The Human Type9ipede?
Bulk Sale Fee? Hidden Tax For Traders?
- Thread starter Kubicide
- Start date
The Human Type9ipede?
Whatever this is going to be (or it is now but I can't see the traces yet) I welcome it.
I do mostly trading and recognized how the 99% of a market is falling out of the game just because it's always the one commodity on the highest selling point remains in play. And the rest is just to sroll through.
I can easily accept a nicely scaled fee on bulk amounts so a trader could play a bit more around commodity portfolios to figure out and load into the cargo hold.
Definitely more interesting than just pressing the buy and sell buttons on the same commodity over and over again.
Also the missions will make more sense with their lower rewards. (Now I skip most of them as well as their return is just way below than the profit of a single tonne of commodity.)
What I could also be happy with over a single fee is if certain high value commodities would require a certain rating in trading to be able to pick up more than 2-3 tons of that.
Thank you FD, great feature! Looking forward to the next one too!
I do mostly trading and recognized how the 99% of a market is falling out of the game just because it's always the one commodity on the highest selling point remains in play. And the rest is just to sroll through.
I can easily accept a nicely scaled fee on bulk amounts so a trader could play a bit more around commodity portfolios to figure out and load into the cargo hold.
Definitely more interesting than just pressing the buy and sell buttons on the same commodity over and over again.
Also the missions will make more sense with their lower rewards. (Now I skip most of them as well as their return is just way below than the profit of a single tonne of commodity.)
What I could also be happy with over a single fee is if certain high value commodities would require a certain rating in trading to be able to pick up more than 2-3 tons of that.
Thank you FD, great feature! Looking forward to the next one too!
Last edited:
Ok, we have a hidden tax because we can flood the market.
Now, what is advantage / effect of get a higher Trader Rank ? Less tax ? Bulk discounts for traders ? Higher sell prices ? Or is just some useless stats ?
Or yet, let me guess, a feature dont implemented yet.
(excused me my bad english)
Now, what is advantage / effect of get a higher Trader Rank ? Less tax ? Bulk discounts for traders ? Higher sell prices ? Or is just some useless stats ?
Or yet, let me guess, a feature dont implemented yet.
(excused me my bad english)
Michael Brookes
Game Director
Regards things like this upsetting the economy, does anyone really care?
What people seem to care about when they talk about the economy is the profit they make from trading.
They don't seem to care if the simulation of the economy is good or working they just care about their profits.
i.e. traders complained when the markets were broken and they didn't make much profit, they didn't complain when rare trade goods were broken and made too much profit (the people complaining were other professions saying it wasn't fair the amount of money rare goods made compared to other professions).
What people seem to care about when they talk about the economy is the profit they make from trading.
They don't seem to care if the simulation of the economy is good or working they just care about their profits.
i.e. traders complained when the markets were broken and they didn't make much profit, they didn't complain when rare trade goods were broken and made too much profit (the people complaining were other professions saying it wasn't fair the amount of money rare goods made compared to other professions).
Michael Brookes
Game Director
Can you give an example of how this works? It isn't clear to me from your original description.
This is a key detail.
Calm down folks, it only applies to one system.
The lack of charges only applies to one system (the founders one), meaning everybody is charged it when not in the founders system.
I read a post a while back when discussing trading issues which seems to fit well with this discussion, link to thread below
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=78843
I had to read the linked thread a couple of times before I understood what it was saying. The key detail has already been mentioned in this thread by Dark Lord.
In fact the term "bulk sale fee" is inaccurate. It should more accurately be described as a "bulk cargo carrying fee" based on the description given.
In the thread above the poster says this:
Rearranging the order of events:
* When Beermachine arrived at the station with no cargo, the price was 7061.
* When he arrived with 200T, the price was 6869
* When he arrived with 441T, the price was 6772.
Even if you only intended to sell 1T of cargo, the fact that you had a significant amount sitting in your hold implies you wouldn't get the best price for that 1T.
It would be interesting to see how the bulk cargo carrying fee scales with amount of cargo carried. Perhaps someone in a T9 could report the price offered when arriving with 1, 2, 4, 8, 16, 32, 64, 128, 256 units, then maybe other numbers.
That makes sense, as otherwise people would only sell 1 ton, then another, then another, then another ... and circumvent the system by dragging out sales. Thus, the market assumes that when you want to make a sale, you intend to sell everything you've registered on it (meaning, all goods in your hold). Which is probably true for 99% of all cases.
I did some tests. Not as much as I'd like but enough to get an idea about what's happening. My testing was limited to 128T of cargo in an Asp.
First a discussion about what the "bulk sale fee" or "bulk cargo carrying fee" or "bulk hauling fee" actually is.
You arrive at a station either not carrying any cargo or carrying cargo other than commodity X. You notice that the sell price is Y. Later you return to the station with a large quantity of commodity X and notice that when you sell it yields less than Y.
Now some observations I made while testing.
* The price offered is based on the amount of commodity X you are carrying when you enter the system. Selling some cargo, undocking from the station and landing immediately didn't change the offer price I saw when I landed with less cargo. Leaving the station, entering supercruise, dropping back out of supercruise and landing at the station didn't change the price. Only jumping to another system and back again had any effect.
* The price offered for commodity X is not affected by the amount of other goods carried.
* The price offered for commodities in High demand did not change regardless of amount hauled, at least up to the 128T capacity I was able to test.
* The diminishing returns for Low demand goods are more severe than for Medium demand goods.
* Diminishing returns vary slightly between commodities.
Example numbers for reactive armour, which I carried to station in which it was in Low demand (1258 demand at the start of testing):
Base price advertised with no cargo: 2062
Price with 1T cargo: 2062 as expected
Price with 2T cargo: 2061 0.05% reduction
Price with 4T cargo: 2051 0.53% reduction
Price with 8T cargo: 2050 0.58% reduction
Price with 16T cargo: 2048 0.68% reduction
Price with 32T cargo: 2046 0.78% reduction
Price with 64T cargo: 2038 1.16% reduction
Price with 128T cargo: 2029 1.6% reduction
Using with Beermachine's numbers posted earlier:
Base: 7061
200T: 6869 2.72%
441T: 6772 4.09%
It's reasonable to assume that a fully-loaded T9 could "lose" 5% or more trading value due to this fee.
First a discussion about what the "bulk sale fee" or "bulk cargo carrying fee" or "bulk hauling fee" actually is.
You arrive at a station either not carrying any cargo or carrying cargo other than commodity X. You notice that the sell price is Y. Later you return to the station with a large quantity of commodity X and notice that when you sell it yields less than Y.
Now some observations I made while testing.
* The price offered is based on the amount of commodity X you are carrying when you enter the system. Selling some cargo, undocking from the station and landing immediately didn't change the offer price I saw when I landed with less cargo. Leaving the station, entering supercruise, dropping back out of supercruise and landing at the station didn't change the price. Only jumping to another system and back again had any effect.
* The price offered for commodity X is not affected by the amount of other goods carried.
* The price offered for commodities in High demand did not change regardless of amount hauled, at least up to the 128T capacity I was able to test.
* The diminishing returns for Low demand goods are more severe than for Medium demand goods.
* Diminishing returns vary slightly between commodities.
Example numbers for reactive armour, which I carried to station in which it was in Low demand (1258 demand at the start of testing):
Base price advertised with no cargo: 2062
Price with 1T cargo: 2062 as expected
Price with 2T cargo: 2061 0.05% reduction
Price with 4T cargo: 2051 0.53% reduction
Price with 8T cargo: 2050 0.58% reduction
Price with 16T cargo: 2048 0.68% reduction
Price with 32T cargo: 2046 0.78% reduction
Price with 64T cargo: 2038 1.16% reduction
Price with 128T cargo: 2029 1.6% reduction
Using with Beermachine's numbers posted earlier:
Base: 7061
200T: 6869 2.72%
441T: 6772 4.09%
It's reasonable to assume that a fully-loaded T9 could "lose" 5% or more trading value due to this fee.
Except, if you really were selling enough goods to dampen demand, the price would fluctuate between individual sales and the 'fee' wouldn't be necessary.
The justification seems to be that if you rock up at a station with 1000 units of demand, and you have 1000 units of cargo, they should not offer you the price that was desired at 1000 units of demand for all the units because once you have sold 750 units to them they only require an additional 250 units. Selling units one at a time should cause the value for subsequent units to depress as you sell them.
that's how it should be. Aren't we supposed to influence the market, the universe, and so on?
I ate this on a medium demand as well, is this intended?
I thought I noticed this a few times today, but perhaps sometimes it malfunctions? Ive actually been selling something, at some station, for a few hours today,
and _every_ buy from price in the station actually went up by about 15% every price but what I was selling was affected. at a large population, wealthy economy.
and _every_ buy from price in the station actually went up by about 15% every price but what I was selling was affected. at a large population, wealthy economy.
Last edited:
It affects stuff in high demand too.
My friend with a T6 (104 cargo) gets slightly better profit/tone than my clipper (248) doing the same route