A community divided by a game that went astray of its original vision

seeker939 · Apr 27, 2018

Citytrader said:
Perhaps we could attack this issue another way. You, and several others, keep stating that the management system is broken or needs fixing. OK, let's start there. Rather than sounding like a broken skipping record, just saying it is broke, how about developing a well thought out, line by line, response to this concern?

Your car analogy isn't that great as not everyone agrees there is a problem with the motor. Keep in mind that what you consider broken or not fixed, Frontier may not. Many people are asking for things that were present in the other games Frontier created, but that is not broken. And honestly, starting over from scratch because Cobra has this or that wrong is an unrealistic goal.

Let's try to turn the negativity positive by developing a comprehensive list of items that then can be presented to Frontier and reviewed line by line. Also, not a wish list for new things to add.

So, the game being where it is now, line by line, detailed (not vague) concerns for Frontier to "fix" the game. Go!

I've been saying it for over a year now: The management can't be fixed. It's not engine limitations, it's not specific features that are missing. It's simply poor design choices. I won't repeat myself now, just look at my comment a few pages back.

I don't expect the devs to openly acknowlegde they dropped the ball on this but they must see the weak points, too. I mean, every reviewer does, don't they? As I've said, casual players will probably be fine. But in my opinion everyone else would be better off not hoping for the impossible.

As for the other issues, of course you can pretend they don't exist but don't believe for a second the devs are stupid and can't see them. So far the motto seems to be "if it's somehow functional that's good enough".

The thing that can be fixed is the building and the simulation side of things. There's tons of detailed lists (some dating back to the beta) what's wrong with the tools, the UI etc. and how to change them. I think you're aware of this fact so why are you implying people can't back up their complaints with examples and also good suggestions how to improve?

Citytrader · Apr 28, 2018

seeker939 said:
I've been saying it for over a year now: The management can't be fixed. It's not engine limitations, it's not specific features that are missing. It's simply poor design choices. I won't repeat myself now, just look at my comment a few pages back.

I don't expect the devs to openly acknowlegde they dropped the ball on this but they must see the weak points, too. I mean, every reviewer does, don't they? As I've said, casual players will probably be fine. But in my opinion everyone else would be better off not hoping for the impossible.

As for the other issues, of course you can pretend they don't exist but don't believe for a second the devs are stupid and can't see them. So far the motto seems to be "if it's somehow functional that's good enough".

The thing that can be fixed is the building and the simulation side of things. There's tons of detailed lists (some dating back to the beta) what's wrong with the tools, the UI etc. and how to change them. I think you're aware of this fact so why are you implying people can't back up their complaints with examples and also good suggestions how to improve?

It appears to me that you misunderstood the point of my post. We create a list, not of opinion (it is your opinion that the management can't be fixed, for example), but just create a running laundry list of concrete things that need to be addressed. No filler, no I told you so's, no commentary, no excuses why or why not, just a simple list. Think of it as helping the Devs out. They don't have to wade through 14 pages of negativity to glean what the real complaints are.

Perhaps if each of us copy and paste the list, and add our own concerns? Efficient, orderly, and way more helpful and friendly than bashing each other or each other's ideas.

So, to start, you mentioned the following a few pages back;

The sequencer has some design issues.
The handling of tools feels unfinished.
Same with the UI. (This is exceedingly vague and open to interpretation. What specific problems do you feel need to be addressed?)
The item catalogue (roof pieces!)... (This is asking for new product. We should focus on what is currently in the game)
Feel free to add from the list of the objectively weak areas of PC. (Again, specifics)

I for one, do not like the way the staff break rooms work, and how shops can remain unmanned for days at a time because even the assigned staff does not necessarily return to their allotted booth. As a test, I have had twenty shops and forty vendors, and still have had numerous unmanned booths in a test park.

Chems · Apr 28, 2018

Many times people posted lists with issues. And also very detailed posts about basically any part of the game that doesn't work right now.

Citytrader · Apr 28, 2018

You know, you're absolutely right!

So instead let's all just prattle on for another 14 pages without doing or saying anything productive.
Let's just complain for the sake of complaining, because that's worked so well for us so far, hasn't it?

It's no wonder these forums are the way they are.

Exit, stage left!

seeker939 · Apr 28, 2018

Citytrader said:
It appears to me that you misunderstood the point of my post. We create a list, not of opinion (it is your opinion that the management can't be fixed, for example), but just create a running laundry list of concrete things that need to be addressed. No filler, no I told you so's, no commentary, no excuses why or why not, just a simple list. Think of it as helping the Devs out. They don't have to wade through 14 pages of negativity to glean what the real complaints are.

Perhaps if each of us copy and paste the list, and add our own concerns? Efficient, orderly, and way more helpful and friendly than bashing each other or each other's ideas.

So, to start, you mentioned the following a few pages back;

The sequencer has some design issues.
The handling of tools feels unfinished.
Same with the UI. (This is exceedingly vague and open to interpretation. What specific problems do you feel need to be addressed?)
The item catalogue (roof pieces!)... (This is asking for new product. We should focus on what is currently in the game)
Feel free to add from the list of the objectively weak areas of PC. (Again, specifics)

I for one, do not like the way the staff break rooms work, and how shops can remain unmanned for days at a time because even the assigned staff does not necessarily return to their allotted booth. As a test, I have had twenty shops and forty vendors, and still have had numerous unmanned booths in a test park.

First let's adress your "it's only your opinion" argument. I have good reasons why I'm saying what I'm saying here. I know you don't want to hear this but I've not been wrong about it: After ride aging, security, staff rooms and hotels the management players still complain that there is not enough game. How can that be? Is it because they simply can never be satisfied?

If you think about it, there is a simple explanation: Those extra features did not adress the main problem for management. And if you actually believe the next new feature could turn everything around, maybe you can explain to me how that's a realistic expectation.

My point is: Not all opinions are created equal.

Ok, on to your main point, "Don't be so negative." You're not being fair here - about half this forum is filled with laundry lists like you suggested. Those things have been repeated ad nauseam. Who are you to tell people how they're allowed to voice criticism anyway? To be honest, to me your argument seems more about shutting people up than anything else. We're all reasonable people here - for the most part anyway - and the discussion maybe has been heated at times, but mostly civilized.

The thing is, not only did Frontier stop most/ all communication regarding development once the game was released. We've also seen many of the fundamental things not adressed. I'm talking about major points that are being brought up repeatedly for 2 years. That's not because they CAN'T be changed.
For example, do I really have to explain to you how the item catalogue is screwed up? And with every update/ dlc the mess is getting bigger. There's huge threads showing with pictures and in great detail what and why and how it should be changed. (There's also a good explanation in there what's wrong with the roof section.) Do I have to quote them everytime I say the UI needs work? That would be ridiculous.

DarthLuca · Apr 28, 2018

#1 (for me) - Give us the ability to raise lower terrain under (and around) paths.
#2 ( " ) - Make Information kiosks useful (Maps, Umbrellas (also weather? - It's a can of worms!) or just direct peeps!)

shaneturner12 · Apr 28, 2018

DarthLuca said:
#1 (for me) - Give us the ability to raise lower terrain under (and around) paths.
#2 ( " ) - Make Information kiosks useful (Maps, Umbrellas (also weather? - It's a can of worms!) or just direct peeps!)

A quick note regarding the info kiosks - to some extent they can be used to direct peeps as they support the advertisement feature for specific rides/shops (see the properties box for the kiosk).

Shane

shaneturner12 · Apr 28, 2018

IMO, the best way of asking for improvements from experience is being clear on exactly what is wrong or being requested and what is involved (item, UI etc). General 'criticism' isn't much help if there's nothing specific to go on (although I am aware that in some cases the specifics are included).

Shane

djwessie · Apr 29, 2018

Maybe Frontier needs to ask themselves to maybe start from scratch and redo everything wrong with Planet Coaster. Update it through Steam. That meaning, give the engine a major overhaul and start completely over and release it like it has ended now for the same price. It would make all the complaints go away. Sorry DEV, admit the errors, and start over. Or, start improving.

Bitter Jeweler · Apr 29, 2018

Start from scratch?
[haha][haha][haha]
[wacky]

Helena · Apr 29, 2018

Starting from scratch - not for PlanCo you can be sure about it. But for sequel, maybe. But not now, wait at least 5 years.

Neldot · Apr 29, 2018

My mini list of little things that don't work (at least for me) and should be fixed in the game ASAP:

These are two flaws already pointed out a lot of times, little things that were in the previous RCT3, and their lack make the PC game experience very frustrating for me (and other players). What baffles me is that they seem to be things very easy to fix for the Devs, so I can't understand why they left them broken until now. Who knows, maybe it's true that repetita iuvant, and pointing them out another time will finally make the Devs consider a proper solution.

1) The lack of a check/control/locate function over single guests and their problems. If the game send you a notification of a problem, you should be able to see where are located the people that had the problem. As it is now, you have to guess, and this is both illogical and frustrating for the player point of view, especially when managing a big park.

2) The lack of a testing mode with frozen time before opening a coaster. I have to spend months in game to manage a decent coaster design, with obvious effects on the balance of the other things. This is both illogical and frustrating too, and it only incourages to use pre-made blueprints instead of actually building new coasters.

breezerHOG1 · Apr 29, 2018

Citytrader said:
We create a list, not of opinion (it is your opinion that the management can't be fixed, for example), but just create a running laundry list of concrete things that need to be addressed. No filler, no I told you so's, no commentary, no excuses why or why not, just a simple list. Think of it as helping the Devs out. They don't have to wade through 14 pages of negativity to glean what the real complaints are.

shaneturner12 said:
IMO, the best way of asking for improvements from experience is being clear on exactly what is wrong or being requested and what is involved (item, UI etc). General 'criticism' isn't much help if there's nothing specific to go on (although I am aware that in some cases the specifics are included).

Shane

Not sure how to be more clear, specific, detailed, or organized ^

Bo said in one of the livestreams a few months ago, that larger expansions were not currently in the dev teams plans

hopefully that will change though... https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...e-of-Expansions-or-Add-Ons-are-you-hoping-for

and heres some praise to counter all my critiques https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...feel-neglected?p=229729&viewfull=1#post229729 [up]

GGG2021 · Apr 29, 2018

OMG - I finally understand what IMO means, thanks Shanturner12, [big grin]

shaneturner12 · Apr 29, 2018

djwessie said:
Maybe Frontier needs to ask themselves to maybe start from scratch and redo everything wrong with Planet Coaster. Update it through Steam. That meaning, give the engine a major overhaul and start completely over and release it like it has ended now for the same price. It would make all the complaints go away. Sorry DEV, admit the errors, and start over. Or, start improving.

You do realise that one of the side effects of that would be that only Windows 10 users would be able to play the game?

Shane

shaneturner12 · Apr 29, 2018

breezerHOG said:
Heres many attempts:

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...Important-quot?p=219772&viewfull=1#post219772

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...give-employees-entertainers-new-color-options

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/showthread.php/32339-Guest-mode

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/showthread.php/19432-Rounded-Corner-Shop-Window-and-Counter/

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...ouse-as-the-next-feature?highlight=management

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/showthread.php/28107-MAKE-MANAGEMENT-GREAT-AGAIN?

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/showthread.php/28014-Park-Size-Variations-Purchasing-Land

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...Terrain-Improvements?highlight=square+terrain

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...r-Terrain-and-Water-(VIDEO)?highlight=terrain

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...-Purchasing-Property?highlight=square+terrain

Many of these ^ ideas are needed for the base game, and some could work as DLCs, so I hope we can start seeing some DLCs that are not just mostly all about scenery, and maybe even a"management DLC" might be good!

Not sure how to be more clear, specific, detailed, or organized ^

Bo said in one of the livestreams a few months ago, that larger expansions were not currently in the dev teams plans hopefully that will change though... https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...e-of-Expansions-or-Add-Ons-are-you-hoping-for

and heres some praise to counter all my critiques https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...feel-neglected?p=229729&viewfull=1#post229729 [up]

From what I've seen of your posts, yours seem to be OK on explaining what is required although I know some people here are fairly vague on what exactly they want improving/changing.

Shane

Ramm · Apr 29, 2018

breezerHOG said:
Heres many attempts:

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...Important-quot?p=219772&viewfull=1#post219772

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...give-employees-entertainers-new-color-options

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/showthread.php/32339-Guest-mode

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/showthread.php/19432-Rounded-Corner-Shop-Window-and-Counter/

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...ouse-as-the-next-feature?highlight=management

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/showthread.php/28107-MAKE-MANAGEMENT-GREAT-AGAIN?

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/showthread.php/28014-Park-Size-Variations-Purchasing-Land

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...Terrain-Improvements?highlight=square+terrain

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...r-Terrain-and-Water-(VIDEO)?highlight=terrain

https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...-Purchasing-Property?highlight=square+terrain

Many of these ^ ideas are needed for the base game, and some could work as DLCs, so I hope we can start seeing some DLCs that are not just mostly all about scenery, and maybe even a"management DLC" might be good!

Not sure how to be more clear, specific, detailed, or organized ^

Bo said in one of the livestreams a few months ago, that larger expansions were not currently in the dev teams plans hopefully that will change though... https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...e-of-Expansions-or-Add-Ons-are-you-hoping-for

and heres some praise to counter all my critiques https://forums.planetcoaster.com/sh...feel-neglected?p=229729&viewfull=1#post229729 [up]

Chems said:
Many times people posted lists with issues. And also very detailed posts about basically any part of the game that doesn't work right now.

I dont get when they actually get spoonfed it's sometimes still too much to ask. So many detailed ideas but you see absolutely nothing back

dixinormous · Apr 29, 2018

If we wanted an organized way to track the communities priorities, we could setup a GitHub issue tracker. It has comments , votes and tagging built in.

breezerHOG1 · Apr 29, 2018

dixinormous said:
If we wanted an organized way to track the communities priorities, we could setup a GitHub issue tracker. It has comments , votes and tagging built in.

what more do we need aside from the links I've listed to all the lists I've made?? I know everybody has different wishes, but I think I have covered the majority of major issues, and anything that is popular gets noticed by the community. The most popular threads include track smoothing, scenery addons, expansions, management etc... no point in creating another place on a different website for a smaller group of people to use

People have suggested ways to improve the forums, such as dividing the suggestions section into 2 separate categories (one for new ideas, one for improving current/existing features) and better blueprint categories, but it seems even the admins and Brett have gone afk for quite some time at this point

djwessie · Apr 29, 2018

shaneturner12 said:
You do realise that one of the side effects of that would be that only Windows 10 users would be able to play the game?

Shane

Since older windows versions are not supported by Microsoft anymore and Windows 10 is still better then the Windows 8 product, i would say what is the problem?
We wanted to have a next gen themepark simulator but it feels they only have made a step forward on the coasters from RCT-3 but a huge step backwards on the rest which RCT-3 had. Especially the implementation of the Water, the ride physics etc. Also sometimes you need to build death coasters and guests still go in them? With more then 5 vertical G-force some one get's K.O. And with more then 7! Someone Dies! it are the simple little details that are much and much requested but they doesn't seem to get it fixed! I don't care about weather. I want my ride Physics to be right! And the Water Splashes with custom angles cause the ones provided by the DEV's would kill you in real life before entering the water!