A response to those who admonish "meta-gamers," "min-maxers," "people who want to progress," etc.
- Thread starter LetoAtreides2
- Start date
Wikipedia says:
"Metagaming is any strategy, action or method used in a game which transcends a prescribed ruleset, uses external factors to affect the game, or goes beyond the supposed limits or environment set by the game."
I'm not sure how anything I've ever done in Elite: Dangerous is transcending a prescribed ruleset. Would you please explain? Also - why does your definition differ so greatly from that in Wikipedia?
As an aside, and not specifically regarding your post, all this "meta" talk is starting to sound like a a lot of nonsense to me.
Cheers!
i have to agree... never heard 'meta' used like the op does... anyway....
i do missions
i bounty hunt in res
i do CG's
i do trade
i do powerplay
i do background sim
i dont do mining... maybe will try sometime....
i will go explorin at some point...
am i meta gaming yet?
Well said. +1
Maybe, down the line, if Elite ever achieves a true variety of actions for players to do, and reasons to do them, then you'll be right. As it stands right now, there is an extremely limited number of actions/environments that a player can experience. As I said in the OP, progression here is needed - the only way to experience something new is in a different ship or with different modules. To "progress," if you will. Until FD can get on track and actually put meaningful content in the game,the game will very much continue to be about progression.
Also, you use the word "break?" You think buffing mining would "break" elite? You think returning missiles to their former glory would "break" elite? You think giving players relatively balanced, meaningful choices of viable things to do would "break" elite? Does FD pay you to say these things, to say that the overall balance of Elite is somehow perfect in every way at the moment?
No, in games with proper balance, min-maxers do not say these things. Even in a game like Elite where the "optimal" strategy is leagues above anything else, they don't say this. Except maybe that "the game is broken," which it is.
It seems like the forums think of "min-maxers" or "meta-gamers" as some sort of bogeymen of the community. I, for one, once opened up a spreadsheet to determine an optimal Clipper weapons loadout. And guess what - it was fun. And, to put a realistic spin to it, wouldn't a real-life pilot want to do some calculations to ensure that his ship is running optimally?
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Soopyy, I don't think I am the only player to have no real interest in getting the big ships. I just can't see the need to fly around in a Python or Anaconda, I am having too much fun flying my cheap as chips Vulture, although I do admire the big ships, they make such satisfying targets
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Seriously though, I think too many players are fixated on the perceived need to earn enough credits to buy the big two ships - they think that is the ultimate end game and once they achieve that, they will be at the top of the food chain. Personally I would rather fight an Anaconda than a 3 Elite Cobra wing any day!
I agree with the bits regarding ships and equipment balance and I honestly think the post should have just kept it to that. It's really sad that this game had a pretty decent variety of weapons and equipment, only to have most of them be actually useless. Current ships and especially equipment being balanced better would go pretty far in making the game just more enjoyable and playable overall. Adding things such as new weapons would go even further.
I felt the same way as you for awhile - I was content with small ships (in the beginning, I actually wanted to play Elite like a small fighter pilot). However, after a bit, I exhausted my options with the smaller ships - and since I had tried them all (and tried almost anything in them), the only way for me to experience new content was to get a bigger ship. Now I'm in an FDL now (was in a Python earlier). I'm content with it - for now, and (like you) don't have much interest in the Anaconda. However, I'm actually running out of novel, interesting (for me) things to do..
Soopyy, I don't think I am the only player to have no real interest in getting the big ships. I just can't see the need to fly around in a Python or Anaconda, I am having too much fun flying my cheap as chips Vulture, although I do admire the big ships, they make such satisfying targets
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Seriously though, I think too many players are fixated on the perceived need to earn enough credits to buy the big two ships - they think that is the ultimate end game and once they achieve that, they will be at the top of the food chain. Personally I would rather fight an Anaconda than a 3 Elite Cobra wing any day!
PVP is literally the only thing keeping me in this game right now - and even my interest in that is wearing thin.
There seems to be a progression order for meta-gamers which looks something like this :
1) grind your way to the best trade ship
2) trade to buy new ships
3) trade to fund whatever activities you find fun
4) exhaust the novelty factors, move towards higher risk activities like pvp and piracy
5) get fed up with broken aspects of the game/bored in general
6) share experience on the forums and hope that someone has found a solution
7) wait for FD to fix/update the game
Problem is for me whenever I think of doing something I need to evaluate it against my current trade route. Should I spend X amount of hours earning Y amount less than I could trading?
Eventually (I hope) I will have enough credits to not have to worry about this, but my game "progression" still boils down to how many credits/ships I have.
1) grind your way to the best trade ship
2) trade to buy new ships
3) trade to fund whatever activities you find fun
4) exhaust the novelty factors, move towards higher risk activities like pvp and piracy
5) get fed up with broken aspects of the game/bored in general
6) share experience on the forums and hope that someone has found a solution
7) wait for FD to fix/update the game
Problem is for me whenever I think of doing something I need to evaluate it against my current trade route. Should I spend X amount of hours earning Y amount less than I could trading?
Eventually (I hope) I will have enough credits to not have to worry about this, but my game "progression" still boils down to how many credits/ships I have.
1. Cargp transport missions are dead imo. I've been doing them for over a month and nothing, nada... zip. On top of that the payout is wack, you'll get more if you're interdicted and win (assuming it's not the 200Cr Vulture that I keep finding).
2. Time sink, usually leads to having a bounty on your head.
3. You have to have loaded out your ship for it in advance, and you're probably not using missiles.
4. Grinding
5. Grinding
6. nerfed Grinding
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I agree with this, however the game is built around moving and exploring the space (Bruce enson). I want to move shop to another system, and I want all my ships to move with me so I don't have to spend hours relocating everything. I want to be able to do that effortlessly. If we had 20 systems I could see it being how it is, but when you have 4 or 5 ships and you find a system where you can trade and bounty hunt and build allies, you want your stuff there with you for easy swapping out. We need a way to access our ships when we move to another system. We should be able to select a "home base" and have the ability to change that ever so often, with timers of course like leaving a pledge has a timer. You find your place, you mark it as home base, you might need to be allied with the major faction.. don't care. You then have all your ships show up in the shipyard of the station you select as your home station. That would inspire me to move all over the place and do new things.
Also, I would like for HC to be shorter. You're basically abusing time/space, why wait? Pop in and pop out. I spend too much time now in HC and turning at stars. I consider something I want to do 200LY away and I change my mind because I don't want to spend that much real time getting there. We have the concept of FTL travel, why are we so limited to distance/time? I understand instances have to load and some things are just opportunities for the loading to take place, no problem, then give us SC boosters so we can get out of gravitational pull faster, stop ramping speed so damn slowly. Use a booster cell, get to 20c right away.
Also, why do we have to throttle up to engage SC or HC? If we can go from 200m/s to 8000c like that, why does it matter where our throttle is? Shouldn't it be speed dependent once we charge the FSD? When the FSD is charged, why do we have to charge it again if we want to cancel the jump? Where did the charge go? Do we regain power we lost or is it dissipated as heat? Why doesn't the ship heat signature reflect it?
Why get permitted to places like Sol when there's nothing going on there when you arrive? Why aren't there RES sites at Saturn? The one known ringed planet we all think of and it's useless.
Why is food so cheap to buy but in such high demand in some areas? It must be at least as easy to mine metal in space as to produce fish or meat or plants.
Why is the outfitting module selection full of basically useless stuff? Limpet transfer? Who's running around out there transferring fuel? Anyone? Fuel tanks are great, but why can't we sell back the fuel we bought at the previous station when we sell the tank?
Why does a bigger ship have a longer jump range? Are drives more efficient at larger sizes on more hull mass?
Once you are up to speed in space, shouldn't all drives be equal?
Why does a longer jump require more fuel? Shouldn't the fuel be used to get mass in motion and stop it? Doesn't that happen once per jump, regardless of the range? I know about the nav beacon, but it's just a weird concept someone dreamed up.
Speaking of that, why can't we purchase our own beacons and place them where we want to be able to jump to? So you can trade really fast now, so what? You get two nav beacons, you can put them near your station and jump there. You can collect the beacons as well and put them elsewhere. Why not? Range limited of course, but not retardedly range limited.
Addressing this because i thought about it. I believe its because it takes roughly the same amount of time to jump 2LY as 20LY. So something needs to be different. Either you spend more time in Hyperspace according to the jump distance, which means more wasted real life time or you simply spend more fuel to get there faster.
"Starting with only a small starship and a few credits, players do whatever it takes to earn the skill, knowledge, wealth and power to survive in a futuristic cutthroat galaxy and to stand among the ranks of the Elite."
It says "survive". Nowhere does it say that the end goal is to 100% complete the game. and i could argue that there is no such thing as 100% completion. This game isn't a normal kind of game, and it shouldn't turn into one.
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Have you ever flown up to a nav beacon? they won't fit through your ship's cargo hatch.
It says "survive". Nowhere does it say that the end goal is to 100% complete the game. and i could argue that there is no such thing as 100% completion. This game isn't a normal kind of game, and it shouldn't turn into one.
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Have you ever flown up to a nav beacon? they won't fit through your ship's cargo hatch.
Sounds like meta-gamers are the ones who contribute the most to the game by doing research, making strategy guides, developing tools for other players to use, etc..
Just by coming onto the forums and gaining more knowledge about the game you are "meta-gaming"
nada/zip for missions that give anything up to 100k for simply flying from a to b?
no bounty because I only shoot when I have a clear line of fire
tried missiles and found them less useful than cannons
ANY activity than has to be done more than once is a grind no matter how many credits it makes unless doing one mission/kill etc gives you enough credits for a Python. Is that what you want? Hopefully not.
So what if it takes me a year to get a Python, it means I always have something I am working towards. If I could get one inside a month of my normal play time of a few hours per week then I would have already stopped playing. If someone wants "max level and best in slot items" in a short amount of time there are many games out there for that sort of gaming. Go play one of those.
I never really understood a lot of things with the game as you're pointing out. A part of me thinks that the pilots are supposed to be nomadic in some way. But it also makes the pilots almost inhuman because they do not have anywhere to call home, and the game purposely seems limiting in this aspect. But thats the surprising thing, because when something PP comes out, where each NPC has a home planet, players are then area-bound to those areas of conflict. But even so, the players have roadblocks placed through the design of the game itself which do nothing but restrict.
To be honest, Elite Dangerous is by far one of the most restrictive space sims out. The only thing which is more restrictive would be mission-bound space simulation games like Freespace or I-War. The aspect of freedom is an illusion, you're completely controlled and restricted on what you can and cannot do by design, all of which is FDs engineering. RNG via USS, inability to form guilds/outfits, storyline narrative, etc. All of these main aspects of the game and ideas are completely under the control of FD. The only thing players have control over is the ship they fly/how they fly it. FD has gone so far as to even impose virtual speeding laws to dictate how players should dock, lest they receive fines.
Really. The players are NPCs and the NPCs are players.
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I think you are correct. That is why you use less fuel while jumping a longer distance in "eco. mode".
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Soopyy, I don't think I am the only player to have no real interest in getting the big ships. I just can't see the need to fly around in a Python or Anaconda, I am having too much fun flying my cheap as chips Vulture, although I do admire the big ships, they make such satisfying targets
.
Seriously though, I think too many players are fixated on the perceived need to earn enough credits to buy the big two ships - they think that is the ultimate end game and once they achieve that, they will be at the top of the food chain. Personally I would rather fight an Anaconda than a 3 Elite Cobra wing any day!
This is precisely the sentiment the OP is talking about though. You're putting the blame on the players for becoming "fixated" on the "wrong" stuff. The reason people become fixated on progress (ships, credits, rank) is because the game lacks content - stuff to motivate you, stuff to do. This then descends into a pointless argument about imagination or "making your own fun," which is unnecessarily condescending and patronising, and doesn't move the argument on. In any case, I'm not so sure that being unable to fill the gaps the game leaves in terms of content is a failure of imagination on the part of the player. Some players, myself included, just can't get over the sense of disappointment which comes from the perceived "wasted opportunity" to create a "living breathing universe".
In these situations, Occam's razor applies: which is the simpler, and thus more plausible, explanation: large numbers of players are inexplicably "doing it wrong"? Or, the game isn't giving players anything "right" to do?
Why get permitted to places like Sol when there's nothing going on there when you arrive? Why aren't there RES sites at Saturn? The one known ringed planet we all think of and it's useless.
- I imagine saturn was mined out long ago, and we can't mine ice rings yet.
Why is food so cheap to buy but in such high demand in some areas? It must be at least as easy to mine metal in space as to produce fish or meat or plants.
- Buying food from a planet dedicated to farming will net you cheap prices, but hauling it to other places isn't cheap, and it takes time.
Why is the outfitting module selection full of basically useless stuff? Limpet transfer? Who's running around out there transferring fuel? Anyone? Fuel tanks are great, but why can't we sell back the fuel we bought at the previous station when we sell the tank?
- The fuel rats save people who run out of fuel while exploring, it is very useful.
Why does a bigger ship have a longer jump range? Are drives more efficient at larger sizes on more hull mass?
- " an object at rest tends to stay at rest unless it is given a swift kick up the "
Once you are up to speed in space, shouldn't all drives be equal?
- all drives are equal in once in hyperspace and supercruise, it just takes variable amounts of energy to start.
Why does a longer jump require more fuel? Shouldn't the fuel be used to get mass in motion and stop it? Doesn't that happen once per jump, regardless of the range? I know about the nav beacon, but it's just a weird concept someone dreamed up.
- I don't know much about witch/hyper space, but refer to the answer above. longer distance in the same time? one hell of a kick that drive creates.
- I imagine saturn was mined out long ago, and we can't mine ice rings yet.
Why is food so cheap to buy but in such high demand in some areas? It must be at least as easy to mine metal in space as to produce fish or meat or plants.
- Buying food from a planet dedicated to farming will net you cheap prices, but hauling it to other places isn't cheap, and it takes time.
Why is the outfitting module selection full of basically useless stuff? Limpet transfer? Who's running around out there transferring fuel? Anyone? Fuel tanks are great, but why can't we sell back the fuel we bought at the previous station when we sell the tank?
- The fuel rats save people who run out of fuel while exploring, it is very useful.
Why does a bigger ship have a longer jump range? Are drives more efficient at larger sizes on more hull mass?
- " an object at rest tends to stay at rest unless it is given a swift kick up the "
Once you are up to speed in space, shouldn't all drives be equal?
- all drives are equal in once in hyperspace and supercruise, it just takes variable amounts of energy to start.
Why does a longer jump require more fuel? Shouldn't the fuel be used to get mass in motion and stop it? Doesn't that happen once per jump, regardless of the range? I know about the nav beacon, but it's just a weird concept someone dreamed up.
- I don't know much about witch/hyper space, but refer to the answer above. longer distance in the same time? one hell of a kick that drive creates.
But this stuff is all in-game and so not meta (by definition)
Examples of meta-play in ED would be (like mentioned in the last sentence); Using a 3rd party website to find a trade route, using a pirate's twitch feed to bounty hunt him, coming to the forum to ask about a "good" loadout for a particular ship, etc.
The type of player that does this usually has less fun (at the base level), because they neglect the aspects of creativity and imagination that are crucial to entertainment.