A simple analysis of griefing acts in ED

[RamoRua]

The presence of griefers can be observed in almost every online game, but in our beloved elite dangerous that presence is becoming rather disruptive. In other words, griefers are affecting the game experience.

Why is this happening:
The happiness griefers experienced surpasses the hassles inflicted by the penalties.
(Most griefers are endgame players with nothing to grind and a lot of credits/assets to waste )

The exact reason:
Penalties from murdering CMDRs are not harsh enough.
(Can be considered as a flaw of the game’s multiplayer mode balancing, we cannot blame the community or griefers for this)

The simplest way to solve this:
Increase penalties of murdering CMDRs.
(Better to increase the financial penalties exponentially or logarithmically so that even endgame griefers cannot afford consecutive murders(eliminates professional griefers) )
(For crimes other than killing clean CMDRs, such as accidentals(collisions, friendly fire etc), using hatch breakers on or dealing damage to clean CMDRs(piracy jobs), regular crime punishments should be ok)

PvP has so much potential in this game, let’s not take that in the griefers’ way.
However, this does not mark the end of PvP. We can even encourage PvP under the law(restrictions applied by pilot’s federation) to prevent griefing.
Some popular systems (shinrarta, deciat etc.)can be listed as special PvP systems where CMDRs can freely engage with lowered rebuy costs, zero bounty gain etc. pilots federation could even set some exclusive rewards for exercising in those systems in open play.

Last but not least, I am hoping that the developers can make some further adjustments/ tweaks to the current crime punishment rules(especially clean CMDR kills).

For those who read this long post: Happy new year and have a wonderful 3306.

 

[Robert Maynard]

PvP has so much potential in this game, let’s not take that in the griefers’ way.
However, this does not mark the end of PvP. We can even encourage PvP under the law(restrictions applied by pilot’s federation) to prevent griefing.
Some popular systems (shinrarta, deciat etc.)can be listed as special PvP systems where CMDRs can freely engage with lowered rebuy costs, zero bounty gain etc. pilots federation could even set some exclusive rewards for exercising in those systems in open play.

Making those systems "cheap" in terms of rebuy would facilitate rather than mitigate their antics - and the rebuy is often the least of a player's concerns with respect to being destroyed.

If the idea is to further discourage players who eschew PvP from entering these systems in Open then it would probably have the desired effect.

 

[Kelster87]

And yet another thread about this issue I've never seen. Ganked once in 6 months of play, and that was my own fault..

Perhaps you are making a bigger issue of it than it really is.

 

[Klarg]

The presence of griefers can be observed in almost every online game, but in our beloved elite dangerous that presence is becoming rather disruptive. In other words, griefers are affecting the game experience.

Why is this happening:
The happiness griefers experienced surpasses the hassles inflicted by the penalties.
(Most griefers are endgame players with nothing to grind and a lot of credits/assets to waste )

The exact reason:
Penalties from murdering CMDRs are not harsh enough.
(Can be considered as a flaw of the game’s multiplayer mode balancing, we cannot blame the community or griefers for this)

The simplest way to solve this:
Increase penalties of murdering CMDRs.
(Better to increase the financial penalties exponentially or logarithmically so that even endgame griefers cannot afford consecutive murders(eliminates professional griefers) )
(For crimes other than killing clean CMDRs, such as accidentals(collisions, friendly fire etc), using hatch breakers on or dealing damage to clean CMDRs(piracy jobs), regular crime punishments should be ok)

PvP has so much potential in this game, let’s not take that in the griefers’ way.
However, this does not mark the end of PvP. We can even encourage PvP under the law(restrictions applied by pilot’s federation) to prevent griefing.
Some popular systems (shinrarta, deciat etc.)can be listed as special PvP systems where CMDRs can freely engage with lowered rebuy costs, zero bounty gain etc. pilots federation could even set some exclusive rewards for exercising in those systems in open play.

Last but not least, I am hoping that the developers can make some further adjustments/ tweaks to the current crime punishment rules(especially clean CMDR kills).

For those who read this long post: Happy new year and have a wonderful 3306.

I think your initial supposition that griefing's "presence is becoming rather disruptive. In other words, griefers are affecting the game experience." Is wrong. I see more complaints on the forums than incidences in game. Murdering other commanders is not griefing. I have been "ganked" sure, interdict and murdered. but this is the game working as intended. I do agree the crime and punishment system is pretty weak, but don't think your suggestions are particularly going to solve that.

 

[M00ka]

And yet another thread about this issue I've never seen. Ganked once in 6 months of play, and that was my own fault..

Perhaps you are making a bigger issue of it than it really is.

Just because you haven't personally experienced it doesn't mean the issue doesn't exist. After all we have enough bragging that they are griefers, telling everyone the way to survive, how to kit out and engineer your ship, they wouldn't be telling the community this information if it wasn't relevant would they!

Not disputing that the issue may be blown out of proportions, but it can't be dismissed either just because you personally haven't seen it. Trust me I have been told that here enough times to know - try telling someone complaining about a bug in the game that you haven't seen it, quickest way to get roasted here.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Why is this happening:
The happiness griefers experienced surpasses the hassles inflicted by the penalties.
(Most griefers are endgame players with nothing to grind and a lot of credits/assets to waste )

The exact reason:
Penalties from murdering CMDRs are not harsh enough.
(Can be considered as a flaw of the game’s multiplayer mode balancing, we cannot blame the community or griefers for this)

How can you punish griefers who don't care about either money or being blown up (i.e. most of them?) You are suggesting to punish them you...blow them up.

Why not actually balance the game, and promote better skills (and teamwork) to resist attacks?

 

[Vandaahl]

Just because you haven't personally experienced it doesn't mean the issue doesn't exist. After all we have enough bragging that they are griefers, telling everyone the way to survive, how to kit out and engineer your ship, they wouldn't be telling the community this information if it wasn't relevant would they!

Not disputing that the issue may be blown out of proportions, but it can't be dismissed either just because you personally haven't seen it. Trust me I have been told that here enough times to know - try telling someone complaining about a bug in the game that you haven't seen it, quickest way to get roasted here.

Its a non issue. Whats griefing and what not is determined on the receiving end, and the receiving end has all the tools to stop what is giefing him/her/it.
So there is no problem that needs to be solved since the fixes are there already.

The "problem" is, people want to fly open untouched, you can't fix that (other then kitting out and gitting gut).

 

[Shiro Akai]

I'm a griefer*
I take stock Sidewinder
I bump here and there to reduce hull as much as possible
I fly dangerously at 99 m/s near the mailslot
I bump at big ships
I got destroyed
You get destroyed by station because of murder crime (truly, who else is flying under speed limit?)
I take stock Sidewinder
...

How your solution affect me?

* - except I'm not.

 

[Stigbob]

Player killers drive other paying customers away from MMO's, FDEV knew this as they started out which is why they gave us modes, block and one shared BGS.

This is a problem that was already solved pre-launch you just need to use the tools FDEV provided you with.

 

[M00ka]

Its a non issue. Whats griefing and what not is determined on the receiving end, and the receiving end has all the tools to stop what is giefing him/her/it.
So there is no problem that needs to be solved since there fixes are there already.

The problem is, people want to fly open untouched, you can't fix that.

Just because you don't have a problem with griefers (and I don't either BTW) doesn't mean there isn't a problem, unless you are implying that everyone who is complaining are liars, alarmists or trolls. Whether is issue is real, perceived or totally imagined is really a moot point, there are enough people complaining about the situation for it to be discussed, not just dismissed out of hand.

Think of all the different aspects of the game that people continuously and damn near religiously complain about: FSS, Arx, Storage, LEP's, Communication - and that is just scratching the very top of the list. Are all of those issues to be dismissed because some here haven't experienced them or don't think they are valid problems?

Regarding your last sentence, I think it is more that people want to fly in Open they way they want, not they way a small minority are demanding they fly. Most are not saying ban PvP, just asking for PvP to be meaningful and some consequences for those that break the rules (okay perceived or imagined rules, but hopefully you understand what I mean).

 

[Dillon Fallon]

I fly in open and most of my time is spent supporting anarchy factions via BGS. Part of this is attacking other player supported factions.

Sometimes I'm wanted, sometimes I'm clean. However if you see me in your system and you support a faction that isn't an anarchy I'm likely there to do you some damage. Any solution should allow players to attempt to blow up my ship to remove me from the system even when I'm clean.

 

[Morbad]

You should probably define the term before trying to analyze it.

 

[Stigbob]

Just because you don't have a problem with griefers (and I don't either BTW) doesn't mean there isn't a problem, unless you are implying that everyone who is complaining are liars, alarmists or trolls. Whether is issue is real, perceived or totally imagined is really a moot point, there are enough people complaining about the situation for it to be discussed, not just dismissed out of hand.

Think of all the different aspects of the game that people continuously and damn near religiously complain about: FSS, Arx, Storage, LEP's, Communication - and that is just scratching the very top of the list. Are all of those issues to be dismissed because some here haven't experienced them or don't think they are valid problems?

Regarding your last sentence, I think it is more that people want to fly in Open they way they want, not they way a small minority are demanding they fly. Most are not saying ban PvP, just asking for PvP to be meaningful and some consequences for those that break the rules (okay perceived or imagined rules, but hopefully you understand what I mean).

True, but the people who want to fly in open without the possibility of being shot at are just as bad as the people who want everyone forced into open. They don't understand how the game operates and what tools are available combined with a desire to inflict their chosen style on others.

We were given choice, choosing to change it for everyone else isn't an acceptable suggestion which is why FDEV have never touched this debate other than to tell people about the tools on offer repeatedly over the last five years.

Its a failure in pre-purchase research, PEBCAK basically.

 

[Genar-Hofoen]

Here's the Extra Credits video on balancing MMO's. It's been posted here before.

May or may not be relevant to Elite: Dangerous. Frontier has to juggle the amount of Killers, Explorers, Socialisers, and Achievers in the game.

To be honest I'm not too sure what the "proper" levels of each type should be for ED.

On the one hand, ED is set in a "cut-throat galaxy" - a hive of scum and villainy - so you'd probably expect there to be more Killers and Achievers and less Socialisers and Explorers.

On the other hand, Frontier included a ton of things in ED which appeals to Explorers, and probably Socialisers - 400 million star systems and a pretty darned great simulation of a galaxy. Pretty darned good simulation of what it'd be like to fly a spaceship. Amongst other things.

At the same time, we all can't be placed into a strict category of Killer, Explorer, Socialiser, or Achiever - we're all going to be a combination of those at various levels, I'd imagine.

So it looks like ED sort of contradicts itself in a few ways - it's a complex interaction between presenting a pretty good simulation of a galaxy with billions of locations on the "map", but supposed to be set in a cruel, harsh, cut-throat galaxy where life is grim and depressing. Have Frontier got the mix done right? If not, could it be fixed? And how would you "fix" it?

Personally, I have no problems with Killers - because I'm not that interested in Socialising so I'm happy to play in Solo as an Explorer and Achiever. I do have a bit of Killer in me but that's against NPC's. ED for me is a single-player game, like its predecessors, and I play it that way.

Anyway, here's the vid...

 

[Ian Doncaster]

The simplest way to solve this:
Increase penalties of murdering CMDRs.
(Better to increase the financial penalties exponentially or logarithmically so that even endgame griefers cannot afford consecutive murders(eliminates professional griefers) )
(For crimes other than killing clean CMDRs, such as accidentals(collisions, friendly fire etc), using hatch breakers on or dealing damage to clean CMDRs(piracy jobs), regular crime punishments should be ok)

Two problems - if it was that simple, they'd already have done it:

1) Murdering a clean CMDR is not necessarily "griefing" - there are a number of legitimate and encouraged in-game reasons to do it.

For example, if you think piracy is okay, then player pirates (who never kill traders) may be hunted down by player bounty hunters. Player pirates being attacked by a player bounty hunter may clearly legitimately (in the sense of "it's illegal, but the game should not discourage it beyond that") kill their attacker.

Similarly if you get a 200 credit PvE trespass bounty and I spot this and decide to take out the evil scum that you are, you should not get a billion credit bounty if it turns out my bounty hunting hauler is not up to the job. No, not even if I attack you with it ten times in a row.


2) The weakest ships can be taken out easily by an A-rated unengineered frag Vulture, which can be obtained virtually instantly with a reset account. With friends dropping in wing missions, a Krait, Mamba or FDL is also easy to get. Conversely, a moderately toughened multirole ship can easily escape from any attack, even by engineered ships. The number of targets who are flying ships which can survive a quick-reset alt but can't survive a fully engineered attacker is pretty low.

On the other hand - as we saw with the last "make C&P tougher" patch in 3.0 - people who do not think of themselves as criminals are often hit particularly hard by anti-criminal measures when they end up accidentally committing a crime and have no experience of how to mitigate the consequences. (See also station ramming, where the technical "murderer" generally feels far worse off because of the instantly and aggressively applied C&P, than the person who deliberately rammed them)

 

[Kelster87]

Just because you haven't personally experienced it doesn't mean the issue doesn't exist. After all we have enough bragging that they are griefers, telling everyone the way to survive, how to kit out and engineer your ship, they wouldn't be telling the community this information if it wasn't relevant would they!

Not disputing that the issue may be blown out of proportions, but it can't be dismissed either just because you personally haven't seen it. Trust me I have been told that here enough times to know - try telling someone complaining about a bug in the game that you haven't seen it, quickest way to get roasted here.

Well, given that most of the complaints I seem to see about the issue come from people who claim to no longer play, or admit they haven't been in Open for some time, I really am left wondering. Been to/through Deciat I don't know how many times, lucky to see another Commander. Recent Golconda CG? Again, darn lucky to find human Commander.

And now I'm going to ask how YOU define a griefer? I'm willing to bet it's different to me.. Interdict me and kill me for no apparent reason? Oh dear, I got ganked..No grief there though. If the same Commander does it more than once, that might make the grade.

I never said it didn't happen, just that it seems the issue is way overblown by some compared to the reality of those of us who play Open.

Oh, and another thing.. I started playing ED with the very fixed idea that other commanders would try and kill me, it was up to me to prevent it. Part of the reason I have a multi-role ship - and explorer with guns and shields. Seemed a sensible choice when flying out in to wider galaxy.

To those doing oh "I didn't consent to PvP.", well, what can I say, I didn't consent to the drunk bigot at the pub punching me for visibly being a lesbian.. Mass shooting victims rarely consent to being shot. Pretty sure I never consented to being tailended by a 44t Denning coach as a teen. Non consensual things happen. Yes, I know it's a game, but why shouldn't it reflect real life?

 

[Morbad]

Just because you don't have a problem with griefers (and I don't either BTW) doesn't mean there isn't a problem

I have a big problem with those who intentionally go out of their way to cause problems for other players. I just don't think it's generally possible to 'grief' by going after in-game characters in any scenario that could conceivably be in-character.

Most of the griefing I've seen has been cases where the greifers were cheating (usually not via hacking), hurling OOC insults/threats, or abusing otherwise legitimate game mechanisms (chat, log off-timers, block lists) to harass people.

 

[Stealthie]

And yet another thread about this issue I've never seen. Ganked once in 6 months of play, and that was my own fault..

Perhaps you are making a bigger issue of it than it really is.

I've never had Polio, therefore I think the danger of it is exaggerated.

Truth is, I doubt many people spend a lot of time getting ganked/griefed/watever.
Trouble is that when it does happen, it's often such an absurd, farcical, scenario that it really serves to demonstrate how glaringly flawed the game is in this regard.

There can be, for example, a bunch of griefers station-ganking for hours on end while dozens of system security ships happily fly around in SC, apparently oblivious to the crime-wave occuring outside their home-station.
Or, perhaps, heaps of ships getting wiped out at an engineer's base while the engineer apparently doesn't feel the need to open fire on the attackers.

It's a bit silly to suggest stuff like this shouldn't be fixed just cos it doesn't happen to a lot of people a lot of the time.

 

[Vandaahl]

Just because you don't have a problem with griefers (and I don't either BTW) doesn't mean there isn't a problem, unless you are implying that everyone who is complaining are liars, alarmists or trolls. Whether is issue is real, perceived or totally imagined is really a moot point, there are enough people complaining about the situation for it to be discussed, not just dismissed out of hand.

Thats not even remotely what I said or implied. Besides, it works both ways, just because some think there is a problem doesn't mean that there is one.

I don't know of a game that provides the players with so many tools to prevent 'griefing'. The punishment system has been overhauled already, to the point where one can wonder who is punished more, a griefer, or the casual player who miss fires?

Discuss all you want, I never told anyone to shut up. After all that has been done I can't take the "problem" serious anymore. Nor should FD, there are bigger issues to fix. I wonder with the current state of networking how anyone could be griefed, but hey ho.

 

[Ziggy Stardust]

Some popular systems (shinrarta, deciat etc.)can be listed as special PvP systems where CMDRs can freely engage with lowered rebuy costs, zero bounty gain etc. pilots federation could even set some exclusive rewards for exercising in those systems in open play.

That's a bit of an odd suggestion isn't it?

I mean the Pilot's Federation nominating the home of the Pilots Federation as a system where you can murder other members of the Pilot's Federation at a discount. I'd rather think the PF would revoke permits for those who murder other CMDRs in their home system.