PvP A question of honour

[Auronio]

You mean you met someone that actually read the whole thread rather than just jumping in & assuming they could make out the OP to be a 'scrub'?.

This conversation has been had already Replicant. The first few posts were deleted but the meat of it is still there for you to read. The OP was flying an Asp, so was the aggressor.

And anyone that thinks legitimately exiting the game is cheating is a troll or an idiot.

Riverside,
I wouldn't go so far as to call one not agreeing with my point of view an idiot.

For the others.
I understand the opinion of other players that this game basically has no rules and hence everything is allowed. For instance attacking another player's unoccupied ship (I got the message that some perceive that as the OP's = mine own fault hence I should live with the consequences).

If this no rules rule = everything allowed is valid then the consequence would be that anything what I did is equally valid and allowed. For instance menu logging. Defining no rules for one side but defining some for the other (= menu logging is forbidden) easily is unmasking the hypocrisy of the argument.

But it's much easier in my point of view. There was no combat cause in my understanding of combat it entails that two sides (or more) fight against each other.
There was no fight cause I was not flying a ship. Hence no combat let alone combat logging.
One could argue I might/should have fought in my SRV against the Asp CMDR and for maybe two or three microseconds after realizing my ship was attacked I was considering that.
But instead of trying this futile manoeuvre I decided not allowing the aggressor a cheap win for something I consider an unfair and hence dishonourable tactic.

Bottom line nobody lost anything except for some time in game.

And for sure we meanwhile lost way more time arguing without any result about what in the end are different perceptions and opinions.
I respect those of the players who disagree with me, please respect mine as well.

o7, over and out.

 

[CMDR Plexus Ironrot]

I have some very strong opinions on CLogging and have put considerable effort into explaining them as clearly and unambiguously as possible on this Forum. Using the 15 sec timer to leave the game isn't cheating. It could be changed, it could be extended & the conformation could be moved to the start & have the screen go black & mute the sound but in the game as it is it isn't cheating.

Instance flipping because you don't like the cards you were dealt, or following a how-to guide to skip the whole puzzle solving gameplay isn't really all that bad but on the scale of what is a cheat & what isn't both are further up the 'this is cheating' scale than legitimately exiting the game by waiting out the 15 sec timer.

Yeah I have read some from you. I totally understand. Just I have a very “eh” perspective as it doesn’t affect my gameplay much.

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

Don't let me say so. Just look at the 3 plus 1 career rank structures... (Hint: an arena that is "added on" - if the main game was an arena, then there would have been no need for an arena as an add on, would there?)

The penny might drop eventually.

Of course, any player could *treat* E: D as an arena type game. The fact that some player's appear to treat it like that doesn't suddenly make it into an arena type game.

We all recognise this, right?

Slàinte Mhath

Mark H

I don't think you have any idea what I'm talking about. No worries, but probably explains why we're so far apart on many issues.

Look, I'll say this: Elite: Dangerous is very much a simulation of a living, breathing galaxy. As befits such an extraordinary achievement, a very real political layer has emerged thanks to all of us. That's the game I'm talking about.

 

[Rampant]

I don't think you have any idea what I'm talking about. No worries, but probably explains why we're so far apart on many issues.

Look, I'll say this: Elite: Dangerous is very much a simulation of a living, breathing galaxy. As befits such an extraordinary achievement, a very real political layer has emerged thanks to all of us. That's the game I'm talking about.

If you happen to be off topic and talking about the BGS, I can go some way to agreeing with you that the whole game "might" entail conflict. But I don't agree that for a casual mission runner that they are participants the overall conflict.
Just as PvP combat is optional, so too is BGS PvP activity. Optional. Let me know if I am getting closer to your thoughts. But let's not make a discussion of it here since that would take it off topic.

I suspect that we are much closer aligned than you might imagine on many issues...

Yours Aye


Mark H

 

[Phisto Sobanii]

If you happen to be off topic and talking about the BGS, I can go some way to agreeing with you that the whole game "might" entail conflict. But I don't agree that for a casual mission runner that they are participants the overall conflict.
Just as PvP combat is optional, so too is BGS PvP activity. Optional. Let me know if I am getting closer to your thoughts. But let's not make a discussion of it here since that would take it off topic.

I suspect that we are much closer aligned than you might imagine on many issues...

Yours Aye


Mark H

Closer, but not quite. Where I'm at is taking the game holistically and exploring what that means in the context of a player group and its relationship to other players and groups.

 

[Auronio]

Closer, but not quite. Where I'm at is taking the game holistically and exploring what that means in the context of a player group and its relationship to other players and groups.

Now that's a challenging one cause I'm not sure whether I can adequately express my thoughts/opinion in English which isn't my native language.
I agree with regards to the holistic approach and I believe I understand what you mean. Can't know of course.

When you say

I don't think you have any idea what I'm talking about. No worries, but probably explains why we're so far apart on many issues.

Look, I'll say this: Elite: Dangerous is very much a simulation of a living, breathing galaxy. As befits such an extraordinary achievement, a very real political layer has emerged thanks to all of us. That's the game I'm talking about.

I would assume that the simulation itself allows a lot of freedom for the player to interpret which rules should be applicable. Which in the end is an individual decision.

For instance.
One player decides he/she does want to engage other players into combat - whether on mutual agreement or without - where another player decides he/she doesn't want to be engaged.
In both cases players might base their activities on what - assumed social consensus of the real world - is considered a set of basic moral/ethical principles or plain without.

I wouldn't interpret the existence of combat mechanics as such as evidence this game's open mode was meant by its developers as a complimentary ticket for PvP combat only (I know you didn't say that) - it's one possible activity among many but not the only one. Open mode imho is not synonymous to PvP combat.

I like the idea of players and player groups interacting with each other even if it's in most cases only indirectly via BGS mechanics.

I also easily accept the fact that FDev have designed - questionless for entertainment reasons - this game with strong combat elements. I really doubt I would enjoy it as much if there was nothing to shoot at.

However that brings me back questioning whether we can really talk about a simulation. Or not rather about a well done space game with combat elements among others and some elements which have a simulative character. Such as the simulation of our Milky Way.

The role all players - as members of the Pilots Federation - take (excluding the little minority of players who don't engage in any combat) is one of a killer, a mass murderer. And we are legion. Sometimes justified and allowed, yes, even paid by local law/government but nevertheless a cruel amoral act which wouldn't be tolerated by any current real life society.

(Same for me and almost all of us. And I see that this underlying lack of morale is/might be taken by some fellow players as justification for everything is allowed within the game.)

Personally I hope ED's simulative character is not adequately describing what we would have to expect in a society 1.300 years ahead.

If so - trying to find an analogoue of our time - it would mean I could go to your country, meet you in a street and without further ado, I shot you in your head (or applying the logic of my initial post I shot you in your back) and - provided no one caught me - I would go back to my country or any other country, visit my next trusted attorney, pay the bill for your murder and deal done.
Coming back next time to your country as a well respected member of our global society...

Not sure whether I would be looking forward for such a future.
But that... would be another discussion.

For the moment I believe - it's just a game.

o7

 

[Guest 161958]

Coming back next time to your country as a well respected member of our global society...

o7

The issue with C&P in one sentence.

I am off to the request subforum for an idea you triggered, thanks.

 

[Rampant]

Closer, but not quite. Where I'm at is taking the game holistically and exploring what that means in the context of a player group and its relationship to other players and groups.

Mostly, in a holistic sense, they have very little interaction, dependency or effect. Because, in the vast majority, the population of the game is not actively participating in any kind of conflict with any other part of the population, and simply play what might be described as a casual game. In any mode. On any platform. In any time zone. Sometimes with multiple instancing to boot.

What's your conclusion so far?

 

[lifeschool-amiga]

As far as this game goes, there are a lot of great people who play in Open, while these days there are just as many Gankers.

I have tried to play in Open and each time it leads to a PVP destruction, and has taken out most of the fun.

I was just blown up by the 44th Vulture Squadron, just because I showed up in their Res. No messages or warnings, just full on attack and destruction. So its back to Solo and private groups for me.

I didnt even think about pressing ESC and mode switching, as thats really a pansy way out.

So Im down to my last 900M cr now, boo-hoo.

But as far as 'ethics?', its now jerking off escalated to squadron levels, killing defenceless people, with no penalty for them, despite Law and Order which was supposed to stop greifers.

 

[Riverside]

As far as this game goes, there are a lot of great people who play in Open, while these days there are just as many Gankers.

I have tried to play in Open and each time it leads to a PVP destruction, and has taken out most of the fun.

I was just blown up by the 44th Vulture Squadron, just because I showed up in their Res. No messages or warnings, just full on attack and destruction. So its back to Solo and private groups for me.

I didnt even think about pressing ESC and mode switching, as thats really a pansy way out.

So Im down to my last 900M cr now, boo-hoo.

But as far as 'ethics?', its now jerking off escalated to squadron levels, killing defenceless people, with no penalty for them, despite Law and Order which was supposed to stop greifers.

On the bright side exploration now pays out huge sums (relative to pre-3.3) so you can build up some funds really easily. I've earned over a billion in exploration data alone since 3.3 dropped in.

I think there has been a bit of a shift towards squadrons/player groups treating any stranger as an enemy which is a shame, but not really a surprise. Provide a flag that makes it easy to identify friends and tribalism is an inevitable result imo, same thing happened with Eve years ago.

 

[Hellfire85]

As far as this game goes, there are a lot of great people who play in Open, while these days there are just as many Gankers.

I have tried to play in Open and each time it leads to a PVP destruction, and has taken out most of the fun.

I was just blown up by the 44th Vulture Squadron, just because I showed up in their Res. No messages or warnings, just full on attack and destruction. So its back to Solo and private groups for me.

I didnt even think about pressing ESC and mode switching, as thats really a pansy way out.

So Im down to my last 900M cr now, boo-hoo.

But as far as 'ethics?', its now jerking off escalated to squadron levels, killing defenceless people, with no penalty for them, despite Law and Order which was supposed to stop greifers.

I have sent you a message on Inara about the matter and had a talk with the pilots involved.
Be sure that we usually don't shoot on sight and without communicating first unless you are enemy pledged or a known troublemaker.

 

[Oopsie Daisy]

Grinding Guardian stuff is an offense to the Far God. Your assasination was justified.

 

[Slange Lands]

I don't play in the open, I don't PvP, and I wouldn't do that to someone unless they had wronged me in some way, so there's no misunderstanding when I say this but....

There's no honor in a video game. There's no 'reputation'. There's no privilege, no superior standing in a society, or symbol of distinction.

I wouldn't expect it either.

Except that I have spent many hours in a wing with folk from halfway across the world who are as kind and considerate to me as my neighbors across the street. I have had conversations with Commanders, who I probably will never meet, on Discord that were as invigorating and delightful as playing with my kitten.

Perhaps there is no honor in a video game per se, but many of the people whom I have met playing ED are very kind and respectful. Many gamers, when not role playing, are very consistent in their behavior regardless of venue. I treasure that.

o7

 

[lifeschool-amiga]

I have sent you a message on Inara about the matter and had a talk with the pilots involved.
Be sure that we usually don't shoot on sight and without communicating first unless you are enemy pledged or a known troublemaker.

Thanks, I got your message. I've had too many takeouts in Open and this was a final straw for a while. I understand pirates take down ships for fun, but its not for me.