, of course, you could just kick all the transfers off at the end of your session, go to bed, and they'd likely be there the next time you logged in. Almost like..... instantly.

Planning in advance what a crazy emotional hyperbolic notion.

 

[Ironwolf]

If we are 3D printing our ships that are potentially 100's of LY's away.... How does the station I'm in know the specifications of my other ship?

Long range data mission anyone?

 

[Brian of Ardagh]

based on that.
3. partial transmission

Yeah, hard typing on a phone sometimes. I did finish though and I think it's a master stroke of genius.

 

[MarcusKross]

Elite is defined by it's enormous galaxy. A galaxy based on real world science at that. If you hollow out that principle, what is left of this game? A mediocre space shooter? There are others that do this part better. The thing that makes Elite fundamentally better than any other game out there is it's believability. And that comes from having a gameworld/universe based on rules. If you nilly willy break and alter these rules then they have no value, none of the remaining game rules do. There is nothing left to build your experience on. You can just as well take Universe Sandbox and write fan fiction based on what you do there.

The stories in people's mind are shaped by how they believe the world they play in functions. If there are no rules, then there are no guidelines that the story should follow and it can basically become anything at all. Anything at all is the same as not having a game/rules to begin with, it's just your imagination. The whole point of game rules is to limit the possibilties in order to stimulate your imagination to work with those rules to come up with solutions.

Can somebody forward this post to Sandro.. like a million times please.

 

[raeat]

I agree with transferring everything. I have a little trouble with instantaneous, but it is not enough of an issue with me that I think it overrides any server considerations. I don't want unnecessary server resources dedicated to keeping a counter for every player. In an ideal world, transfer time should take as long as it would take to hire an NPC pilot to do it and with a CR cost (hiring a pilot to bring it to you - hey, that could be a new mission type for beginner pilots/or scaled).

Or maybe FDev should just allow us to purchase passage to another system, so that we could go back to our old dockyard and fly them to the new one ourselves. They really do need to develop the people transport missions anyway.

 

[AndyJ]

If we are 3D printing our ships that are potentially 100's of LY's away.... How does the station I'm in know the specifications of my other ship?

Long range data mission anyone?

Quantum entangled 3D fax machines. Obviously.

 

[Moonax IRL]

Elite is defined by it's enormous galaxy. A galaxy based on real world science at that. If you hollow out that principle, what is left of this game? A mediocre space shooter? There are others that do this part better. The thing that makes Elite fundamentally better than any other game out there is it's believability. And that comes from having a gameworld/universe based on rules. If you nilly willy break and alter these rules then they have no value, none of the remaining game rules do. There is nothing left to build your experience on. You can just as well take Universe Sandbox and write fan fiction based on what you do there.

The stories in people's mind are shaped by how they believe the world they play in functions. If there are no rules, then there are no guidelines that the story should follow and it can basically become anything at all. Anything at all is the same as not having a game/rules to begin with, it's just your imagination. The whole point of game rules is to limit the possibilties in order to stimulate your imagination to work with those rules to come up with solutions.

While I agree with everything you say I feel compelled to point out to you that the term is willy nilly not nilly willy ​just in case you may pick up a ban for the latter.[cry]

Edit +1 rep for you Cmdr for causing me to burst into a fit of laughter on reading nilly willy, I needed that after this fiasco.[squeeeee]

 

[MarcusKross]

Planning in advance what a crazy emotional hyperbolic notion.

Crazier than magic teleportation it seems.

 

[Ironwolf]

Quantum entangled 3D fax machines. Obviously.

Every Power should play with one.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Can somebody forward this post to Sandro.. like a million times please.

It will only ever be read by the sock puppet.

 

[raeat]

Can somebody forward this post to Sandro.. like a million times please.

Make sure you add that force field technology and frame shift drives are fantasy elements, and that character death is not real.

Oh yeah, and ramming docks doesn't get you a fine. Neither does speeding. And stations do not impound illicit goods and ...

the list goes on...

 

[Ironwolf]

Quantum entangled 3D fax machines. Obviously.

Industrial 3D printers and Quantum entangled 3D fax machines.
Obviously.

- - - - - Additional Content Posted / Auto Merge - - - - -

Make sure you add that force field technology and frame shift drives are fantasy elements, and that character death is not real.

Oh yeah, and ramming docks doesn't get you a fine. Neither does speeding. And stations do not impound illicit goods and ...

the list goes on...

No. The list gets shorter.
The dwindling list of believable mechanics.