A Message To Elite Dangerous Developers

Fair comment that and yeah, a lot of us have done something similar.

There's a post from me on here somewhere from ages ago commenting on what a pain in the butt it is to plot your course, undock and discover your jump point is obscured and then have to unselect it and select either something that isn't obscured, or nothing, just so you can get into supercruise to fly round the obstacle, before re-selecting your jump out point.

Obviously someone helpfully mentioned that there are actually two separate key bindings available, one for 'engage SC' and one for 'jump'. I'd been playing for maybe a year at that point. :D

In my defence, I'm as sure as I can be that they're both mapped to the same key by default which is exactly why it had never occurred to me - I'd never even looked for separate bindings because nothing prompted that they existed. The point though is that often when you look at something in the game and think 'this is really dumb' the problem is between chair and keyboard. Not all the time obviously, some stuff is in fact really dumb, but enough times that now I will always ask whether I'm missing something first.
Out of rep, so have some virtual +rep.

I had the same problem myself. I didn't even know the forums existed for a long time, so eventually figured it out in game, but not before a bit of internal moaning that there wasn't an option to just go to supercruise. (Eventually, I think I actually thought "hold on, maybe there is. I'll check the control options and see what I can find", and sure enough there it was.) Same problem - I jumped to a conclusion, thought the game was being stupid, but I was completely wrong.

In both our defences, it's definitely just one button (I happened to looking at controls recently). It's 'Activate FSD' or words to that effect. There's separate bindings to that available for both 'Activate Hyperdrive' and 'Activate SuperCruise' (I'm paraphrasing slightly as I can't remember the exact wording).

And, yeah completely agree, always best to ask if you're missing something first.
 
I felt that Frontier: Elite 2 was an improvement over the original. It had everything I liked from the original, added a much more realistic galaxy, there were lots of different ships you could modify and fly, and I liked the more realistic flight model. First Encounters, OTOH, I never really got into, primarily because I felt it didn't bring in anything new to the table, and there were a LOT of interesting games on the market. I was also just starting to get into MUDs, though AOLs hourly rates combined with my limited budget meant I didn't spend too much time online.

You make a lot of good points. Maybe I've been a little unfair to 2&3. I guess it's really actually the combat mechanics side of things that I hated in 2 & 3. I loved the combat mechanics in Elite, and found that side of things virtually unplayable in 2&3 in comparison. You're right though, 2 did bring in a lot of good things which I did enjoy, even the non-combat flight mechanics. :) I guess it speaks for how vehemently I disliked the combat mechanics, that it overwhelms all the good points in the game when I think about. It was those combat mechanics that eventually lead to me stopping playing 2 and barely touching 3.
 
... what you may lose in gross profit per ton, you make up in sheer volume of trades.

Um, duh? That's literally the only way you CAN make it up, is by sheer volume when you're making trades at less than a *quarter* of the value you could be.

And when you say this, I chuckled:
Not to mention that I find uncertainty to be fun. The thrill of victory or the agony of defeat is much more stimulating than dull inevitability.

What's inevitable here is that trading the way you have been is going to be a slow, dull grind compared to what you *could* be doing. (And really, if that's so fun, why aren't you gambling your life savings away as we speak? I swear, there are so many closet masochists playing this game....)

To me all you're doing is making the goal of reaching trade Elite a slower one. Why stick to doing that when you can do better?

And no, the in game tools have nothing to tell you about "faction state trading" either. Yes, certain faction states cause certain market opportunities to open up. But the ingame tools won't tell you SQUAT about what those markets are, or where to find sources for the new spikes in demand, unless you quite literally stumble across it in person whilst docking at a station.

There is a large number of players constantly updating the third party databases, so that's rarely an issue for me, and feel free to contribute yourself!

And it's not "intentionally keeping (information) from you" when the ingame trade tools literally do not function.

* I too refuse to accept "telepresence" as an idea.
 
Projection is real. Claiming others are lying when you yourself blatantly are is a very common practice amongst liars. Case in point, yourself.

Flying in this game, outside of combat, consists of three things:

-Jumping. Which isnt flying, its a loading screen.

-Supercruise: Flying in a straight line. So exciting that its SUPPORTERS actually recommend doing or watching something else on another screen while doing it. Some great game mechanic there.

-Docking: The only real, non combat flight in the game. Lasts about 90 seconds at a stretch. How very exiciting.

So, demonstrably, I'm not the liar. Which means, of course, that you are. But we already knew that, now didnt we.
you do get interdicted in supercruise. and see uss you can investigate. just saying
 
I had a bunch of multiquotes lined up, then somehow by trying to answer Darkfyre99 separately, it all apparently got lost. *headdesk*


On the topic of Autopilot:

NO. You add autopilot, you reduce the scale of the galaxy from being as massive as it is, more than Engineer blueprints and "neutron highways" already have. It's supposed to be huge, massive, mindnumbingly expansive.

The fact is the ingame representation of the Milky Way Galaxy is still a hugely watered down version of how big & densely populated with stars it is in real life.


I'm steadfastly against anything that takes a long, grand journey of epic proportions, and trivializes it for the sake of convenience.

Think about it for a minute: if a 9-to-5'er can just autopilot his way across the galaxy in a day, those of us who *do* have too much time on our hands could hop back and forth across the galaxy many times over in a week without hardly lifting a finger.

Hence, in capital letters, NO.


What is much more important - and would make autopilot superfluous - is targeting the time we spend staring at timers ticking down, and stuck at the arbitrary acceleration limit in supercruise. If Fdev reduced or even removed those timers & also removed the acceleration limits in supercruise, we would save *massive* amounts of time. (All of this is stuff I went over in my thread here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/354015-The-Thread-To-Save-Time)
 
I think this kind of illustrates the core of the whole matter.

If your goal is what you say it is then why aren't you just doing it?

From everything read you seem to think that there are some massive barriers to you doing it or that you need to be told or given permission to do it. There aren't, and you don't, respectively.

To illustrate what I mean, I'm aware of someone recently getting Elite in exploration using nothing but a sidewinder, and doing no missions whatsoever, after starting from scratch in an alt account.

That's a fair question.

I had known about ED for a while, and the introduction of Horizons, SRVs, and the planned introduction of multicrew and fighters was ultimately what convinced me to finally purchase the game.

After I had gotten my Asp Explorer, I decided to make a game plan. Namely, get a decent sized multi-crew ship for long range exploration, one capable of carrying both fighters and SRVs, preferably with spares if I lost some. I wanted to be able to zip around on undiscovered alien surfaces in small craft, and try to discover odd planets like those you often see on youtube.... THEN go out and do exploration, so as to avoid burning out on it before then (even that early, I was concerned about the jump mechanics getting tedius the way they are implemented).

By the time multicrew and fighters were introduced, I'd already amassed a decent wealth numbering in the 10s of millions. At that point, I started looking at options.

The first was the hauler... Which honestly, felt like a downgrade on my Asp. It didn't look like a ship that would interest me.

The second was... the federation dropship, i believe? This ship was well within my budget at the time. But when I went to track one down and buy one, that was the moment when I discovered that some ships in this game are locked behind reputation walls. I didn't have enough federation rank, not by a longshot. So I started trying (and failing) to find missions that would increase my Federation rank a significant amount. At that point, I realized it would probably faster to simply grind credits to the next option, than grind fed rank... Which meant the Beluga, a ship I already kind of liked, if only for its looks... And I got impatient, and that didn't turn out well.

... So basically, it was a self imposed goal to get a ship with those characteristics prior to leaving the bubble for the first time. It, at least appeared, that grinding missions to get mothership I wanted would be faster to do in the bubble with traditional missions first, rather than BY going out and exploring, as my experience with scan data up to that point was that it was trump change compared to mission rewards. Furthermore, long range passenger missions were really compelling, and were the one thing that appeared to make exploration the most profitable.

Yeah, it was my fault for having a self imposed goal like that, I should've just gone out and done whatever the hell I wanted, even if it hurt my progression rate. I've learned my lesson there now, and this is what I plan on doing from here on out. This being said, I do still think that exploration OUGHT to be more involved than doing the same task repeatedly hour after hour in the hopes you find something cool to look at, and more rewarding to your economic progress than it is currently.

Who knows, maybe scan data really is decently profitable, as some have mentioned in this thread that they make decent money out of it. But for those who say that, I'm genuinely curious, would you say you actually get the same cr/hr exploring as you do missions or trading or CGs? (not including exploits). Because, at least from my perspective, it doesn't appear to be nearly as profitable as other things in the game... Which makes probably the most attractive thing about the game, one of the less profitable things to do.
 
That's a fair question.
I had known about ED for a while, and the introduction of Horizons, SRVs, and the planned introduction of multicrew and fighters was ultimately what convinced me to finally purchase the game.
After I had gotten my Asp Explorer, I decided to make a game plan. Namely, get a decent sized multi-crew ship for long range exploration, one capable of carrying both fighters and SRVs, preferably with spares if I lost some. I wanted to be able to zip around on undiscovered alien surfaces in small craft, and try to discover odd planets like those you often see on youtube.... THEN go out and do exploration, so as to avoid burning out on it before then (even that early, I was concerned about the jump mechanics getting tedius the way they are implemented).
By the time multicrew and fighters were introduced, I'd already amassed a decent wealth numbering in the 10s of millions. At that point, I started looking at options.
The first was the hauler... Which honestly, felt like a downgrade on my Asp. It didn't look like a ship that would interest me.

Wait, hold on. The Hauler? The barely-larger-than-Sidewinder-new-player's-cargo-ship? Do you mean the Keelback? (Though that too is a definite downgrade from the Asp Explorer.)

Have you ever, by any chance, gone and looked at the numbers when it comes to Elite's ships? Because really, the numbers are everything to figuring out what's what when it comes to ships in this game.

Some sites & images you might want to check out if you haven't alredy:
https://coriolis.edcd.io/ and/or http://edshipyard.com/
http://elite.jeremy.sh/
https://i.imgur.com/ETIntBZ.jpg

The second was... the federation dropship, i believe? This ship was well within my budget at the time. But when I went to track one down and buy one, that was the moment when I discovered that some ships in this game are locked behind reputation walls. I didn't have enough federation rank, not by a longshot. So I started trying (and failing) to find missions that would increase my Federation rank a significant amount. At that point, I realized it would probably faster to simply grind credits to the next option, than grind fed rank... Which meant the Beluga, a ship I already kind of liked, if only for its looks... And I got impatient, and that didn't turn out well.

Ehhhhh? Why the Beluga, and not the Anaconda? I mean, even without the numbers, *surely* it was obvious the Beluga's design was Passenger-mission-centric (and not much else)...?

... So basically, it was a self imposed goal to get a ship with those characteristics prior to leaving the bubble for the first time. It, at least appeared, that grinding missions to get mothership I wanted would be faster to do in the bubble with traditional missions first, rather than BY going out and exploring, as my experience with scan data up to that point was that it was trump change compared to mission rewards. Furthermore, long range passenger missions were really compelling, and were the one thing that appeared to make exploration the most profitable.

Yeah, it was my fault for having a self imposed goal like that, I should've just gone out and done whatever the hell I wanted, even if it hurt my progression rate. I've learned my lesson there now, and this is what I plan on doing from here on out. This being said, I do still think that exploration OUGHT to be more involved than doing the same task repeatedly hour after hour in the hopes you find something cool to look at, and more rewarding to your economic progress than it is currently.

Now hold on. Your mistake wasn't having a self-imposed goal - that's rather the point, with playing Elite, so it's a GOOD thing! - your mistake was not first researching what's involved with your goal in order to find the best options.

I enjoy exploration as-is, I feel the biggest drag on it is (again pointing to my Save Time thread) how much of it is spent watching arbitrary timers and magic travel speed limits. I'm open for future improvement, but I don't want exploration to change so drastically that I can't enjoy it like I can now, either.

Who knows, maybe scan data really is decently profitable, as some have mentioned in this thread that they make decent money out of it. But for those who say that, I'm genuinely curious, would you say you actually get the same cr/hr exploring as you do missions or trading or CGs? (not including exploits). Because, at least from my perspective, it doesn't appear to be nearly as profitable as other things in the game... Which makes probably the most attractive thing about the game, one of the less profitable things to do.

As for economic progress via exploration - look, that's what "Trade" is all about; it's literally *all* about making yourself monetary profit. Exploration isn't and shouldn't be about the credits, it's about taking a journey & and venturing into the unknown, a voyage of grandeur and mystery. Fans of J.R.R. Tolkein should know what I'm on about. :p
 
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I had a bunch of multiquotes lined up, then somehow by trying to answer Darkfyre99 separately, it all apparently got lost. *headdesk*


On the topic of Autopilot:

NO. You add autopilot, you reduce the scale of the galaxy from being as massive as it is, more than Engineer blueprints and "neutron highways" already have. It's supposed to be huge, massive, mindnumbingly expansive.

The fact is the ingame representation of the Milky Way Galaxy is still a hugely watered down version of how big & densely populated with stars it is in real life.


I'm steadfastly against anything that takes a long, grand journey of epic proportions, and trivializes it for the sake of convenience.

Think about it for a minute: if a 9-to-5'er can just autopilot his way across the galaxy in a day, those of us who *do* have too much time on our hands could hop back and forth across the galaxy many times over in a week without hardly lifting a finger.

Hence, in capital letters, NO.


What is much more important - and would make autopilot superfluous - is targeting the time we spend staring at timers ticking down, and stuck at the arbitrary acceleration limit in supercruise. If Fdev reduced or even removed those timers & also removed the acceleration limits in supercruise, we would save *massive* amounts of time. (All of this is stuff I went over in my thread here: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php/354015-The-Thread-To-Save-Time)

I get kind of tired of the farming argument. Points and counterpoints have already been made over that, and it's lead to very good concepts that would allow a player to use an autopilot, but still require their presence and input. A few people who hated the idea of autopilot in this thread have started having more of an open mind about it, and rather than simply saying NO, have started thinking about ways to keep it balanced, and prevent it from being abused as a farming method, and they have come up with some very good ideas about it. It wouldn't be difficult AT ALL to introduce an autopilot system that a player couldn't reasonably walk away from for 8 hours. I encourage you to read those points and counterpoints. These include things like adding serious drawbacks, random events that require player input, distance limits, and other things the for the player to do while an autopilot is running (such as messing with scan data, or crafting of some kind. I even suggested it be used as an opportunity to beta test space legs in a limited capacity, by giving players the ability to walk around their ship). Point is, there's ways to go about it even you might find reasonable. I encourage you to stop thinking about it as a black and white situation in which autopilot literally renders the player pointless.

And quite frankly, if the player IS present, then I fail to see how the universe suddenly becomes "smaller" if you use the autopilot. This also seems to be a fallacious argument. The literal distances between stars, and the time it takes to near INSTANTLY jump from one to the next doesn't magically change if you start using autopilot. Quite the opposite in fact, one of the drawbacks I recommended for using it is that, when combined with more interesting interstellar flight mechanics, using an autopilot could in fact result in a higher chance of jump failure, and a significantly increased time to complete a jump. If the player is present and sitting through this, if anything, the universe would actually appear SMALLER if they put in the effort to fly the ship, thanks to the time savings.

I do however agree that the timers aren't really necessary, at least, outside of doing something wrong and being punished for it. For jumps it's not necessary. Maybe to go INTO super-cruise, it's there just to give opponents one last chance to kill you, and prevent you from instantaneously jumping away from danger.

As for the current super cruise mechanic... I don't know really how that can be improved upon. It's a logarithmic scale. This is an actual mathematical concept. Your speed increases in MAGNITUDE as your distance from a target increases linearly (I think. That's how it appears to me. And it would make sense to do this in this game). This is specifically to account for the vastness of space. Believe it or not, but geometrically speaking, the logarithmic throttle scale in this game is probably far faster than any linear throttle scale they could ever implement. Your speed scales to the distance you are from gravity wells and points of interest. If it didn't do this, you would not have the fine control necessary in any linear throttle (capable of not stupid slow speeds and travel times) to accurately drop on a target. I'm not even sure your computer can handle it either, as game engines use physics frames per second. If you're travelling fast enough, then you would be, say, 1 LS away from your target in one frame, and 1 LS past it in the next. Both you AND your computer would miss the target in the blink of an eye. And a throttle that follows a logarithmic scale is probably better at handling this kind of navigation than either you or your computer ever could on a linear one. So whether you realize it or not, the super cruise throttle in game is probably better at saving you more time than you realize... It MIGHT be able to be improved upon by changing the values of the logarithmic scale, or by making it more extreme, but honestly, it might already be near the most optimized for speed it could possibly be. I could be wrong of course, maybe they could push the current logarithmic scale throttle even farther than the way it works currently... But my point is, don't hold your breath on that, because it might literally be a software and hardware limitation with the distances they're using.

I also find it funny that you're criticizing the autopilot idea as something that would "reduce the scale of the universe" in one hand, but stating that you want to get to your destination FASTER in super-cruise in the other. For one thing, physical distance is already meaningless in this game. You can near instantly travel up to 50 light years, and even in super-cruise, you're travelling at super luminal speeds... That's INSANE. The physical distances don't change no matter how you change the way you get there. What you're doing is measuring distances (and vastness) in travel time. I'm not saying that's a wrong way to look at it, in fact, I tend to agree that this is what "vastness" is connected to. But, if you were to measure the scale of the universe in travel time rather than physical distance, as you seem to be, then I would argue that making super-cruise faster would reduce the vastness of space too. In fact, by this metric, using autopilot would be made to be slower than a real pilot, thus making it a bigger universe by using one... Essentially, what YOU want for the game, is just as superfluous as an autopilot by your own logic. The only way I could see your logic working is the idea that a player could literally walk away and go to work for 8 hours, essentially not even experiencing that flight time... But as I previously mentioned, there's ways to make sure a player's presence is practically required and even manual flight encouraged, to effectively make a person unable to turn this into a farming game.
 
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Wait, hold on. The Hauler? The barely-larger-than-Sidewinder-new-player's-cargo-ship? Do you mean the Keelback? (Though that too is a definite downgrade from the Asp Explorer.)

Have you ever, by any chance, gone and looked at the numbers when it comes to Elite's ships? Because really, the numbers are everything to figuring out what's what when it comes to ships in this game.

Some sites & images you might want to check out if you haven't alredy:
https://coriolis.edcd.io/ and/or http://edshipyard.com/
http://elite.jeremy.sh/
https://i.imgur.com/ETIntBZ.jpg



Ehhhhh? Why the Beluga, and not the Anaconda? I mean, even without the numbers, *surely* it was obvious the Beluga's design was Passenger-mission-centric (and not much else)...?



Now hold on. Your mistake wasn't having a self-imposed goal - that's rather the point, with playing Elite, so it's a GOOD thing! - your mistake was not first researching what's involved with your goal in order to find the best options.

I enjoy exploration as-is, I feel the biggest drag on it is (again pointing to my Save Time thread) how much of it is spent watching arbitrary timers and magic travel speed limits. I'm open for future improvement, but I don't want exploration to change so drastically that I can't enjoy it like I can now, either.



As for economic progress via exploration - look, that's what "Trade" is all about; it's literally *all* about making yourself monetary profit. Exploration isn't and shouldn't be about the credits, it's about taking a journey & and venturing into the unknown, a voyage of grandeur and mystery. Fans of J.R.R. Tolkein should know what I'm on about. :p

Sorry, yes, the keel-back... The ships blend together sometimes. I use rougey to figure out what ships have to offer.

The Beluga definitely isn't as good of an explorer than, well, MANY ships. But I didn't mind it being a passenger ship, since passenger missions appear to be really the only ones that mesh with long range exploration. I also kind of like the idea of being a cruise ship captain, showing "tourists" cool crap I've found... I dunno... I guess it's more down to role play than functionality. I figured, if I managed to find the time, I could try taking on one of those long range passenger missions.

Besides, it was the next thing up that I could afford with fighter capability... Like I said, I was getting pretty impatient with the mission boards and the progression rate by this point. It's why I lost the Beluga in the first place. I wasn't about to spend time grinding out twice as much money as I had at that point.

I suppose you're right about exploration's profitability. I guess that's true IRL as well. One of my ancestors, the great Tom Crean, was a 3 time antarctic explorer. Real nut job, almost got himself killed going down there, and saved lives while doing it. He became a house hold name in Ireland... But he wasn't rich. He retired to a small house and owned a little pub.

Maybe if there was something else to do out there. I mentioned the possibility of more in depth scientific study of interesting finds. Maybe this could be used as a way to grind faction reputation that's far better than more economic options like trade. Explorers aren't usually rich... But they do tend to be famous.
 
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On a side note, I've been writing replies alongside the game, and made the mistake of letting my sidewinder fly in super cruise away from the primary while I do it... I forgot how atrocious the fuel supply on this thing is XD. I never knew supercruise burned so much fuel.
 
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A thought provoking post, +1.

I have to disagree on a fundamental point though. E: D consists of one game - being an independent pilot/cmdr in the 3300's.

No, that is the narrative.

The 4 areas you've listed are just some things that you can do (or things that might happen to you).

Treating it as 4 games and looking at it like that, rather than looking at what the game actually is, will mean missing out on a lot of things, and unrealistic expectations about those 4 aspects.

Most computer games nowadays are basically a set of games-nested-inside-the-game. Done right, you get a whole that is more than the sum of its parts, and the ability to move between the games and leverage the rewards of one to meet challenges in the other. There is coherence between the sub-games and with the narrative and environment, creating the sense that you can do anything and anything can happen.. That is how most RPGs work.

But ED is most definitely a collection of sub-games. Check out the pilot ranking: one each for combat, trade and exploration (yeah, they forgot mining/crafting. Like I said, they missed bits). Three different reward structures. We could argue that just flying is another sub-game, with fuel scooping and neutron star jumping being challenges with their own micro-rewards. This is all good, but as I said some sub-games are better developed than others, and there is a lack of central coherence.

Just to illustrate what I mean, how many times have you seen someone go down the route of one of the 4 you've listed, decide that that is the game and then kick up a massive fuss because what they see as the game isn't getting enough development, and doesn't work exactly the way they think a dedicated game of that nature should work?

I think that they are responding to incompleteness. ED purports to be a sandbox, where (unlike many RPGs) you don't have to follow a specific path (or at least move in a certain direction) and there is no specific end goal (i.e. the narrative does not have an arc and climax). This means that you can stick to only one sub-game if you want, for as long as you want. However design flaws in some sub-games means that some sub-games are less fun and rewarding than others. A good sandbox game should leave you spoilt for choice. ED gets close, but there are some oversights.

I think this kind of illustrates the core of the whole matter.

If your goal is what you say it is then why aren't you just doing it?

From everything read you seem to think that there are some massive barriers to you doing it or that you need to be told or given permission to do it. There aren't, and you don't, respectively.

To illustrate what I mean, I'm aware of someone recently getting Elite in exploration using nothing but a sidewinder, and doing no missions whatsoever, after starting from scratch in an alt account.

The problem is that the challenges, games rules and reward structure for the exploration sub-game are poorly developed, which for many players does not make it sufficient fun.
 
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No, that is the narrative.



Most computer games nowadays are basically a set of games-nested-inside-the-game. Done right, you get a whole that is more than the sum of its parts, and the ability to move between the games and leverage the rewards of one to meet challenges in the other. There is coherence between the sub-games and with the narrative and environment, creating the sense that you can do anything and anything can happen.. That is how most RPGs work.

But ED is most definitely a collection of sub-games. Check out the pilot ranking: one each for combat, trade and exploration (yeah, they forgot mining/crafting. Like I said, they missed bits). Three different reward structures. We could argue that just flying is another sub-game, with fuel scooping and neutron star jumping being challenges with their own micro-rewards. This is all good, but as I said some sub-games are better developed than others, and there is a lack of central coherence.



I think that they are responding to incompleteness. ED purports to be a sandbox, where (unlike many RPGs) you don't have to follow a specific path (or at least move in a certain direction) and there is no specific end goal (i.e. the narrative does not have an arc and climax). This means that you can stick to only one sub-game if you want, for as long as you want. However design flaws in some sub-games means that some sub-games are less fun and rewarding than others. A good sandbox game should leave you spoilt for choice. ED gets close, but there are some oversights.



The problem is that the challenges, games rules and reward structure for the exploration sub-game are poorly developed, which for many players does not make it sufficient fun.

Thanks for replying, I respect your viewpoint and hope it gives something for Dale and co to think about.

Here's the thing though...

What I've said the game is is what I understand the game to be. It seems to be more or less what Braben and co consider the game to be as well, although that could just be considered narrative as you suggest.

The most pertinent thing though is that what I said the game is is the game that I'm playing. I'm not playing a combat game, a trade/missions game, a mining/crafting game or an exploration game, I'm playing the overall game.

And the thing is, I enjoy it. I think the overall game is good. Yes, it's not perfect, and yes, it's incomplete, but the game is in development and will be for another 7 years or so, so I don't expect either perfection or completeness. There are definitely improvements that I think can be made, but what I expect is that it is good for where it is in development. And that's what I get.

From what I see on the forums I seem to be much happier with the game I'm playing compared to those who play the sub-games. I get the impression that it's the same for others who play the overall game too. It's obviously up to you (and everyone else) what conclusions you draw from that. :)
 
On a side note, I've been writing replies alongside the game, and made the mistake of letting my sidewinder fly in super cruise away from the primary while I do it... I forgot how atrocious the fuel supply on this thing is XD. I never knew supercruise burned so much fuel.

If you're out of fuel, give the Fuel Rats a shout. They'll help you out.

https://fuelrats.com/
 
XD That's actually a thing?

It's fine, I just self destructed. It was only a nearly stock sidewinder. In fact, it saved me the trouble of flying back to turn the missions in. I'll make sure to fav the link though, just in case it happens again.

Yep :), although atm '500 Internal Server Error.' :(
 
Thanks for replying, I respect your viewpoint and hope it gives something for Dale and co to think about.

Here's the thing though...

What I've said the game is is what I understand the game to be. It seems to be more or less what Braben and co consider the game to be as well, although that could just be considered narrative as you suggest.

I would say it's what the game is about. It is the theme of the game: what the various game activities represent. The same game could essentially be set in a Fantasy Dungeons and Dragons setting, with ships replaced by horses and armour, lasers by swords, arrows and magic spells, and stations with villages and cities; and combat, piracy, bounty hunting, trading, missions (quests), mining, crafting and exploration all adapted to fit the environment. Essentially the same game activities, but with a different theme. ED is basically WoW in space.

The most pertinent thing though is that what I said the game is is the game that I'm playing. I'm not playing a combat game, a trade/missions game, a mining/crafting game or an exploration game, I'm playing the overall game.

I would argue that you are playing a whole set of sub-games, which are designed to dynamically and relatively seamlessly interact to constitute the main game. But that distinction is arguably technical and irrelevant to your experience. It only becomes obvious when there are design flaws and holes, like with e.g. the RNG element in engineering. Suddenly the subgame switches from a quest to a gamble without narrative context, and that makes no sense and jars. Another is how the dark side of planets are artificially lightened 'to facilitate game play'. It doesn't; it removes a strategic variable. You never remove strategic variables in a game that is supposed to offer a richly varied game play experience.

Another more fundamental flaw is with the fact that ED's reward structure is basically a poor fit with its open-ended sandbox nature. The reward structure is largely built around progression, which suggests an end goal (the victory condition). The problem here is that once you are Elite across the board, and you have All The Ships, and All The Credits, and done All The Activities, what else is there left to strive for? EvE Online tries to solve this by making progression incredibly grindy, and having a mind bogglingly huge number of goals to achieve. However a good sandbox game makes just doing stuff fun. ED could keep us going for a few centuries just exploring the galaxy --if exploring is fun. It could keep us doing combat, if that is sufficient fun (which means that skill has to be able to ultimately outweigh sheer ship and weapon size. EvE Online again solves this by the Circle of Death: larger ships beat smaller ships, but a concerted attack by a group of small ships can take down a large ship). It has to always be fun in its own right. That is what it needs to concentrate on: activities and experiences, not objectives.

And the thing is, I enjoy it. I think the overall game is good. Yes, it's not perfect, and yes, it's incomplete, but the game is in development and will be for another 7 years or so, so I don't expect either perfection or completeness. There are definitely improvements that I think can be made, but what I expect is that it is good for where it is in development. And that's what I get.

From what I see on the forums I seem to be much happier with the game I'm playing compared to those who play the sub-games. I get the impression that it's the same for others who play the overall game too. It's obviously up to you (and everyone else) what conclusions you draw from that. :)

I think ED is a masterpiece of coding. The Stellar Forge is undoubtedly a historic milestone in computer games just like ELITE was (and having been into that scene since the Atari 2600 back in 1978, so I've seen a few). The flight dynamics are superb. There is a lot to like about ED and it is undoubtedly my favourite game ever. But it also has some rather obvious flaws and bad game design decisions which are not a matter of lack of resources or technical limitations. They are just not well thought through. As such several interesting possibilities are lost, mistakes are made and occasionally outright bad decisions. It tells me that FD lacks a game designer (ludologist).

I suspect that David Braben imagined that ED was basically a matter of scaling up Elite: Frontier to the current state of computer game art. But it's more complicated than that. As you add more features and game play, you have to add more game mechanics, and the rules, challenges and reward structures all have to make sense. It all has to mesh with the existing stuff in a coherent and consistent manner. My impression is that it's being done by team discussion rather than by a game design expert.
 
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That's a fair question.

I had known about ED for a while, and the introduction of Horizons, SRVs, and the planned introduction of multicrew and fighters was ultimately what convinced me to finally purchase the game.

After I had gotten my Asp Explorer, I decided to make a game plan. Namely, get a decent sized multi-crew ship for long range exploration, one capable of carrying both fighters and SRVs, preferably with spares if I lost some. I wanted to be able to zip around on undiscovered alien surfaces in small craft, and try to discover odd planets like those you often see on youtube.... THEN go out and do exploration, so as to avoid burning out on it before then (even that early, I was concerned about the jump mechanics getting tedius the way they are implemented).

By the time multicrew and fighters were introduced, I'd already amassed a decent wealth numbering in the 10s of millions. At that point, I started looking at options.

The first was the hauler... Which honestly, felt like a downgrade on my Asp. It didn't look like a ship that would interest me.

The second was... the federation dropship, i believe? This ship was well within my budget at the time. But when I went to track one down and buy one, that was the moment when I discovered that some ships in this game are locked behind reputation walls. I didn't have enough federation rank, not by a longshot. So I started trying (and failing) to find missions that would increase my Federation rank a significant amount. At that point, I realized it would probably faster to simply grind credits to the next option, than grind fed rank... Which meant the Beluga, a ship I already kind of liked, if only for its looks... And I got impatient, and that didn't turn out well.

... So basically, it was a self imposed goal to get a ship with those characteristics prior to leaving the bubble for the first time. It, at least appeared, that grinding missions to get mothership I wanted would be faster to do in the bubble with traditional missions first, rather than BY going out and exploring, as my experience with scan data up to that point was that it was trump change compared to mission rewards. Furthermore, long range passenger missions were really compelling, and were the one thing that appeared to make exploration the most profitable.

Yeah, it was my fault for having a self imposed goal like that, I should've just gone out and done whatever the hell I wanted, even if it hurt my progression rate. I've learned my lesson there now, and this is what I plan on doing from here on out. This being said, I do still think that exploration OUGHT to be more involved than doing the same task repeatedly hour after hour in the hopes you find something cool to look at, and more rewarding to your economic progress than it is currently.

Who knows, maybe scan data really is decently profitable, as some have mentioned in this thread that they make decent money out of it. But for those who say that, I'm genuinely curious, would you say you actually get the same cr/hr exploring as you do missions or trading or CGs? (not including exploits). Because, at least from my perspective, it doesn't appear to be nearly as profitable as other things in the game... Which makes probably the most attractive thing about the game, one of the less profitable things to do.

Nothing wrong with whatsoever with having a self-imposed goal, as V'larr says! I think all that's happened is that you've mixed up your goals a bit. Unless I've misunderstood, you set yourself a short term goal (get the ship) to enable you to do a longer term goal (go exploring). It's a good approach in general. All that's happened in this case is that you thought you needed more than you had ship-wise, whereas actually you pretty much already had the perfect ship for your longer term goal.

It also sounds like you were concerned that you were concerned that going out and doing what you wanted might hurt your progression rate. My question on this is; what is it that you think you're progressing towards that you're worried about getting there slower? If you're talking about ranks and money, then it's worth thinking about what you'll do once you've reached the levels you want, and then asking yourself if there's any reason you can't or don't want to do that stuff now. Nothing wrong with going for ranks and money by the way, I just wouldn't want to see you doing it so you can do something else, only to find out that you could have just done that something else in the first place! :)

And yes, scan data can be very profitable. There's a few routes available to rack up around 100MCr in a short space of time. I've never bothered with them myself. They're money things and not really exploration as it's just following a route someone else has already worked out. Anyway though, if you've already got what you need to do the most attractive thing in the game, what does it matter how profitable that thing is? ;)
 
Um, duh? That's literally the only way you CAN make it up, is by sheer volume when you're making trades at less than a *quarter* of the value you could be.

And when you say this, I chuckled:


What's inevitable here is that trading the way you have been is going to be a slow, dull grind compared to what you *could* be doing. (And really, if that's so fun, why aren't you gambling your life savings away as we speak? I swear, there are so many closet masochists playing this game....)

To me all you're doing is making the goal of reaching trade Elite a slower one. Why stick to doing that when you can do better?

And no, the in game tools have nothing to tell you about "faction state trading" either. Yes, certain faction states cause certain market opportunities to open up. But the ingame tools won't tell you SQUAT about what those markets are, or where to find sources for the new spikes in demand, unless you quite literally stumble across it in person whilst docking at a station.

There is a large number of players constantly updating the third party databases, so that's rarely an issue for me, and feel free to contribute yourself!

And it's not "intentionally keeping (information) from you" when the ingame trade tools literally do not function.

* I too refuse to accept "telepresence" as an idea.

I think I begin to see where our disconnect is.

In short, my goal is not to reach Elite in trading. I don't care about reaching any of the three categories as fast as possible. It will happen sooner or later, and they provide no benefit beyond bragging rights.

My goals in this game are:
  • To have fun
  • To not break character.
  • To help spread the light of freedom, civilization, and prosperity throughout the Galaxy

The first is most important to me. I play games to have fun, and the things I find fun in this game are:
  • Flying my space ship, and pushing it too its limits to travel as fast as possible.
  • To seek out and learn new things. Whether it is developing a new skill in the game, exploring a new region of space, or trying to understand some aspect of the game Universe, the fun is the process of discovery, not the fruits of that discovery. Which is why I try to avoid walkthroughs, guides, or spoilers. And I personally consider sites like eddb.io to be all three. The only thing I use it for is to find out the average price of grain at Azaban City when I'm away from home, because I don't have access to the game.
  • Roleplaying. I'm a roleplayer at heart, and when I play a game, I play that game as an inhabitant of that Universe, NOT as a player sitting in front of her computer (in VR) playing a game. Combine that with what I wrote above, it means I have a tendancy to pay attention to things. I read the tourist beacons in any system I'm operating in, as well as scan as many information nodes as I can. I also pay attention to things most gamers skip. This creates a rather interesting picture of why the Elite: Dangerous Universe is so dysfunctional:
    • The first is to confirm that Corporations in the Elite: Dangerous Universe were still cut from the same cloth as Omni Consumer Products, Wayland-Yutani, and or Lexcorp. And there are a lot of corporations out there that are basically Corporate Towns scaled up to control entire star systems. I'm both very familiar with the history of Corporate Towns, the history of the East India Company, and have read the Wealth of Nations. This paints a rather horrific picture.
    • When I started reading the beacons in Shinrarta Dezhra, I was rather startled to discover that the Pilots' Federation was this Universe's version of Comstar, a "corporation" that controlled interstellar communications in the game Battletech. Only rather than being a cult of techno-pagans who wanted plunge humanity into a new Dark Age, so that they could reshape the Inner Sphere in their own image, the Pilots' Federation is a criminal cabal uses their "near monopoly" of the flow of information to enrich their members, and to ensure that their members can literally get away with mass murder.

The second is to not break character.

  • I have a rather detailed history of Inga Stevenson, as well as a personality profile. While Commander Stevenson has a lot of traits in common with me, she is also a traditional Imperial, the "bad guys" of Elite's two sequels. Whenever I'm at a loss of what the right choice is to be, I just ask "What would Inga do?"
  • I also try to keep OOC knowledge separate from IC knowledge. Of course, part of Inga's background was that one of the reasons she sold herself into Imperial Slavery was to get a full education, AND she apprenticed with an ancient prospector before the FSD was invented, so she knows a lot. But the bottom line is that if she shouldn't know something, then she doesn't.
    • Which leads me to the topic at hand: the in game trade tools. Yes, they aren't very good if your goal is to get to Elite in trading as fast as possible. There is no way to get market data remotely. But from what I've read IN the game, as well as from Frontier's dev diaries, newsletters, and some of the stuff in the DDF, my conclusion that this is a deliberate design choice made by Frontier. You are free to feel that this is a horrible design decision, but I personally enjoy it. But as far as the game universe is concerned, the Pilots' Federation has a "near monopoly" on information and station services, and if they don't provide that information to its members, then they don't want you to have it.
    • The Pilots' Federation, however, DOES regularly update the Galaxy Map, to let us know about faction state changes. It is trivially easy to go into the Galaxy Map, select the "faction state" filter, and select on the "war" states if your interest is combat, or "famine" and "outbreak" states if your interest is faction state trading.
  • I tend to avoid meta-gaming, primarily because doing it frequently requires me to break character and rely on OOC knowledge.

Finally, my third goal is to help spread the light of freedom, prosperity, and civilization throughout the Galaxy. This means that I tend to support Imperial factions, and work against the Evil Galactic Federation. This means I tend to play with the Background Simulation. This is probably the closest I ever get to meta-gaming, but I can usually justify it IC. BGS work is basically how many transactions you can complete per minute. Whether they are missions, exploration data, or trade, the more you do, the more influence you deliver to a particular faction.

On the trade side of things, influence gain is capped both on profit per transaction, so you want a wide variety of commodities to ship, and you want to compete as many runs as you can. Coincidentally, Commander Stevenson isn't omniscient, so when she has extra room in her cargo hold while running a mission, she tends to hedge her bets by bringing in several different commodities.
 
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