Don't you think continued development of GVR, that that should be taken care of or handled more appropriately? I'm sure you are aware of Samsung's Entrim 4D, which has been mentioned occasionally, will hopefully reduce nausea and enhance VR immersion.
A few more Vive observations, 200+ users over a week
- Thread starter Slopey
- Start date
Don't you think continued development of GVR, that that should be taken care of or handled more appropriately? I'm sure you are aware of Samsung's Entrim 4D, which has been mentioned occasionally, will hopefully reduce nausea and enhance VR immersion.
Slopey
Volunteer Moderator
My practical experience with gamepad style movement is nearer 90% experience nausea, that's from in-house testing with our VR experiences/models, not "propoganda". It's a directly observable effect in a (for me anyway) large percentage of users.
But you're missing the point - you simply can't move 30m in any direction in a game, without some form of teleporting, unless you have a warehouse, and a setup which can cope with that. (Vive lighthouse range is only 6m or so).
Remember that in VR, things need to be scaled properly, so you can't cheat by making the scale smaller as it's obvious. For everyone who I've demo'd the technology to so far, nobody has thought it as broken their immersion. It's just accepted as how you move around in the world.
And as much as you cite "breaking immersion" - how is it more immersive to push forward on a joypad?
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Slopey
Volunteer Moderator
I think if anything that might make me even sicker! Although it'll be interesting to see if it works.
Slopey
Volunteer Moderator
Sliding shoes on a concave bowl "floor". It's likely a good solution for FPSs, but given the size of the unit, and because you're restricted by the device itself, it's probably limited in scope. For example, I can't imagine you could play Vanishing Realms in it very easily with all the leaning/moving you do around points you teleport to. But for Fallout4 for example, it'd be good (and people have apparently got it to work - those who are lucky enough to have a unit that is!).
Which is what I wrote and what you quoted. " room scale when boundaries are reached has limitations and teleportation does nothing to address that, it take you out of the game world in order to merely allow you to move forward.". Pad based locomotion does not take you out of the game experience in order to allow you to move past said boundaries.
Put it another way. Some novice VR user, fires up Elite, performs a few rolls in his / her ship and it makes them queezy. Should we now enforce a fade to black transition when a VR user performs a roll to mitigate the issue? My opinion would be no, however it may be a nice consideration as an option for those unfortunate enough to suffer from the issue. Everyone else would find it immersion breaking and annoying. This is how people that do not suffer from sim sickness find enforced teleportation, annoying and ultimately immersion breaking.
With a pad, I may hover as you put it, however it is closer, other than the fact I'm not moving my legs, to walking from A to B in real life. I can look at my surroundings as they pass me by, allowing for interactions and chance encounters. Or I could magically appear then dissappear.... Missing the entire journey from A to B, or completing it in segments which remove me from the game with every jump. How would elite be if everytime you engage the hyper drive you magically appear next to the target star, no witchspace transition just a quick fade to black and there you are. Thats teleportation and it removes a lot of the experience.
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Slopey
Volunteer Moderator
For ED, this would be patently ludicrous. There's nothing you can do for a seated cockpit scenario, but in those scenarios nausea is much reduced.
That is a totally different VR environment than "walking" without physically moving.
Which headsets do you currently own, as you must have experienced the disconnect between motion and lack of proper physical motion - especially with strafing.
You have a tendency to opt for one thing only. Teleportation or joypad or whatever is an option based on what works with the game. Playing Elite means you need to fly, removing flight removes the game, however even in the 2D game there are calls to remove some of the effects that induce nausea such as the head shake. Disabling that came with VR. Propaganda reasons or because the nausea it induces in VR is even more than in 2D?
Some games will simply not work with teleporting, FPS and driving/flying games most likely although I imagine some FPS games would be OK but the game would need to support that so it didn't seem too odd. The problem with joypad type movement today is it is less like ME moving, rather it is more like the WORLD is moving. Great care needs to be taken to mitigate this. Anyone susceptible to motion sickness/seasickness is likely to experience this. High speed FPS is just going to be a lawyer's dream come true. Spinning, side stepping and ducking/dodging followed by barfing and head trauma.
Using the hyperspace transition in Elite would only be a good example if it actually had anything of interest past the first couple of jumps. It is a loading screen, nothing more. No chance encounters, nothing you are likely to have missed. Nothing that would have been lost through just appearing next to the star. I prefer to keep it though. Be nice if they expanded it to maybe see other things in witchspace, ships, random stars, planets or even t'argoids.
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I started using HMDs when the Sony HMZ-T1 released, moded into a cycle helmet with TrackIR for headtracking, then the DK1, DK2, 2 revisions of the GearVR and now the CV1.
A blast from the past (2011):
Strafing, moving or turning with a pad in VR has never caused any issues for me, nor does it with the first person titles available right now on the Oculus store or Steam. I've even used injectors to play none native first person titles, some extremely fast paced. Never have I had an issue, nor have countless others.
Until we got closer to the commercial launch of VR both companies touted and promoted first person VR games using control pads as the go to titles. What we have now is damage control nothing more.
At its core it is no different, in one game I pilot a ship in another I essentially pilot an avatar, besides some users find cockpit games just as sickness inducing in VR as the more traditional first person titles. Both genres are doing the very same thing - artificial locomotion, you happen to have a greater tolerance to the cockpit games than first person games in VR. As you say, teleportation or very quick 'fade out, fade in' transitions would be pretty luducrous in Elite but the point of my anaology was just that, so why is it any less luducrous to do it in a first person VR title which didn't have a "hey I have a teleportation gun" narrative than while flying a ship Elite...? The only difference is that we're both used to Elite and how first person space sims play, to make it an enforced slide show of teleportation based movement would be butchery. Like it or not the same is also true for non cockpit first person VR games, enforced teleportation butchers the experience, you accept it in the later case as you suffer from sim sickness in those scenarios and it eleveates the problem for you and allows you to play a genre you would otherwise not be able to play. If you didn't have that problem you would likely have the same opinion about enforced teleportation as myself.
Neither locomotion method is strictly wrong, however it is wrong as I'm sure we can all agree to enforce either on the player particuarly when one offers a lesser experience in terms of immersion, the very thing VR is trying achieve. Options are the best way forward, many of us with VR legs flat out refuse to purchase or play any VR title with enforced comfort modes and the numbers of such users taking this stance are increasing judging from what I have seen.
Take a look at HLVR, in my opinion its the best first person VR experience you could get and far more immersive than anything that implements teleportation. Budget Cuts plays like a bike with two flat tires in comparison, even with its superior motion tracked controllers. That said, for some users comfort mode options in HLVR could have been beneficial due to nessessity but they would have offered the player a lesser experience, something as a sim sickness immune player I will not accept, the raw experience should always be an option.
Spit, I have no such tenancies. I play in VR primarily for the added immersion it provides, my opinion and one I may add that I'm far from being alone in sharing, is that enforced teleportation and other comfort modes throw that immersion out of the Window. The Technolust developer found that out the hard way but he soon changed his stance, although he won't publicly admit to that. However his actions and the current state of the game speaks more than a thousand words.
The hyperspace thing was an analogy, not an example, used to demonstrate the 'disconnect' fade to black transitions produce in VR as opposed to the almost seemless traversal of the in game universe we currently have in Elite. The same transitions you would choose to keep over not having at all - even if they offer you nothing in terms of game play its about the immersion they provide and the disconnect not having them would produce - even if they are just glorifed loading screens. I would also prefer to keep my fluid traversal of game worlds than have that taken away by enforced teleportation but I do understand that people in your position need options if said experiences are too much for your stomach. That said they should remain a comfort option, even if they are the default locomotion option, but never an enforced standard.
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Slopey
I am seeing a lot of the same things. I am also a game developer. Originally my game was intended for the android and IOS platforms but I decided a few months ago to also port it to Oculus and Rift. It comes out the end of next month for the phone platforms and the following month for the VR HD's www.ballancedgame.com
I am seeing a lot of the same things. I am also a game developer. Originally my game was intended for the android and IOS platforms but I decided a few months ago to also port it to Oculus and Rift. It comes out the end of next month for the phone platforms and the following month for the VR HD's www.ballancedgame.com
![[HJ]-RedRaven](https://forums-cdn.zaonce.net/data/avatars/m/67/67389.jpg?1553527112){kind=avatar}
As a potential VR user, I'm somewhat apprehensive. My CV1 hasn't been delivered yet.
As a person, I'm aware of motion sickness (many simply aren't). I've done my private pilot's licence training in a 2-seat Cessna, so I'm somewhat familiar with feeling really uncomfortable (and sick multiple times in the same flight). I have driven Lotus-7 type clubmans (I own a Birkin clubman) on track-days. As a driver you're fine. As a passenger? Yikes, hell on wheels.
Having these experiences under my belt probably sets me aside from the average potential VR buyer.
Its a non-zero risk to me that I get into Elite (or other titles), feel sick after playing for 10-15 minutes... and feel like I wasted my cash. I'd like to think I'll get used to it in a week or two, but worst comes to worst and I end up not being able to use it, I will want to try to sell the unit. But as an 'early adopter', I'm ready to take that risk and beat it over the head.
The problem is everyone else is different, and so developers kinda move towards catering for the lowest common denominator - ie assuming most, if not almost all players will get sick if their game/experience is an intense one. So they develop ways to mitigate that risk.
Its going to be really hard for many developers to ignore any inducement of nausea etc in their game's VR mode. The negative press/reviews/ bad word of mouth (barf word of mouth?) is something they can't ignore.
If they get 10 players into a intense-VR game, and 9 get sick (but it's realistic), and 1 has fun, they'll lose longer-term sales due to bad reviews.
Alternatively, if the same 10 players into a game, and 1 player leaves because the motion mechanic isn't immersive, but the other 9 players don't get sick because the developer had ways to reduce the amount of players feeling green - well that's a better result, no?
But I agree some experiences should not be 'dumbed down' - as they're integral to the core experience. A joy-flight in an aerobatic 'plane cannot be 'dumbed down'. It is what it is, and its damn uncomfortable for most people. (Hell, try low-speed stall training in a Cessna one time! Urgh.) A VR version of the aerobatics experience will almost certainly be a worst-case scenario for many VR users.
I'm willing to give Elite/War Thunder/ DCS a damn good go, even feeling sick multiple times, in order to earn my sea/space/hover-legs if need be.
Not all consumers will put that effort in though.
As a person, I'm aware of motion sickness (many simply aren't). I've done my private pilot's licence training in a 2-seat Cessna, so I'm somewhat familiar with feeling really uncomfortable (and sick multiple times in the same flight). I have driven Lotus-7 type clubmans (I own a Birkin clubman) on track-days. As a driver you're fine. As a passenger? Yikes, hell on wheels.
Having these experiences under my belt probably sets me aside from the average potential VR buyer.
Its a non-zero risk to me that I get into Elite (or other titles), feel sick after playing for 10-15 minutes... and feel like I wasted my cash. I'd like to think I'll get used to it in a week or two, but worst comes to worst and I end up not being able to use it, I will want to try to sell the unit. But as an 'early adopter', I'm ready to take that risk and beat it over the head.
The problem is everyone else is different, and so developers kinda move towards catering for the lowest common denominator - ie assuming most, if not almost all players will get sick if their game/experience is an intense one. So they develop ways to mitigate that risk.
Its going to be really hard for many developers to ignore any inducement of nausea etc in their game's VR mode. The negative press/reviews/ bad word of mouth (barf word of mouth?) is something they can't ignore.
If they get 10 players into a intense-VR game, and 9 get sick (but it's realistic), and 1 has fun, they'll lose longer-term sales due to bad reviews.
Alternatively, if the same 10 players into a game, and 1 player leaves because the motion mechanic isn't immersive, but the other 9 players don't get sick because the developer had ways to reduce the amount of players feeling green - well that's a better result, no?
But I agree some experiences should not be 'dumbed down' - as they're integral to the core experience. A joy-flight in an aerobatic 'plane cannot be 'dumbed down'. It is what it is, and its damn uncomfortable for most people. (Hell, try low-speed stall training in a Cessna one time! Urgh.) A VR version of the aerobatics experience will almost certainly be a worst-case scenario for many VR users.
I'm willing to give Elite/War Thunder/ DCS a damn good go, even feeling sick multiple times, in order to earn my sea/space/hover-legs if need be.
Not all consumers will put that effort in though.
I absolutely do no believe that 6 or 9% quote either. 100% of people I have shown VR too has suffered from nausea in games/demos where you use a controller to rotate your view and/or strafe.
When my DK2 was still hooked to my rig I used to play Ark in VR wihtout any nausea. I also used to play Windland and Subnautica wihtout adverse effects. So far I tried Windland with my Vive and after a tiny bit of stomach upturning things got a loot better. So ... now you know me, that brings your 100% to 75%
Hint : in Windland on the Vive, while standing, I found that if I lean slightly my body in the direction I am moving the nausea is canceled completely.
When my DK2 was still hooked to my rig I used to play Ark in VR wihtout any nausea. I also used to play Windland and Subnautica wihtout adverse effects. So far I tried Windland with my Vive and after a tiny bit of stomach upturning things got a loot better. So ... now you know me, that brings your 100% to 75%
Hint : in Windland on the Vive, while standing, I found that if I lean slightly my body in the direction I am moving the nausea is canceled completely.
Well with the 4 of us - Slopey, Jabokai yourself and I we have an equal 50 - 50 split.
Contrary to both Slopey and Jabokai experiences, I have only ever known two people of the many, many people I have demoed VR to since the DK1 to have any sign of nausea, one of those suffers from it IRL and cannot take long coach rides. The other felt it in Elite, while performing rolls... But as Slopey says, that's fine to ignore because he himself is not in that demographic and helping that user in Elite by adding the very same comfort mode techniques he himself uses in the software he develops would be ludicrous in that situation. Funny that when you find yourself on the other side of the fence its somehow no longer ludicrous...
It's easy to believe that because you suffer from sim sickness, 90% of the population do or will. Its just not true, Valve and Oculus are playing it safe at the moment is all, that said there are still a large number of games which allow traditional pad based locomotion - something many of us are very happy about. Anyone with any interest in stereo 3D technology and its fate will have a fair idea why this approach was taken by both companies. Negative press killed that tech, would be consumers rejected it based on the negative experiences of a vocal minority. So many times have I seen the comment "I haven't tried it, it gives you headaches".....Thats what we're avoiding here, just swap out the headaches and add in sim sickness. Damage control nothing more.
A recent topic on Reddit (which I know some of you hate) but you may find surprising in terms of the number of people requesting the removal of the enforced "comfort modes" in VR games.. The number of pros drastically outweighs the number of nays. Not a scientific study I grant you, but an example of the numbers we're talking about here, surprising how many there are that want proper locomotion options as opposed to comfort modes, for such a small user base I think that alone blows the 90 - 99% figure out of the water.... People who get sick in VR are more vocal about it than those who do not. Until developers started to butcher VR experiences we remained quiet and now we're fighting back. We're not opposed to comfort modes, we're opposed to enforced comfort modes at the cost of immersion - options is all we ask for.
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Depends on the game/demo and length of time in it I reckon. All the people I demoed got sick in Dreadhalls, HL2 and the Oculus Tuscany demo, and so did I. It's the turning when you're not really turning that does it as I can play Dreadhalls on a Gear VR, in a swivel chair, and have zero nausea. None of the people I demoed to have any issues with real life travel sickness, save maybe on boats/ships and rough seas.
I find it really hard to believe that you've shown the people the experiences most likely to cause nausea and/or let them play long enough.
I find it really hard to believe that you've shown the people the experiences most likely to cause nausea and/or let them play long enough.
I suspect this is a personal question, the one thing I dislike with Vanishing Worlds is getting wrapped up in cable because it forces me to constantly turn around. A simple rotation facility would help no end.
Got my Vive on Wednesday and much of that time has been spent in Elite going OMG, oh sweet mother of galactic beauty and jebus look at the size of that flipping thing!
I did get a brief period to get chance to try the Vive in Unity (mainly thanks to Slopey reminding me that was possible when I stumbled on this post). Really I think the ideal is to offer the option to either walk/run to where you want to go or to teleport (it really isn't that difficult) but I'd also give the option to rotate. Roomscale is great for close in combat as in Vanishing Realms but teleporting does annoy me as well.
That said I seem to have a high tolerance to VR nausea! The amount of time I spent in high speed floor rolling trying to get walking sorted for the Vive was ridiculous
OK Unity is completely free to download so if it helps giving people the option to walk in a game like Vanishing Realms this is my trackpad solution for the Vive. I'll SPOILER it as it's only going to useful to a few.
Put Steam VR into your game (from the asset store), create a terrain and drag the VR camera prefab into it. Double click the camera prefab to centre it and create an empty gameobject. Make the empty gameobject the parent of the Camera (drag the VR camera onto the gameobject). You might as well call the empty gameobject Player and/or tag it as such.
Expand down the the layers of the Player/Camera till you get to the left/right controller, now whichever one you want to control movement put this C# script onto it and drag the Player object onto the public player slot in the script.
using UnityEngine;
using System.Collections;
using Valve.VR;
public class myTouchpad : MonoBehaviour
{
public GameObject player;
SteamVR_Controller.Device device;
SteamVR_TrackedObject controller;
Vector2 touchpad;
private float sensitivityX = 1.5F;
private Vector3 playerPos;
void Start()
{
controller = gameObject.GetComponent<SteamVR_TrackedObject>();
}
// Update is called once per frame
void Update()
{
device = SteamVR_Controller.Input((int)controller.index);
//If finger is on touchpad
if (device.GetTouch(SteamVR_Controller.ButtonMask.Touchpad))
{
//Read the touchpad values
touchpad = device.GetAxis(EVRButtonId.k_EButton_SteamVR_Touchpad);
// Handle movement via touchpad
if (touchpad.y > 0.2f || touchpad.y < -0.2f) {
// Move Forward
player.transform.position -= player.transform.forward * Time.deltaTime * (touchpad.y * 5f);
// Adjust height to terrain height at player positin
playerPos = player.transform.position;
playerPos.y = Terrain.activeTerrain.SampleHeight (player.transform.position);
player.transform.position = playerPos;
}
// handle rotation via touchpad
if (touchpad.x > 0.3f || touchpad.x < -0.3f) {
player.transform.Rotate (0, touchpad.x * sensitivityX, 0);
}
//Debug.Log ("Touchpad X = " + touchpad.x + " : Touchpad Y = " + touchpad.y);
}
}
}
Bingo you can walk around, there are plenty of teleport scripts available for the Vive so I'll not cover that (this is an Elite forum!). The Rift will be similar but we'll need to wait for the controllers to turn up.
Incidentally you can't strafe in that script it simply turns and moves forwards and backwards but you could implement strafe by using the trigger or the other touchpad. I don't find it nausea inducing but then that's just me and you can look around whilst moving which may well trigger nausea for those that suffer.
I still think an option in the menu for navigation is the way to go though if you're developing a nascent technology like VR, give people the choice and see what works.
Expand down the the layers of the Player/Camera till you get to the left/right controller, now whichever one you want to control movement put this C# script onto it and drag the Player object onto the public player slot in the script.
using UnityEngine;
using System.Collections;
using Valve.VR;
public class myTouchpad : MonoBehaviour
{
public GameObject player;
SteamVR_Controller.Device device;
SteamVR_TrackedObject controller;
Vector2 touchpad;
private float sensitivityX = 1.5F;
private Vector3 playerPos;
void Start()
{
controller = gameObject.GetComponent<SteamVR_TrackedObject>();
}
// Update is called once per frame
void Update()
{
device = SteamVR_Controller.Input((int)controller.index);
//If finger is on touchpad
if (device.GetTouch(SteamVR_Controller.ButtonMask.Touchpad))
{
//Read the touchpad values
touchpad = device.GetAxis(EVRButtonId.k_EButton_SteamVR_Touchpad);
// Handle movement via touchpad
if (touchpad.y > 0.2f || touchpad.y < -0.2f) {
// Move Forward
player.transform.position -= player.transform.forward * Time.deltaTime * (touchpad.y * 5f);
// Adjust height to terrain height at player positin
playerPos = player.transform.position;
playerPos.y = Terrain.activeTerrain.SampleHeight (player.transform.position);
player.transform.position = playerPos;
}
// handle rotation via touchpad
if (touchpad.x > 0.3f || touchpad.x < -0.3f) {
player.transform.Rotate (0, touchpad.x * sensitivityX, 0);
}
//Debug.Log ("Touchpad X = " + touchpad.x + " : Touchpad Y = " + touchpad.y);
}
}
}
Bingo you can walk around, there are plenty of teleport scripts available for the Vive so I'll not cover that (this is an Elite forum!). The Rift will be similar but we'll need to wait for the controllers to turn up.
Incidentally you can't strafe in that script it simply turns and moves forwards and backwards but you could implement strafe by using the trigger or the other touchpad. I don't find it nausea inducing but then that's just me and you can look around whilst moving which may well trigger nausea for those that suffer.
I still think an option in the menu for navigation is the way to go though if you're developing a nascent technology like VR, give people the choice and see what works.
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I have even demoed to employees of a large UK game software & peripheral distribution company (yeah I never paid for any console games sometime ago). The people that test my setup get to play whatever they want and for as long as they want unless I'm pushed for time. Yeah I demoed those titles, along with Alien Isolation, Dying Light and even Skyrim via injectors. Other than the two, everyone was blown away - even in the DK1 days.
An no, I am not in the habit of lying. I just leave people to it and then ask them how they found it when they're done. No "you may get sick" warnings before they start, nothing. I leave it to the end user to form an opinion and try my best not to impose mine on them.
This is where I stand also. 100% agree - options are what we need not enforced comfort modes.
Numbers are racking up guys, 03 - 02 to the non sim sickers, that 90% is moving further and further away
just kidding.
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Okay, fair enough. I find it strange then - it's not like the vestibular disconnect for turning/strafing is an unknown thing so not sure why all the people who tried my DK2/CV1 suffer from this, and very few who tried yours did. Bizarre. I have a decent spec PC (i7 5820/GTX 980) and it's always hit the 75 (DK2) and 90 (CV1) refresh rates so it's not that. :S
But yeah, multiple solutions in software make sense - free movement, teleport, stick the person in a vehicle, etc. Not sure how that's going to work in multiplayer though.
The more I think about the touchpad on the Vive the more genius of innovation it is. Think about the demo where it suddenly becomes 4 extra buttons. Combined with the visuals of VR they've effectively added an unlimited number of addition controls. Dev's (of which I'm just a hobbyist) really can let their imagination run wild with this thing.
You could have dragable boxes with closed fist drag or open hand push icons on the controller. Four fast select spell cast/action buttons. Movement (as per my script), scroll through text, flip pages of a book, use it to tab in menus. Then we've got 2 pointer devices as well. Ah man I'm going to have to stop now! My head's just full of so many ideas for this thing. It really is a very, very clever device.
[wacky] [hotas]
Want Options? That there controller will give anyone with even a smidgen of imagination crazy levels of new gameplay, mix it in with the interactivity with the virtual world and we live in exciting times.
I really hope Oculus do something clever with their controller, right now that Vive controller is a huge positive for HTC, yes the CV1 has benefits as well but the lighter weight and headphones are going to need to be pretty significant improvements for it to eclipse the touchpad alone (still waiting for my CV1 so can't tell how they impact yet).
Still, like I said, exciting times. [up]
Crazy - exactly the same specs as me!