A Long Post on Lighting Issues

[Ninjitsu]

@sallymorganmoore @Arthur Tolmie @Zac Cocken i know you're all swamped with stuff but I'll try and make this worth your while. I really want to go back to Odyssey but fact of the matter is that Horizons just does lighting in space better at the moment. This post should hopefully end up pointing out where the issues are in a consolidated way, although much has already been said about this everywhere else.

So first, the issues from the feedback tracker:

1. Illumination of background planets is tied to illumination of player ship by the illuminating star https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/41371[aka incorrect occlusion]
   1. Duplicate issue created: https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/43184
2. Incorrect brightness/contrast adjustment depending on angle between camera, ship and star https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/41372[aka faux-HDR effect]
   1. Very similar and likely duplicate: https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/42565
   2. Exposure adjustment when standing in shadow at night time is over darkening the screen. https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/26848 [expired]
3. Flickering shadows on planetary surfaces https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/41717 [also on and around ships, in hangars, etc.]
4. Gamma balance is off which causes details in space to be lost https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/42493
5. Outside lighting still shines inside FC https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/43147 [i have seen this in station hangars too, but from passing by ships]
6. Station lighting is still too bright in places https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/42876 [seriously axe the faux-HDR effect, it will solve/reduce a lot of issues]
7. Broken Atmospheric Lighting https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/42691
8. Lighting: windows at a station flicker every second https://issues.frontierstore.net/issue-detail/42519 [lacking media evidence but i may have observed it at some point too]

There are scores of others, mostly expired. Just searching for "lighting", "gamma", "contrast", "brightness", "exposure" on the issue tracker will turn up results.

Next, some forum posts created at various points over the last 6 months:

1. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/edo-lighting-while-in-space.584867/
2. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...t-surfaces-post-patch-6-is-it-just-me.587916/
3. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/focused-feedback-thread-cockpit-brightness.588309/
4. https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threads/more-fixes-to-lighting-needed.587128/

Probably dozens more.

And now some fresh media content. First, consider these two recordings of space CZs in the Thauts system. It's the same High CZ. One run is recorded in Horizons, then is in Odyssey. This is the complete run from the station, to the CZ, and back to the station.

Horizons:

Source: https://youtu.be/79xEqqtt_U8


Now Odyssey:

Source: https://youtu.be/cD3XndrSf5o


Gamma Settings:

Spoiler: Horizons gamma settings

Spoiler: Odyssey gamma settings

Notable differences:

1. Station hangar departure: brightness is more, colour tones are different.
2. Cockpit brightness is more in odyssey, while in horizons it reacts more to ambient light
3. Shadows flicker on the ship in odyssety
4. Deep space objects like nebulae are much darker when viewed from teh cockpit in odyssey
5. CZ is in general much less vibrant and well lit in odyssey
   1. Engine exhaust is more prominent and visibly clearer in horizons. in Odyssey they're just dark...
   2. Ships are more visible in horizons. In odyssey you can't see them properly unless the star is in or near the visible scene, or directly behind the player. When ships are in a dark region of the scene they're hard to see.
6. Bloom of projectile colours is much more in odyssey, making the scene hard to read
7. Colours and brightness of projectiles and lasers of other ships are easier to see in odyssey
8. Brightness of background planets and stars in the scene varies a lot more in odyssey. In horizons they're pretty much constant.
   1. Stars and skybox are more well defined in horizons in general
9. The halo around the star is much nicer in horizons, in odyssey there is no halo
10. The colour and intensity of light incident on the ship is different in odyssey, where it looks more dull unless pointed directly at the star. In horizons it is consistent. While this is apparent all throughout while in the cockpit, set the horizons vid at 24:00 and odyssey vid at 31:00 to see this very clearly.
11. Shadow flickering on the corvette's nose in odyssey while in cockpit. When in 3rd person view (e.g. 32 mins onward) you can see shadows load in and load out and generally behave badly and incorrectly.
12. Aliasing is worse in odyssey
13. Odyssey makes the hull bloomier/more reflective whereas in Horizons the paint is matte.
14. Compare the approach to the station around 27 min (horizons) and 34 mins (odyssey. Look at the visible stars in the background and note the difference.
15. Differences in the supercruise trails. In odyssey they are hardly visible (but there are a couple on approach, see if you can spot them). In horizons they are very visible and very pretty.
16. The station looks considerably darker in odyssey when looking right at it, although the sun looks like it's starting to set.
17. odyssey: Note that the milky way dims and brightness aggressively if the station is in view.
18. odyssey: station interior is very bright, almost washed out.
19. UI takes time to load in odyssey, because it takes too long trying to load the portrait thumbnails.
20. Notice how shadows on the pad appear and disappear even when they shouldn't. (~39 mins)
21. [edit]: Performance in odyssey was way worse, as might be apparent in either video. i was doing around 40-50 fps in the CZ and 40-55 fps in and around the station. This was with update 6, update 7 made the station performance better, haven't played a CZ since.
    1. Horizons meanwhile did a solid 60 throughout (nvidia adaptive vsync) with minor drops to 55-ish on a couple of occasions.

Images:
Re: incorrect occlusion

Horizons

And now Odyssey

Now these rings are in Horizons.

In odyssey, these rings would have been completely black.

A lot of these issues are caused by the auto-HDR effect. This makes the cockpit brightness increases extremely detrimental to the space lighting. For example:

Note how dark the planet is, and how dim the star is. The primary white star is slightly to the left of the right hand HUD bracket.

When you go to third person, you see more accurate lighting:

The older unmodified horizons cockpits suffer while in odyssey. Looking at bright objects makes them completely black.

Continuing the theme of HDR issues, the OG scene that made me realise what was going on:

When looking at the star, the ring is well lit, as it should be.

When looking away from the star, the game pretends there is a brown dwarf in the system instead...

 

[Lyamecron]

Some more images highlighting the HDR/exposure issue: (ALL Odyssey, only difference is that I am looking past the dashboard)

The dashboard seems to blind you, gamma adjustment appears to be too sensitive.

As for broken atmospheric lighting, it is really strange that with even the most colorful atmospheres, the only kind of light that seems to reach the surface is white light. The terrain looks pretty "washed out" (especially bad on ammonia worlds). I imagine that there should at least be a tint of the atmospheric color being represented in the color of the lighting.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Some more images highlighting the HDR/exposure issue: (ALL Odyssey, only difference is that I am looking past the dashboard)

The dashboard seems to blind you, gamma adjustment appears to be too sensitive.

As for broken atmospheric lighting, it is really strange that with even the most colorful atmospheres, the only kind of light that seems to reach the surface is white light. The terrain looks pretty "washed out" (especially bad on ammonia worlds). I imagine that there should at least be a tint of the atmospheric color being represented in the color of the lighting.

You know what annoys me about your pictures the most?

That FDev explicitly mentioned they fixed lighting around FC landing pads, and still seeing the same magical blue light source cropping up (presuming your images are from the current version, but I've checked myself before and it looks like they are).

It's this kinda stuff that makes me wonder if they actually have it in them to fix the more glaring (pun intended) lighting issues.

 

[Lyamecron]

You know what annoys me about your pictures the most?

That FDev explicitly mentioned they fixed lighting around FC landing pads, and still seeing the same magical blue light source cropping up (presuming your images are from the current version, but I've checked myself before and it looks like they are).

It's this kinda stuff that makes me wonder if they actually have it in them to fix the more glaring (pun intended) lighting issues.

Jupp, they are all from post Update 7. Do you mean the landing pad indicator? If so then yes, it looks horrible with everything around it being pitch black, but if the gamma was to be adjusted like in the picture below - I believe it would look much better and much more in-line with the rest.

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Jupp, they are all from post Update 7. Do you mean the landing pad indicator? If so then yes, it looks horrible with everything around it being pitch black, but if the gamma was to be adjusted like the picture below - I believe it would look much better and much more in-line with the rest.

It's those blue lights that appear on each pad, but when you fly past them they shift and I can't figure out what/where the light source is. Probably because there isn't one.

But in terms of the gamma/contrast autoadjustment, I agree it's really annoying, and it bugged me from the beginning - and in most cases it doesn't even make sense how it's trying to simulate your eyes getting used to changes in light conditions. I think they put it in for on-foot environments, but did a half baked job when applying it to the rest of the game. It really takes me out of the game and it always feels even in bright sunlight things are still too dark. Going back to Horizons and everything looks so much better, and consistent.

 

[Northpin]

@sallymorganmoore @Arthur Tolmie @Zac Cocken i know you're all swamped with stuff but I'll try and make this worth your while.

Brilliant post. Thank you.

I can confirm each of the issues mentioned, including the Gamma setting differences between EDO and Horizons (i have about the same gamma settings)
My setup: Laptop Asus G733QS, Ryzen 9 5900HX, RTX3080/16g, 32GB ram.

 

[Lyamecron]

It's those blue lights that appear on each pad, but when you fly past them they shift and I can't figure out what/where the light source is. Probably because there isn't one.

But in terms of the gamma/contrast autoadjustment, I agree it's really annoying, and it bugged me from the beginning - and in most cases it doesn't even make sense how it's trying to simulate your eyes getting used to changes in light conditions. I think they put it in for on-foot environments, but did a half baked job when applying it to the rest of the game. It really takes me out of the game and it always feels even in bright sunlight things are still too dark. Going back to Horizons and everything looks so much better, and consistent.

I think that for on-foot it is alright, but in ships and SRVs it has to go. It is (in a way) too realistic. You cant adjust to the dark backdrop of space when being blinded by your dashboard all the time. Either the dashboard would have to be turned off, or everything else would have to be made a lot brighter. Since both options are a bandaid and not a solution, why not removing the auto-adjustment from ships and srvs alltogether and having it like in horizons where everything looked nice?

 

[Agony_Aunt]

And the award for the most accurate thread title goes to....

 

[Deleted member 182079]

I think that for on-foot it is alright, but in ships and SRVs it has to go. It is (in a way) too realistic. You cant adjust to the dark backdrop of space when being blinded by your dashboard all the time. Either the dashboard would have to be turned off, or everything else would have to be made a lot brighter. Since both options are a bandaid and not a solution, why not removing the auto-adjustment from ships and srvs alltogether and having it like in horizons where everything looked nice?

Yeah the effect is used in other games, and while I'm never really a fan of it (for example I dislike the auto-contrast setting on TVs as well, gets disabled straightaway) I can tolerate it if it's used subtly enough. Elite's version is the equivalent of a constant scream when you'd want a short whisper.

As for "why not simply disable it in ships/SRVs" - probably for the same reason that TrackIR doesn't get auto-disabled when on-foot, while it is in fact done when enabling the SRV turret... so... yeah. Reasons.

 

[CMDR Sheehy]

There is a point that the Physical Monitor Gamma and Brightness requirements differ from both Games - so trying to post screen shots when switching from Horizons to Odyssey can be misleading. For example - a lot of posts with the cockpit blacked out cannot be replicated when the screen is adjusted to match Odyssey's requirements. If you use the same settings for both games, you will end up with these horrible contrasts.

I don't flip flop between the two and rarely have these issues to the scale that they are presented here.

 

[HRDiagram]

And the award for the most accurate thread title goes to....

I would rather change the title to:

A Comprehensive, Factual and well laid out Compendium on Lighting Issues​

 

[jafergon]

To be honest, I think the Cobra Engine is getting old and what is needed is a next gen render engine......

 

[Old Duck]

@sallymorganmoore @Arthur Tolmie @Zac Cocken i know you're all swamped with stuff but I'll try and make this worth your while. I really want to go back to Odyssey but fact of the matter is that Horizons just does lighting in space better at the moment.

The new render pipeline (of which lighting plays a very strong role) is one of the primary reasons I'm avoiding Odyssey. Even if Frontier does fix performance, I'll continue to avoid it for this reason alone. Not that Horizons is perfect, but I was able to make it close to perfect (for me) with some shader tweaks. I don't think Odyssey will be as easy to "correct".

The fact that Frontier considers lighting "working as intended" is disheartening. It tells me that what we see as bugs or design flaws, the developers see as features. I just hope that Horizons is allowed to keep the "old" system, which, like you, I feel is superior.

 

[Pigletslastand]

Wow OP thanks so much for all this hard work! Well done, nicely laid out. Agree with almost everything you posted up there

 

[HRDiagram]

The fact that Frontier considers lighting "working as intended" is disheartening.

Whilst I have found that disheartening as well, I believe their intent was quite different and was not to consider the first item on the list to be resolved. Far from that, in fact.
Calling it "lighting issues" is as generic as saying "this game is in a poor state": correct, perhaps, but not specific enough to tackle the single issues, and from Arf's words it is my understanding that they would rather prefer separate tickets to be raised for separate problems, in order to track them better.

This is why I find the OP very useful: there are a number of problems that, even though they can be classified as "lighting issues" come from very different sources, possibly, and each of them could require its own line of enquiry.

I would do the same if I were in their position (and as a matter of fact, it is what I do when I do problem solving).

 

[Deleted member 182079]

Whilst I have found that disheartening as well, I believe their intent was quite different and was not to consider the first item on the list to be resolved. Far from that, in fact.
Calling it "lighting issues" is as generic as saying "this game is in a poor state": correct, perhaps, but not specific enough to tackle the single issues, and from Arf's words it is my understanding that they would rather prefer separate tickets to be raised for separate problems, in order to track them better.

This is why I find the OP very useful: there are a number of problems that, even though they can be classified as "lighting issues" come from very different sources, possibly, and each of them could require its own line of enquiry.

I would do the same if I were in their position (and as a matter of fact, it is what I do when I do problem solving).

Part of me would love to ask Frontier straight out - the change in visual style/lighting, compared to Horizons - was that intentional, or a side-effect of PBR and trying to get the lighting right planetside first and foremost?

The other part of me thinks it's probably best to not know the answer.

 

[HRDiagram]

I often wonder the same, and similarly for some UI choices.

 

[Old Duck]

Part of me would love to ask Frontier straight out - the change in visual style/lighting, compared to Horizons - was that intentional, or a side-effect of PBR and trying to get the lighting right planetside first and foremost?

One of the problems I have with this new PBR system is that it seems to give very little in regards to visual improvements compared to the major hit in performance that it has contributed to. Personally I think Frontier should have just stuck with Horizon's lighting / texture rendering system. If they wanted to implement an entirely new and different rendering system, they should have saved that for an entirely new game (which in many ways Odyssey feels like anyway). Horizons might not be the best graphics out there, but it made up for it with pretty amazing performance, something I've always been impressed with until Odyssey released. As a VR player, I'll take "not quite PBR but pretty darn good nonetheless" over Odyssey's "Slightly better, sometimes way worse, and definitely performance murdering" PBR system.

But what's done is done. I'll just keep my fingers crossed that this PBR never gets back-ported into Horizons, unless Frontier can perform a bonafide miracle and make it both look and perform just as good if not better than Horizons.

 

[Frop]

But in terms of the gamma/contrast autoadjustment, I agree it's really annoying, and it bugged me from the beginning - and in most cases it doesn't even make sense how it's trying to simulate your eyes getting used to changes in light conditions. I think they put it in for on-foot environments, but did a half baked job when applying it to the rest of the game. It really takes me out of the game and it always feels even in bright sunlight things are still too dark. Going back to Horizons and everything looks so much better, and consistent.

I doubt they put it in to simulate our eyes adjusting to light levels, I'd wager they're in there to mitigate some of the contrast issues. Horizons might look a bit washed out compared to Odyssey, but I agree that the overall experience is much, much more pleasant and strains my eyes significantly less.

 

[Gully Foyle]

I had no idea they were using auto HDR contrast.
Could be tested with a switch in settings?