A Game At Odds with Itself and Why

[clavain]

C
Why do people confuse things that were clearly stated as being ideas and concepts and NOT promised to be in the game for promises? I honestly don't have a clue on that one, you tell me since you seem to be one of the folks who did that.

Why did you confuse things constantly stated to be ideas and concepts and not promised features for promised features?

Yes, must be my mistake. Couldn't be anything to do with statements like "Here for your perusal is our finalized rules-set for how we're going to make shields work." for example:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5701

or "Here is the hyperspace rules set that we've agreed on" https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=5443

Those are incredibly unclear and vague statements that were clearly just design proposals for discussion that would never be implemented.

 

[Infidel Deity]

It is human nature to get bored.

So true!
And when I get bored, I play Elite Dangerous.
Very nice!

 

[Derath]

Yeah they drastically simplified almost everything they initially said, many of the systems suffer for this because they are just too simple. I've never actually read the piece about shields before but its already so much better than what we got, In many ways Elite feels like it doesn't want to behave like an arcade game, but has all the simplicity of one I mean If i take the systems here and put them in rebel galaxy they really aren't any different, though I probably enjoy combat more in rebel galaxy even on a 2d plane.

 

[Kristov]

"Strawman" the go-to phrase... 'Never said you get bored, did I, huh? No.

You said, and I quote...

Fair enough. I'll accept making ED 'not boring' then, as a compromise.

It's boring to you, that's a constant refrain from you in threads all over, but that's about all you say, it's boring. Ok, so you are bored, what will change that for you? No input but 'it's boring' is absolutely useless, that's whining to whine and that's all it is.

Not boring for you (fallen into your own trap). Boring for many others after the repetitive grind of the nth thousandth scan or jump or POI or *SS or whatever. See the threads I linked above if you don't believe me. It does not look like there are many explorers on the exploration forum saying that it is fine as is.

What trap did I fall into? I don't find it boring after thousands upon thousands of times doing it, that's ME, and I said that no less. You give links where people are whining and people are making suggestions, so what, the forums are full of them. There's actually a section of the forums specifically for them, where none of the suggestions you linked are....wonder why they didn't get attention?

I said I'd love to see more things to do, I've made suggestions about it myself, which I even mentioned and covered one of them briefly. You want to make me out to be against this, you are sadly mistaken, but I'm not going to whine and cry when things I want done don't happen.

 

[clavain]

You said, and I quote...



It's boring to you, that's a constant refrain from you in threads all over, but that's about all you say, it's boring. Ok, so you are bored, what will change that for you? No input but 'it's boring' is absolutely useless, that's whining to whine and that's all it is.



What trap did I fall into? I don't find it boring after thousands upon thousands of times doing it, that's ME, and I said that no less. You give links where people are whining and people are making suggestions, so what, the forums are full of them. There's actually a section of the forums specifically for them, where none of the suggestions you linked are....wonder why they didn't get attention?

I said I'd love to see more things to do, I've made suggestions about it myself, which I even mentioned and covered one of them briefly. You want to make me out to be against this, you are sadly mistaken, but I'm not going to whine and cry when things I want done don't happen.

And congratulations! We have an ignore list winner, as it clear you are incapable of reasonable discussion.

 

[Kubicide]

Depressing when looking back at the design docs and threads. Look at all the features that were planned to be in the game - look at all the content that never made it in. In the examples posted above you can quickly count 20 or so features that are totally absent today just from these two examples. Even the second line on the shields: zones, remember zones and remember in beta when FDev suddenly says they're not going to support them due to time constraints? Lol, okay, it has been 14 months now since release. How much more time do they need for this specific feature? Oh yeah, it's gone for good just like many of the other planned features for this game.

Folks can theory-craft their own understandings of what these design docs were meant to be. But everyone knows for a fact they described what was intended to be in the game. And so much is missing, plain and simple. FDev shifted their sites on making quick bucks from Xbox, Mac releases and the bizarre arcade CQC minigame, and we will never see the Elite game we pledged or bought into.

 

[Sysmon]

Yes, must be my mistake. Couldn't be anything to do with statements like "Here for your perusal is our finalized rules-set for how we're going to make shields work."

I think you are missing the point of the process: That statement refers to what the design team was ready to go forward with. Of course it is vague, and of course it was bound to change...

S

 

[Kristov]

Depressing when looking back at the design docs and threads. Look at all the features that were planned to be in the game - look at all the content that never made it in. In the examples posted above you can quickly count 20 or so features that are totally absent today just from these two examples. Even the second line on the shields: zones, remember zones and remember in beta when FDev suddenly says they're not going to support them due to time constraints? Lol, okay, it has been 14 months now since release. How much more time do they need for this specific feature? Oh yeah, it's gone for good just like many of the other planned features for this game.

Folks can theory-craft their own understandings of what these design docs were meant to be. But everyone knows for a fact they described what was intended to be in the game. And so much is missing, plain and simple. FDev shifted their sites on making quick bucks from Xbox, Mac releases and the bizarre arcade CQC minigame, and we will never see the Elite game we pledged or bought into.

Ok, not going to support them due to time constraints means they won't be done, not that they'll be done later on when time isn't a factor, as that would be stated as 'we're not going to do the zones now due to time constraints but we will add them in later as time allows'. Not understanding that simple distinction is part of why you also think that things presented as possible ideas, features and concepts were promised to be ingame when they were just possible ideas, features and concepts.

There's no theory crafting on what the DD's were and are, FD states it multiple times throughout them, ideas, concepts, things they'd like to do, not promises, not set in stone(repeated a LOT). Some of them are great, I'd love to see them make it into the game, but since they were blue skying with them, I'm not going to be upset if they don't ever get done, they aren't promised features and mechanics. Everyone does NOT know for a fact that those things were intended to be in the game, because they weren't, that is the actual fact. Misreading, miscomprehension, misunderstanding, whatever it is that makes you think things constantly stated as NOT being set in stone are in fact set in stone, that's on you, you blinded yourself there to the facts.

Promised features and mechanics not making it, those I'll get upset about, those I'll complain about, so should everyone else, because it's right to complain about promised features and mechanics not being delivered. Getting upset and demanding that they put in things they specifically state aren't set in stone, well...

My hair is almost to my waist due to a promise to my daughter 20 years ago to never cut it again without her permission, as I happen to take promises quite seriously. Me not getting her a dolphin for her 8th birthday on the other hand, that was never something I promised to do, that was simply something I said would be cool, and she understands the difference and doesn't give me grief for never getting her a dolphin. You are getting upset for FD not getting you a dolphin.

 

[Kubicide]

Ok, not going to support them due to time constraints means they won't be done, not that they'll be done later on when time isn't a factor, as that would be stated as 'we're not going to do the zones now due to time constraints but we will add them in later as time allows'. Not understanding that simple distinction is part of why you also think that things presented as possible ideas, features and concepts were promised to be ingame when they were just possible ideas, features and concepts.

There's no theory crafting on what the DD's were and are, FD states it multiple times throughout them, ideas, concepts, things they'd like to do, not promises, not set in stone(repeated a LOT). Some of them are great, I'd love to see them make it into the game, but since they were blue skying with them, I'm not going to be upset if they don't ever get done, they aren't promised features and mechanics. Everyone does NOT know for a fact that those things were intended to be in the game, because they weren't, that is the actual fact. Misreading, miscomprehension, misunderstanding, whatever it is that makes you think things constantly stated as NOT being set in stone are in fact set in stone, that's on you, you blinded yourself there to the facts.

Promised features and mechanics not making it, those I'll get upset about, those I'll complain about, so should everyone else, because it's right to complain about promised features and mechanics not being delivered. Getting upset and demanding that they put in things they specifically state aren't set in stone, well...

My hair is almost to my waist due to a promise to my daughter 20 years ago to never cut it again without her permission, as I happen to take promises quite seriously. Me not getting her a dolphin for her 8th birthday on the other hand, that was never something I promised to do, that was simply something I said would be cool, and she understands the difference and doesn't give me grief for never getting her a dolphin. You are getting upset for FD not getting you a dolphin.

Again, it's depressing to read all the design docs and be reminded of all the features and content that was planned for this game. FDev have changed plans and they are not adding the features they stated they would do in the posts they made during the design phase of the project. It's that simple. The game is at odds with itself. It's messed up pretty bad.

 

[dxm55]

I look at the game and I see not only a game at odds with itself (in some aspects), but also a community fractured and at odds with itself.


It's pretty clear that the PVE/PVP community just don't see eye to eye and do not belong in the same place or BGS.
"Play the game as you like", so goes the spirit of the game.

But that isn't true is it?


PVE players in Open say that they can't play the game as they like because they get attacked/pirated by PVP players.
They don't want non-consensual PVP, and let's be honest, are likely to not consent to 99% of PVP encounters anyway, so let's just say no PVP.
And we have the recent incident, where PVE players in their own Group were infiltrated and attacked by PVP players.
- So here we have PVP players forcing PVE players to play the game their way


Likewise the revenge of PVE players against the offending PVP infiltrators. They PVE-undermine the faction from the relative safety of Solo or Group mode. But perhaps that's just justice or karma talking, so maybe it's well deserved.

But let's look in general, what if, a pure PVE group attacks the faction HQ of a faction that plays both PVE and PVP?
The PVP oriented players in that faction will have no other option but to grind back against the underminers, instead of doing what they can also do, and that is to engage them in combat.
- And so now PVE players are giving PVP players no options but to play the game their way


Then we have the second incident, where the PVP player within said PVE group defends his faction by engaging and destroying a PVE player who was undermining his faction's space.
- Here's the conundrum. A PVP player, defending his in-game interests (not griefing), but in a PVE group (which is illegal by the group's rules)


It's pretty clear that you can't reconcile the two play styles and audiences. Different modes affecting the same universe? Just a social issue waiting to happen. They can't coexist.



Maybe the game should have separate BGS'es for the Solo/Group/PVE-only players, where Open-PVE can have special rules like no player-to-player damage.... while Open remains the full-monty anything-goes free-for-all that it should be.

That way the 2 types of players will never ever meet and conflict.


Truth be told, a true Open mode really needs a single persistent universe/server for a true PVE/P comprehensive experience.... but we know that's not likely to happen because FD doesn't want to invest in that. (read as: cheaper to run P2P)

 

[Cosmos]

I think the OP makes some fair points.. This time last year things were far worse and I really felt some at FD were delusional about the state of the game at release 1.0. Its an encourging sign David is saying they got it wrong on somethings, although I'd imagine he has to be careful what he says. I've had lots of fun with ED over the years but frustrations too because there is a big difference to what I was sold in KS to what the reality is. The game does somethings incredibly well and others very poorly

Relatively its still early days yet, its only been out just over a year. Its still a good game and I've enjoyed Horizons so far, time will tell and I think we can make a better judgement on this when the next installment arrives in Engineers.

 

[Ignition]

Ok, not going to support them due to time constraints means they won't be done, not that they'll be done later on when time isn't a factor, as that would be stated as 'we're not going to do the zones now due to time constraints but we will add them in later as time allows'. Not understanding that simple distinction is part of why you also think that things presented as possible ideas, features and concepts were promised to be ingame when they were just possible ideas, features and concepts.

There's no theory crafting on what the DD's were and are, FD states it multiple times throughout them, ideas, concepts, things they'd like to do, not promises, not set in stone(repeated a LOT). Some of them are great, I'd love to see them make it into the game, but since they were blue skying with them, I'm not going to be upset if they don't ever get done, they aren't promised features and mechanics. Everyone does NOT know for a fact that those things were intended to be in the game, because they weren't, that is the actual fact. Misreading, miscomprehension, misunderstanding, whatever it is that makes you think things constantly stated as NOT being set in stone are in fact set in stone, that's on you, you blinded yourself there to the facts.

Promised features and mechanics not making it, those I'll get upset about, those I'll complain about, so should everyone else, because it's right to complain about promised features and mechanics not being delivered. Getting upset and demanding that they put in things they specifically state aren't set in stone, well...

My hair is almost to my waist due to a promise to my daughter 20 years ago to never cut it again without her permission, as I happen to take promises quite seriously. Me not getting her a dolphin for her 8th birthday on the other hand, that was never something I promised to do, that was simply something I said would be cool, and she understands the difference and doesn't give me grief for never getting her a dolphin. You are getting upset for FD not getting you a dolphin.

If what you say is true then FD laughed at all their customers who participated in the DDF because it was useless and it was just a marketing action (which it was succesful with me and many others).

What we have now in exploration and mining is not even near a start of this:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6418
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7007

IF FD says the mechanics are fine like they said then they don't care about the very basics of the discussions of the game, they don't care about all those people who backed the game. But they seem to care about the xbox giving them a very easy way to play the game with very simplistic mechanics.

Elite Dangerous wants to be everything but also fails at everything. Its a PC game, XBOX game, MAC game, has an arena, you can mine, trade, fight, explore, Powerplay like Factional warfare from EVE, planets, gameplay for 10 yr old kids. But ALL THIS feels like a joke, like playing with placeholders all the time and a demo of the engine. This happens when you want to attract a wide market in a very short time. Elite is everything but has nothing in it.

 

[Geezer32]

Given that we have autopilots and people, it would be easy to hire someone to deliver a ship .

Why need people at all. My ship has a clever on-board computer already, why can't it just autopilot itself back to me?

Let's say that to be able to plot the route, the nav computer needs full system data from A - B so there could be a cost to purchase any missing nav data between the points.

If it already knows all the system data because you've already scanned it then no cost. The system would only work in the bubble where the option to purchase system data already exists.

 

[Jaeger]

What an excellent post. I often wonder what the game would be like with Ian Bell making design decisions.

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they don't care about all those people who backed the game. But they seem to care about the xbox giving them a very easy way to play the game with very simplistic mechanics.

The writing was on the wall when the company was floated during development. Any hopes we had for a modern incarnation that would do the original Elite justice died when ED became a cash cow for short term gains. Shareholders need good quarterly reports.

 

[Don_Von_Hulio]

Amen. I remember that being said very early on and it was scoffed at. But it was, and is, true.

+1 rep.

I remember looking at a thread yesterday talking about this. Didnt it basically flop?

 

[Cynaqq]

What an excellent post. I often wonder what the game would be like with Ian Bell making design decisions.

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The writing was on the wall when the company was floated during development. Any hopes we had for a modern incarnation that would do the original Elite justice died when ED became a cash cow for short term gains. Shareholders need good quarterly reports.

Amen. I remember that being said very early on and it was scoffed at. But it was, and is, true.

+1 rep.

There's no such thing as a cash cow for short term gains. Cash cow and short term gains are contradictory terms. f2p p2w games or subscription based MMORPGs are cash cows. One time purchase games by definition, can't be cash cows because you can't keep milking them. You sell one and if you disappoint, you don't sell again. You can use a one time purchase game for short term gains, I'll give you that but then, you try to hype it up as much as you can, cash in the initial profits and shut down the studio instead of trying to support an online game long term, which is something will constantly cost you money which you won't have after your profit dries up.

Anyway, it's nice seeing little bashing CJs like this one, since only people and products with character attract this much active hate and love.

 

[matemaster]

What we have now in exploration and mining is not even near a start of this:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=6418
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=7007

Thanks for this, have some rep
I am not beta nor kickstarter so I didnt had information about game features in that time
After reading this I have feeling that I am playing completly different game...

 

[Cynaqq]

Thanks for this, have some rep
I am not beta nor kickstarter so I didnt had information about game features in that time
After reading this I have feeling that I am playing completly different game...

Of course you are. You are comparing ideas/fantasies describing a matured game after development ended with the state of an ongoing development project in its second year after public release. As long as armchair critiques keep repeating this same old argument from the DDA/DDF, I'll keep repeating the same old argument from ongoing software development. We'll see in time which one holds more water. I'm pretty confident to say the least.

EDIT: Important bit to add. Game development always works like this. Programmers, artists and designers gather in a room and start throwing around ideas starting from over the top and finish the meeting with ideas even higher up. Then, in subsequent meetings, these ideas get scaled down into a manageable size, most of them discarded for good. A good number of those not discarded still will not make it into the game before many more, solid ideas get implemented. These are ranked in a technical way to maximise efficiency, not by the scale of 'coolness'. The most fundamental work always get top priority and fluff and 'cool' stuff always get the bottom of the list.

What's different with ED is that they let the customers see too much of the initial design process, something which the public is not familiar with, and now they are kinda paying the price of being overly trusting of the comprehension abilities of their backers. I'm sure there are people in there going 'told you so' to the person in charge of that decision to have a DDF with the backers.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=154457
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=171023

Hey, there's that white knight fanboi who thinks the game is perfect.

What an idiot

 

[KING5TON]

Regards the DDF
Did you know it cost £300 to get access.
£100 more than the previous tier which was Alpha access.

It was also originally called the Design Decision Forurm which FD sneakily renamed the Design Discussion Forum, after they had all the money of course.

I know if I had stumped up £300 for access and the promise of what it was I'd be mighty annoyed that the things in there were just pie in the sky ideas that the developer is never going to put in the game. How much of people's time on top of the cost did they waste with it?

The game as it is now and the game pitched at kickstarter and beyond to get our money are not similar enough for my liking. I wanted the game that was pitched, the current game needs to move towards this instead of things like CQC and PP that aren't moving towards it and not providing a suitable alternative for what they aren't adding.