A Random Thought About Birds in Zoos

[NZFanatic]

Another birds thread? Oh no!

This is a little bit different though. This isn't a wishlist or anything, or a discussion about how feasible flying is in the game or whatever.

It occurs to me that birds in zoos don't do a lot of flying around. Birds of prey tend to be fairly rooted to one spot (I've witnessed this with the Steller's sea eagle and Egyptian vultures at Edinburgh Zoo, the several birds of prey at Jurong Bird Park, the NZ falcon on display at Willowbank Wildlife Reserve here in NZ, and elsewhere), only really budging for food. Parrots are more mobile, but even then they tend to climb with their beaks and feet and play with toys rather than flying from A to B. Pigeons fly a little more, but even they generally remain on their perches.

We talk a lot about free-flying birds in the game, but I don't think we really consider how little that behaviour would need to be truly utilised. Let's be real here, the birds that fly the most in aviaries are smaller birds, like finches, parakeets, passerines of various stripes, all birds that are fairly small and not the main feature of wherever they are. The bigger birds, the main stars, the ones that we would likely get in the game if we ever did get them, wouldn't really need to do all that. So I guess I'm wondering what people actually want out of birds. Do they want birds that are constantly flying around in circles in aviaries, or birds that behave like birds in zoos tend to do? Or something in between?

 

[jcp011c]

Ideally somewhere in between. Have a lot of just perching (for nonground based birds) but have them be able to fly every so often.

 

[SpookDoc]

As @jcp011c mentioned, a middle ground would be most ideal. JWE2’s flying mechanics are an admirable achievement, but imo the pterosaurs fly a little too much. Especially when you consider they have little to no ground-based interactions besides idle resting or feeding. They don’t even have walking animations (which is incredibly apparent for their newest addition, the Quetzalcoatlus, but that’s a different topic).

All this said, birds in captivity are naturally resting or performing more ground-based interactions than flighted ones, as they are typically quite confined. Honestly, if total “free-range flight” is not feasible for Frontier to achieve in PZ1 (or a possible 2), birds that perform primarily terrestrial animations and interactions are fine with me. And I mean this even for the species that in the wild are typically spending most of their time in the air. Give us some parrots, birds of prey, etc. that can make use of the current climbing mechanics and occasionally “jump-fly” like PZ’s current flamingo and crane do around their enclosures and I’m content.

Having more “flighty” bird species spend majority of their time on climbing enrichment/the ground is better than not having them in PZ at all. Especially when one considers how common/essential they are in modern zoo settings. PZ is missing half of what typically makes up most modern zoos’ animal collections.

 

[iloveyourzoos]

For myself, I want as many species in the game as possible, performing as many of their realistic (in real zoos) actions as possible.

But for me, it is not necessary for every animal to exhibit every possible behavior. If they can show me what that animal is doing 90% of the time in actual zoos, or even 80% or 75% of the time, then I'd rather have that than nothing at all. And we can possibly come back for the extra behaviors later. (the same away additional animations have been added for other animals after their first arrival).

So if there are birds that spend most of their time near the ground, I'd love to have that please. No need to wait!

If there are birds who spend most of their time climbing, perching, or flying up to or close to a set perch, then I'd love to have that please. It seems like the mechanics for this are already developed.

If the best way to implement flying is to have it as a loop around a hidden enrichment item, or to link two enrichment items (flying start and flying end) together like we do with restaurant tables and have them use those, then I'm game for that.

If they're working on a new barrier type of something that allows birds to fly freely within an area, then that's wonderful and I'm happy to wait for that to be developed.

But I'd much rather have the animals, even with some limitations, than never to get them at all. As for which birds need to go into each of these categories to be realistic, I leave that for the devs and the zoology experts among us to sort out. I just want them to look good and have enough actions to keep a dummy like me entertained! LOL!

Personally, my constant hope is that Frontier has just set a really high standard for themselves which they are actively working to meet, and that a bird plan is indeed in the works, just as diving or brachiation or herding or chorus or burrowing plans were, and that we'll all be incredibly pleased when the roll out finally happens. (Please, please, please let this be the case!). I see signs and hopes that this may indeed be where we're going, although of course I have nothing definitive to prove that, so it's easy for people to say it's all just wishful thinking.

My constant fear, on the other hand, is that those same high standards (which will be lovely if met) might lead either the devs, or the player base, to make the "perfect" the enemy of the "good". Meaning that there might be animals that we won't get solely because they couldn't master those last 5% or 10-15% of their actions, when a player like me would have been more than happy with what could have been done. Or that the mechanics will get mastered so late that we end up with far fewer bids than we might have.

 

[NZFanatic]

I suppose the purpose of this thread is to gauge what people are picturing their birds actually doing in their zoos. When I think of an eagle in the game, for example, I'm imagining it sort of just sitting somewhere, observing guests as they walk through or around the aviary, maybe lazily gliding to another perch or wherever their food dish is. Parrots I imagine clambering around branches and the sides of the aviary, squawking at each other. I don't really picture a lot of flying, though of course they would need that ability.

And yeah, the JWE2 pterosaurs are entirely too mobile in the air for aviary animals, which is another reason I posted this thread, because I'd rather birds in PZ weren't like that at all.

 

[peafowl]

Another bird thread? Oh yes. More. Flood the forums.

 

[NZFanatic]

Another bird thread? Oh yes. More. Flood the forums.

If Frontier doesn't know the community wants aviaries by now then there's no hope, really.

 

[NachoB]

TBH i would be happy even with a set of loop animations like the aviary animals in Prehistoric Kingdom. As long as they have enough animations and behaviours that cycle so they don't look too repetitive it would be ok for me. That system even allows for free building for the exhibits and aviaries.

Other idea is enrichment items that make them fly from point A to B to C or something like that and display some pre-programed behaviours once they reach them ( i just hope they are more natural looking or easier to hide than the siamang enrichment). And they should be coded so they stay most of the time perched or using the enrichment items.

 

[TheYeti]

Just curious, since I truly don't know: do birds not fly because they don't have a need, or because zoo aviaries tend to be too small? If the latter is true, I bet Frontier wouldn't want to implement birds that can only display behaviour that is caused by a lack of space.

However, if lack of space isn't a serious issue (which I still assume), I think a system like Prehistoric Kingdom would be good. If I'm not mistaken, there birds are in some kind of 'exhibit' that can be totally boxless, meaning you can make a habitat around it as big as you like. In a way, it would be similar to the branchiation frames which you can modify to a certain extent.

A system in line with this would be to have enrichment items that have a programmed movement where the animal flies towards it. However, this may be more complex since there will need to be flying animations between to of such items in every dimension too. I would be totally fine with having birds mostly sedentary or moving on climbable items, with them only flying every now and then.

 

[Angeł]

TBH i would be happy even with a set of loop animations like the aviary animals in Prehistoric Kingdom. As long as they have enough animations and behaviours that cycle so they don't look too repetitive it would be ok for me. That system even allows for free building for the exhibits and aviaries.

Other idea is enrichment items that make them fly from point A to B to C or something like that and display some pre-programed behaviours once they reach them ( i just hope they are more natural looking or easier to hide than the siamang enrichment). And they should be coded so they stay most of the time perched or using the enrichment items.

This is exactly the way I was thinking they would do it; an enrichment item that allows birds to fly from one point to another! It would in fact be MORE realistic than ‘fully free-flying’ birds. This would also solve the problem of having to build custom aviaries. Casual players can build an open air exhibit with birds that functions and they cannot escape. Then they have the option to build aviaries. Builders can build to their hearts content a habitat that looks realistic and contains the birds from above (while not being necessary). Win win for everyone!

 

[Doran]

Just curious, since I truly don't know: do birds not fly because they don't have a need, or because zoo aviaries tend to be too small? If the latter is true, I bet Frontier wouldn't want to implement birds that can only display behaviour that is caused by a lack of space.

Birds fly in order to survive. Since in captivity they have everything for free, they dont need to do so. Flying cost a lot of energy so most birds prefer to walk in most of cases.

Same case for arboreal animals like red pandas and orangutans. No predators in captivity so they can walk freely on ground.

 

[markun]

For me, flying doesn’t need to be that complicated. I have seen parrots, toucans, hornbills, owls, eagles etc flying but they aren’t soaring in an aviary the size of the Grand Canyon, they glide from one end of an aviary to another, flap down from one perch to another or from one corner of their aviary to another.

I don’t see this requiring especially more advanced animations than those my ibex use when slow motion hopping over a log. Perching and climbing doesn’t need to be more complex than mammals climbing.

This is a zoo game, not a condor soaring over the Andes game and I think realistic zoo birds could be implemented without too much difficulty if they chose to do so.

 

[yoav_r]

Just curious, since I truly don't know: do birds not fly because they don't have a need, or because zoo aviaries tend to be too small? If the latter is true, I bet Frontier wouldn't want to implement birds that can only display behaviour that is caused by a lack of space.

Humans are built to walk ~12 km a day in the least. Yet most people today don't because exercise is hard and we don't need to.

Same for birds. If they don't have to fly, they don't do it a lot. That's why birds on islands with no predators often lose the ability to fly over a few generations.

However, many zoos do put birds in tiny cages which are too smsll for their mental well being. The more modern aviary domes allow for enough space for many bird species, but they are much more costly to build and maintain.

Also, there are some birds thst really need a huge space, and shouldn't be kepy in captivity, or should be kept in enormous aviaries. The Condors in the San Diego Zoo have an enormous aviary the size of a small mountainside, for example. Most zoos obviously could never afford that.

 

[iloveyourzoos]

Most zoos obviously could never afford that.

But luckily Sandbox allows for unlimited cash, so this shouldn't be an impediment for getting them in the game.

 

[NachoB]

This is a zoo game, not a condor soaring over the Andes game and I think realistic zoo birds could be implemented without too much difficulty if they chose to do so.

I still want an Andean condor though

They do keep them in zoos. At least here in Argentina.

 

[markun]

I still want an Andean condor though

They do keep them in zoos. At least here in Argentina.

Yes I know. Just to clarify, I’m not saying I don’t want condors. I am saying I want zoo condors, not wild birds. I don’t need them to soar across the Andes, just flap about in an aviary and maybe glide down from one corner to another.

 

[SallinDaemon]

Honestly, the majority of the birds I'd like to see in-game are the flighty little passerine types. I like BoPs as much as the next person, and the king vulture is my favourite bird point blank, but while BoPs and big macaws are impressive, I don't think any zoo is truly complete without at least a small selection of brightly-coloured little guys all flitting around. Rainbow lorikeets! A swathe of starlings - the superb, the violet-backed, the Bali myna! Lots of little doves, like the diamond or the bleeding heart!

Essentially I'd really want to be fully stocked with enough birds that do fly around that I could make a walkthrough aviary, it's always a highlight when I get to go to a zoo that has one. I'd settle for mostly-stationary and ground-dwelling birds if those were the only options, but it'd be nice for the little guys to get a bit of love, too.

 

[TheYeti]

Humans are built to walk ~12 km a day in the least. Yet most people today don't because exercise is hard and we don't need to.

Same for birds. If they don't have to fly, they don't do it a lot. That's why birds on islands with no predators often lose the ability to fly over a few generations.

However, many zoos do put birds in tiny cages which are too smsll for their mental well being. The more modern aviary domes allow for enough space for many bird species, but they are much more costly to build and maintain.

Also, there are some birds thst really need a huge space, and shouldn't be kepy in captivity, or should be kept in enormous aviaries. The Condors in the San Diego Zoo have an enormous aviary the size of a small mountainside, for example. Most zoos obviously could never afford that.

Ah that's what I was expecting. I know most animals don't show natural behaviours in zoos because they don't need to, whereas some definitely have too small exhibits (especially polar bears). It makes sense then that larger birds of prey also need larger aviaries, though I mostly see them in smaller ones.

 

[premierfong]

We just need some rigs. Even if we have eagle, it can just jump on the branch, don't need to fly.

 

[XT]

Just curious, since I truly don't know: do birds not fly because they don't have a need, or because zoo aviaries tend to be too small? If the latter is true, I bet Frontier wouldn't want to implement birds that can only display behaviour that is caused by a lack of space.

a few reasons, some discussed above (ie: flying is expensive, birds don't do it as often if they are getting their needs met without a lot of flying). However, also - in pretty much every modern zoo I've been in in the US, the vast majority of larger flying birds are permanently damaged. One eyed owls, predators' with damaged beaks or wings, etc. So, many of them can't fly. Smaller birds, birds that are part of a preservation program (like Cali. Condors) etc, aren't so likely to be injured but eagles? Large owls? More likely.