A Simple Solution to Combat Logging

[Total_dogus]

Mods should have closed this thread 10 pages ago.

agreed.

 

[Rat Catcher]

Mods should have closed this thread 10 pages ago.

My thought was 19 pages ago...

 

[Ezren]

You posted snippets, none of which contradicted my claims. You need to calm down.

Let's test that. Contradicting those claims, that is. Let's harken back to that claim of yours:

restrictions on combat logging is not something anyone signed up to in the EULA so there is nothing anyone can do to stop it

Your claim.

it is indeed an exploit.

You argued that Combat Logging is an exploit.

7.3.3 By accepting these terms and conditions .... ii) agree to be bound by the Community Codes of Conduct for the Game, the latest version of which may be viewed here.

We do not tolerate the use of any exploits

The EULA and the CoC specifically state that exploits are not tolerated. And thus, are part of the EULA.

Projecting your frustration on others does nothing to change the facts. And the facts are, I can show where the EULA supports my claim that it does encompass combat logging.

You have been incapable of backing up your point with anything but stories.

 

[Total_dogus]

Let's test that. Contradicting those claims, that is. Let's harken back to that claim of yours:


Your claim.

You argued that Combat Logging is an exploit.


The EULA and the CoC specifically state that exploits are not tolerated. And thus, are part of the EULA.

Projecting your frustration on others does nothing to change the facts. And the facts are, I can show where the EULA supports my claim that it does encompass combat logging.

You have been incapable of backing up your point with anything but stories.

There is quite a prominent caveat attached to the statement on exploits in code of conduct. It relates to gaining an advantage, not disengaging with another player.

This is all quite pointless. Combat logging will continue to happen. You can accept it as part of playing an mmo or continue getting mad and upset about it. I think you should relax. Maybe listen to some relaxing music and lie down. It’s really not worth getting this excited over it.

 

[Simplystyc]

Let's test that. Contradicting those claims, that is. Let's harken back to that claim of yours:


Your claim.

You argued that Combat Logging is an exploit.


The EULA and the CoC specifically state that exploits are not tolerated. And thus, are part of the EULA.

Projecting your frustration on others does nothing to change the facts. And the facts are, I can show where the EULA supports my claim that it does encompass combat logging.

You have been incapable of backing up your point with anything but stories.

Can you give it a rest?

Combat Logging= Bad

Nuff Said. Go home. Drink a Coffee. You seem a little obsessed.

 

[kurush]

Annoyingly this version of a PvP flag is probably a considerable pain to implement, you have to copy all the current game state and deal with cases like what happens to third party commanders in the area? I imagine all that could be dealt with but would be tricky to sort out, still, one can dream

In fact it would be dirt cheap to implement. Game already knows how to split the instances when some peer communication is lost. Watch your network log in Shinrarta in open and you'll see it happening. Putting a punching bag there should be fairly easy. But imagine the sound of all crying griefers that it would cause? Just a thought about that makes me smile

 

[Total_dogus]

In fact it would be dirt cheap to implement. Game already knows how to split the instances when some peer communication is lost. Putting a punching bag there should be fairly easy. But imagine the sound of all crying griefers that it would cause? Just a thought about that makes me smile

I really believe being wanted should expand beyond the one system, if you murder another player. Black Desert has a pvp flag but not having it on does not mean you cannot be attacked by a player. It simply means if a player does attack they get punished and if they kill you they get attacked by guards.Something similar could be easy enough. Killing a player with a flag at the off position means all NPC cops start chasing and attacking a griefer within, say,100ly....even all allied systems attack them.

There are ways to do it. FDev just haven’t really bothered addressing something most other MMOs seem to cope with much better.

 

[Ezren]

There is quite a prominent caveat attached to the statement on exploits in code of conduct. It relates to gaining an advantage, not disengaging with another player.

Ah, another vague reference. Here, allow me:

We do not tolerate the use of any exploits or taking advantage of any bugs in the game to generate a significant player advantage.

Since "or" is included in the statement, it can be interpreted completely independently of what you called "caveats". Actually, instead of showing all the ways this could be read to hammer it home, let's just simplify the point: not exploding seems like a pretty significantly advantageous to the player, compared to exploding.

But you're really stretching to try and shield your opinion from reality. Oh, and keep in mind, you brought this back up. It's odd you're calling to drop the subject, after reintroducing it. Another bit of projecting?

 

[Bryan K]

Let's test that. Contradicting those claims, that is. Let's harken back to that claim of yours:


Your claim.

You argued that Combat Logging is an exploit.


The EULA and the CoC specifically state that exploits are not tolerated. And thus, are part of the EULA.

Projecting your frustration on others does nothing to change the facts. And the facts are, I can show where the EULA supports my claim that it does encompass combat logging.

You have been incapable of backing up your point with anything but stories.

The point is Frontier do not say that it is an exploit in the EULA. Therefore combat-logging is not defined in the EULA at all, as has been pointed out for years.

 

[Ozric]

I'm not closing the thread just because you can't discuss things like adults. Knock off the personal slants and keep it on topic, or you won't be posting in this thread again.

 

[Total_dogus]

Ah, another vague reference. Here, allow me:

Since "or" is included in the statement, it can be interpreted completely independently of what you called "caveats". Actually, instead of showing all the ways this could be read to hammer it home, let's just simplify the point: not exploding seems like a pretty significantly advantageous to the player, compared to exploding.

But you're really stretching to try and shield your opinion from reality. Oh, and keep in mind, you brought this back up. It's odd you're calling to drop the subject, after reintroducing it. Another bit of projecting?

I was responding to someone else. The “or” does not result in the caveat only being applied to one of the listed options. It captures both.

This really is becoming slightly silly now. Arguments about grammar and semantics show how far it has deteriorated. As has been stated, you can accept it or not. Being unpleasant to me isn’t going to change the situation. I don’t really understand why you’re getting so irate over a EULA. I did not anticipate it eliciting such emotion.

 

[Eliza]

Yea I had never been disconnected right after being interdicted so I went into PG to finish what I was doing. I can't remember which color ship was my error tbh but it was "lost connection to the matchmaking server" errors all that day. Funny thing is I had been blowed up by this particular cmdr twice before and was probably going to have to buy my little DbX again if I couldn't get away. The 2nd time they got me I was actively out looking for them for some sweet revenge too and still lost the fight lol.

But you stood your man instead whining on the forums about "I got griefed"! Respect, Commander o7

 

[Werewolf13]

I have a quite unreliable internet connection. I'd be very miffed if I was winning a fight and my connection dropped only to find my ship had been blown to smithereens in my absence.

They you Might want to get a better internet provider, shell out for a better quality connection with your current provider or rethink plaing Elite Dangerous.

 

[Hossi]

The point is Frontier do not say that it is an exploit in the EULA. Therefore combat-logging is not defined in the EULA at all, as has been pointed out for years.

No, but they stated here on this forum that clogging (by terminating the client, not via menulog) is an "undesirable exploit"

It was posted here on this forum by Sandro, but apparently the post didn't survive the forum migration. You can still find the full text on reddit

The most relevant part of this

First things first: we do consider this an undesirable exploit. It’s not “part of the game”.
Because we don’t have an all powerful server running the moment-to-moment game play simulation, there is no infallible arbiter to take control of a player’s ship when they ungracefully exit.

Spoiler: Full text here

Hello Commanders!

This is a quick update to let you guys know what we’re looking at regarding the issue of “combat logging”.

For clarity’s sake, “combat logging” is when a Commander ungracefully exits the game (e.g. using ALT + F4 then shutting down the game process) to avoid defeat, destruction and damage.

Commanders might use this exploit the moment they are interdicted or the moment before they are about to be destroyed.

Although this is flagged primarily as a multiplayer concern, the issues (and solutions) apply equally to the single player game.

First things first: we do consider this an undesirable exploit. It’s not “part of the game”.

Because we don’t have an all powerful server running the moment-to-moment game play simulation, there is no infallible arbiter to take control of a player’s ship when they ungracefully exit.

So what we’re doing is logging telemetry that will help us detect when this exploit is explicitly being used.

Right now, all we’re doing (and have already started doing) is looking at and implementing methods of collecting and analysing data.

At some point, however, we will start to take action against Commanders using this exploit. I can only suggest that you should avoid using this exploit if you want to avoid any penalties issued for its use. I'll just repeat: please avoid combat logging - we're taking this issue very seriously.

On a related, but separate track, we’re looking at introducing benefits to Commanders that persevere and stick it out through dangerous encounters, as well as general credit costs and rewards balancing.

I’m not quite ready to talk about these in more detail just now. Obviously though, they can never counter the potential costs of ship destruction, but we want to look at a range of disincentives and incentives both to counter this issue.

I hope this helps clarify our position a little.

The original link was this here, but it doesn't work anymore

 

[M00ka]

They you Might want to get a better internet provider, shell out for a better quality connection with your current provider or rethink plaing Elite Dangerous.

So since there is always a chance that the internet and/or the power could go down due to circumstances outside of anyone's control, Commander Werewolf13 you should seriously rethink bout playing Elite Dangerous

 

[Werewolf13]

So since there is always a chance that the internet and/or the power could go down due to circumstances outside of anyone's control, Commander Werewolf13 you should seriously rethink bout playing Elite Dangerous

Well - if I were an habitual Combat Logger - which I am not - never having done it once since I started playing ED in Jan 2015 you might have a point. But I don't CL - ever - so you don't, have a point that is.

Oh - and as far as this goes:

there is always a chance that the internet and/or the power could go down due to circumstances outside of anyone's control

- yeah providers fail, backbones go down. phone company DSL sux, power goes out but it happens so very rarely that it really isn't an issue regarding combat logging and everyone is subject to those things just like they are to tornados, hurricanes, earthquakes, super volcanos going off, aliens invading, zombie apocalpses.... etc etc etc. So none of what you said here

there is always a chance that the internet and/or the power could go down due to circumstances outside of anyone's control

is relevant either.

Got a crummy internet connection that dumps one every other hour or even every other day - well - I already suggested a very reasonable course of action to resolve that problem.

 

[Riverside]

So since there is always a chance that the internet and/or the power could go down due to circumstances outside of anyone's control, Commander Werewolf13 you should seriously rethink bout playing Elite Dangerous

The thing with the 'certain death' choice, which I agree wouldn't be popular, is that to a PvPer ship destruction is not a big deal at all. From the perspective of those that are most frustrated by CLogging having accidental disconnects result in rebuy is just fine.

For the rest of the playerbase it isn't of course, and I don't think it's reasonable to expect an explorer (for example) to lose their progress if there is an accidental disconnection while close to a star (when the ship is also in danger).

 

[Bryan K]

No, but they stated here on this forum that clogging (by terminating the client, not via menulog) is an "undesirable exploit"

It was posted here on this forum by Sandro, but apparently the post didn't survive the forum migration. You can still find the full text on reddit

The most relevant part of this




The original link was this here, but it doesn't work anymore

And as I said earlier, a forum post isn’t a legally-binding document. It has to be spelled out in the EULA or it doesn’t have any real power.

There’s a fair bit of vagueness like that throughout the EULA. Kind of guts it, but that matches well with FDev’s timid approach to player management. They police neither side.

 

[[VR] Mad Life Crisis]

I went from private group to open and have been playing in open for about a year now. I've only had one PvP encounter, which I found enjoyable. I got interdicted, and stood my ground against a bigger engineered ship. Logging out didn't enter my mind. Surely that just spoils the point?

Anyway, I no nuffin' so save the arrows for someone else but, what about this?... Timers change according to how much shield/hull is left? If (I'm no coder, so sue me) a timer starts as soon as the first blow is dealt, then if someone logs out with, say 10% hull, they get less time than someone logging out with 70%. ???

People playing in open shouldn't deliberately log out anyway. It reminds me of footballers falling over in the goal area to force a penalty. In the end, no one respects them.

 

[Eliza]

Oh - and as far as this goes: - yeah providers fail, backbones go down. phone company DSL sux, power goes out but it happens so very rarely that it really isn't an issue regarding combat logging and everyone is subject to those things just like they are to tornados, hurricanes, earthquakes, super volcanos going off, aliens invading, zombie apocalpses.... etc etc etc. So none of what you said here is relevant either.

Got a crummy internet connection that dumps one every other hour or even every other day - well - I already suggested a very reasonable course of action to resolve that problem.

Oh Geez...You do not have the slightest idea HOW often a landline can fail. I work for an isp and I can tell you a connection-loss in a minute-interval for WEEKS if not MONTH, due to bad landlines provided by the landline-carrier is more common as you think. It's my daily job to take care of these lines. It's literally a fight against windmills.

Regarding the second point-out: According to my "costumers", a failed internet-connection is far more worse than all mentioned incidences combined.