A statement regarding Salvation and Aden Tanner

[Julian McCoy]

Guardians tried this, it didn't work, the goids seem to only know the language of war once they want area's of space or encounter people in the area's they want.

This is what Ram Tah, who manufactures weaponry designed to fight Thargoids - and therefore profits from them being the enemy - tells you.

Until there is an independent, transparent and public investigation to confirm these findings, they cannot be considered legitimate.

 

[Julian McCoy]

Excuse the double-post but I can't get multi-quote working.

They all are as bad as each other Aegis recognising they only attack agressors decide to market targeting and weapons

Salvation takes it one further and adds a system nuke to the mix

This is why we attempted to prevent both sides from engaging either eachother, or the Thargoids, so that we could install Hind Co-operative as a neutral third party.

In this case the lesser of two evils is Aegis, as from recent GalNet news articles and leaked documents from the Baumann Inquiry - it is explained they were actively attempting to communicate with the Thargoids rather than immediately engage. I just cannot understand why they didn't tell us this at the time, then we would've been far more lenient on them.

There has been far too much aggression on all fronts, I tried to provide an alternative non-aggressive option, however nobody decided to listen to us.
That's why we've ended up in the situation we're in now.

 

[EdzUp]

This is what Ram Tah, who manufactures weaponry designed to fight Thargoids - and therefore profits from them being the enemy - tells you.

Until there is an independent, transparent and public investigation to confirm these findings, they cannot be considered legitimate.

As with everything the truth will be surpressed as it's not good business

Excuse the double-post but I can't get multi-quote working.

This is why we attempted to prevent both sides from engaging either eachother, or the Thargoids, so that we could install Hind Co-operative as a neutral third party.

In this case the lesser of two evils is Aegis, as from recent GalNet news articles and leaked documents from the Baumann Inquiry - it is explained they were actively attempting to communicate with the Thargoids rather than immediately engage. I just cannot understand why they didn't tell us this at the time, then we would've been far more lenient on them.

There has been far too much aggression on all fronts, I tried to provide an alternative non-aggressive option, however nobody decided to listen to us.
That's why we've ended up in the situation we're in now.

Well I havent killed a Thargoid in ED now back in '84 they were fair game but today I haven't seen anything to convince me to attack them.

 

[Julian McCoy]

As with everything the truth will be surpressed as it's not good business

-snip- I haven't seen anything to convince me to attack them.

Exactly, this is why we're pushing to support a reformed Aegis organisation with more transparency and public accountability.

It's also why I called on them in one of my campaign updates to release all documentation concerning previous communication attempts, and why I so desperately hope that Alba Tesrau reads this and makes contact. I want to compare notes.

 

[Greyskin87]

Indeed, even between those that do not have scientific foundations to discuss the details, there are lots of people who would like to follow the lead of Prof. Tesrau and proactively work to find a way to communicate with the thargs and try to end this conflict without the total extinction of a sentient species (us or them, I still do not know who'd win)

 

[Gwallt]

This is what Ram Tah, who manufactures weaponry designed to fight Thargoids - and therefore profits from them being the enemy - tells you.

Until there is an independent, transparent and public investigation to confirm these findings, they cannot be considered legitimate.

Until there is an independent, transparent and public outcome to the inquiry into Aegis, they cannot be considered legitimate. And Tanner certainly cannot be considered legitimate in any sense, as he is acting without orders.

By taking sides here, you are creating human civil war at a time when unity against an external threat might be a good idea. And you have taken the side of an organisation that is believed to be complicit in Project Seraph and certainly has not been ethical or transparent in its behaviour thus far. Salvation, however, is totally unknown but at least appears to do nothing but what it says on the tin.

At best, both sides of this coin are shades of grey. Turning them into a black and white, good vs evil choice does not seem to reflect reality. The history of recent times is full of such things, from rumours such as the Pivot project, to known facts such as Project Seraph. This may be a binary choice, but it's not a choice that any of us should feel comfortable with. None of the protagonists have been open with us. Aegis, however, is known to have been disingenuous. Salvation is not. So you have the choice of aligning yourself with known liars, or with an unknown. I prefer the hope of the unknown to the despair of the known.

 

[Gwallt]

Also, Aegis (or The Club, to use another term synonymous with Aegis) have been in contact with the Thargoids for some time, according to reliable information from sources other than the establishment (Galnet). One should ask how it is that peace has not been the outcome, given that communication is thought to have occurred. What has been promsied to the Thargoids? Or what have they asked for? Aegis, if they are truly interested in benefits to humanity, should publish all records of their "attempts" to communicate. They won't. Not in the interests of those that pulled the strings. And Aegis has outlived its usefulness to the puppet masters, and is now hung out to dry.

 

[nemolomen]

Death to the Thargoids!!!!

 

[Greyskin87]

I saw the bullettins, and it seems the conflict is resolved in the first day: salvation’s follower are going to win. This is a double failure for me…

first: when the peace seeker, the diplomats, are just a noisy minority, the result is certain: it will be war, lethal, galaxy wide and with unimaginable costs.

Second: when an institution that is supposed to be the joint effort of Alliance, Empire and Federation is left behind, under inquiry and without the support of the people it should represent, it’s the dead of human politics.
To prefer an individual - if he’s an individual - with a shady agenda over this coordinated effort is for me just inconceivable, unacceptable and frankly disappointing.

I only hope that all indipendent pilots who decided to “take the problem in their hand”, “choose for better weapons”, “give a strong signal” will be able in their arrogance of individuals to achieve the ultimate goal of the collectivity: to protect humanity.

You’ll find me on the radhanim.

have a good day, CMDRs

 

[xzanfr]

The masses have chosen the violent outcome over the diplomatic one; The chance of new weapons to murder the Thargoids over the chance to find a resolution.

The galaxy is a place for all of its inhabitants to co-exist together and not for just one species to dominate, where established species are present new species need to respect their boundaries - Humanity is an out of control virus stealing the territory and resources of species that have existed since before they evolved.

I hope that when the Thargoids (or any other species) defend themselves, victory over the humans is quick for the galaxy's sake. I will take any any all chances I can to expedite the Thargoid defence.

 

[Gwallt]

The two posts above miss the point completely. Aegis is an arm of The Club, which was directly responsible for the murder of Salome, whose only crime was to have found incriminating evidence of the Club's activities, and to attempt to publish that information in the public domain. The Club are a shady organisation that has its own best interests at heart, not those of humanity - much less those of the Thargoids.

Should Tanner get hold of the weapon used by Salvation in Cornsar, they will not make that weapon publicly available - they will restrict its use to their own interests. We know those interests are malign. So why should we allow them to have it? We know they are about as far from the "good guys" as it's possible to be.

On the other hand, there is no evidence to suggest Salvation is anything other than a maverick, albeit one with a powerful weapon. A powerful weapon that affects only Thargoids. Why should we assume him to be malign and The Club not to be? The Club are not elected, they are not representative of humanity - quite the opposite. Why give this power to them rather than to Salvation? We don't know who Salvation is, but neither do we know who The Club are - though we do know the identity of one of them, we don't know the remaining 11. Is Delaine one of them? Or not? Would you trust The Club with Salvation's weapon if that meant Delaine had access to it? Or Sirius?

The Club attempt to control information and humanity. We cannot allow them to succeed.

So it's not a matter of the "unwashed masses" being intrinsically violent. It's the informed, thinking part of the human population that opposes Aegis, The Club, The Federation's Pre-emptive Detection Bureau or whatever it's called. We refuse to live under an authoritarian, unaccountable conspiracy. And we will not allow a war, manufactured or otherwise, to force us to bend the knee to dictatorship. Those who cannot think for themselves can continue to support Aegis. The rest of us will continue to oppose them.

This is about far more than Thargoid love. I've never killed an Interceptor. I hope I never have to. But war is coming, whether we like it or not, and we must all make our own, personal, peace with whatever roles we take in that war. And when the war is over, whatever the outcome, humanity will be in a better place without Aegis and their paymasters of the Club.

So I chose hope in the unknown over despair of the known. Others will make their own choices.

 

[Rubbernuke]

The two posts above miss the point completely. Aegis is an arm of The Club, which was directly responsible for the murder of Salome, whose only crime was to have found incriminating evidence of the Club's activities, and to attempt to publish that information in the public domain. The Club are a shady organisation that has its own best interests at heart, not those of humanity - much less those of the Thargoids.

Should Tanner get hold of the weapon used by Salvation in Cornsar, they will not make that weapon publicly available - they will restrict its use to their own interests. We know those interests are malign. So why should we allow them to have it? We know they are about as far from the "good guys" as it's possible to be.

On the other hand, there is no evidence to suggest Salvation is anything other than a maverick, albeit one with a powerful weapon. A powerful weapon that affects only Thargoids. Why should we assume him to be malign and The Club not to be? The Club are not elected, they are not representative of humanity - quite the opposite. Why give this power to them rather than to Salvation? We don't know who Salvation is, but neither do we know who The Club are - though we do know the identity of one of them, we don't know the remaining 12. Is Delaine one of them? Or not? Would you trust The Club with Salvation's weapon if that meant Delaine had access to it? Or Sirius?

The Club attempt to control information and humanity. We cannot allow them to succeed.

So it's not a matter of the "unwashed masses" being intrinsically violent. It's the informed, thinking part of the human population that opposes Aegis, The Club, The Federation's Pre-emptive Detection Bureau or whatever it's called. We refuse to live under an authoritarian, unaccountable conspiracy. And we will not allow a war, manufactured or otherwise, to force us to bend the knee to dictatorship. Those who cannot think for themselves can continue to support Aegis. The rest of us will continue to oppose them.

This is about far more than Thargoid love. I've never killed an Interceptor. I hope I never have to. But war is coming, whether we like it or not, and we must all make our own, personal, peace with whatever roles we take in that war. And when the war is over, whatever the outcome, humanity will be in a better place without Aegis and their paymasters of the Club.

So I chose hope in the unknown over despair of the known. Others will make their own choices.

And yet, AEGIS is now under investigation and being held to account while Salvation......goes on making superweapons in his shed and using them whenever he feels like it.

Not to mention- how exactly did Salvation predict the Thargoid attack to use his weapon? He did not lure them there by any chance and risk thousands of lives did he? That attack was out of character for Thargoids, and ever since the Thargoids have struck back harder- so Salvation may have escalated the war and made it worse.

 

[Greyskin87]

The two posts above miss the point completely. Aegis is an arm of The Club, which was directly responsible for the murder of Salome, whose only crime was to have found incriminating evidence of the Club's activities, and to attempt to publish that information in the public domain. The Club are a shady organisation that has its own best interests at heart, not those of humanity - much less those of the Thargoids.

Should Tanner get hold of the weapon used by Salvation in Cornsar, they will not make that weapon publicly available - they will restrict its use to their own interests. We know those interests are malign. So why should we allow them to have it? We know they are about as far from the "good guys" as it's possible to be.

On the other hand, there is no evidence to suggest Salvation is anything other than a maverick, albeit one with a powerful weapon. A powerful weapon that affects only Thargoids. Why should we assume him to be malign and The Club not to be? The Club are not elected, they are not representative of humanity - quite the opposite. Why give this power to them rather than to Salvation? We don't know who Salvation is, but neither do we know who The Club are - though we do know the identity of one of them, we don't know the remaining 12. Is Delaine one of them? Or not? Would you trust The Club with Salvation's weapon if that meant Delaine had access to it? Or Sirius?

The Club attempt to control information and humanity. We cannot allow them to succeed.

So it's not a matter of the "unwashed masses" being intrinsically violent. It's the informed, thinking part of the human population that opposes Aegis, The Club, The Federation's Pre-emptive Detection Bureau or whatever it's called. We refuse to live under an authoritarian, unaccountable conspiracy. And we will not allow a war, manufactured or otherwise, to force us to bend the knee to dictatorship. Those who cannot think for themselves can continue to support Aegis. The rest of us will continue to oppose them.

This is about far more than Thargoid love. I've never killed an Interceptor. I hope I never have to. But war is coming, whether we like it or not, and we must all make our own, personal, peace with whatever roles we take in that war. And when the war is over, whatever the outcome, humanity will be in a better place without Aegis and their paymasters of the Club.

So I chose hope in the unknown over despair of the known. Others will make their own choices.

Honestly, I do not know much about The Club, I admit.
But as cited above AEGIS is an INSTITUTION, regulated and held accountable for what it does. At least publicly.

And I know institutions have gone astray before (see INRA), but Aegis was on the road of reformation (via the unsigned Sirius treaty) and it's accused of inefficiency exactly because via Prof. Tesrau was concentrating to communicate with thargs instead of just developing weapons.

So ok, if we have to speak conspiracy theory, then why AEGIS is under inquiry and news are leaked to discredit it just as Salvation is rising? Why NMLA attacked with the Nine Martirs bombings EXACTLY the day the Sirius Treaty was being signed? The whole PDB narrative is shady at least, but I do not believe that you can put in the same basket siding with AEGIS (or Tanner, in this case) and siding with PDB and such...

 

[Gwallt]

Aegis are under investigation - and Tanner is ignoring the fact. On the other hand, he is being supplied with material - the number of combat ships directly controlled by Aegis (i.e., NPCs) is far greater than could be carried in one megaship. So where are his reinforcements coming from?

The point about Cornsar is not entirely convincing either. We can speculate about what the Thargoids were doing there, whether they were lured etc. But we have no evidence to suggest that they were. It's perfectly possible that there was a good reason for them to attack Cornsar, of which we are unaware. Or they know Salvation of old and were pursuing him. Or he deliberately lured them there. But we know nothing - all we have is unfounded speculation, which is not good grounds for decision making.

We DO know that Aegis would take control of his weapon, if they were to be allowed, and use it for their own ends - which are not considered by the powers that be to be acceptable ends. That is demonstrated by the inquiry. So we know that Aegis have committed murder, we know they are an arm of the Club, we know that they are being investigated and we know that Tanner considers himself above such an investigation - above the rule of law, which is a common theme of Aegis' activities. So the mechanisms of human society have been mobilised against Aegis - yet we're still hearing suggestions that they're the good guys?

And remember, Tanner began this war, not Salvation. So Tanner was happy to be the direct cause of large numbers of human casualties. Why on Earth or any other planet support him? And support him on the grounds that Salvation MIGHT be escalating the Thargoid conflict to his own ends - which is exactly the point many have made about Aegis. So again, the justification given for supporting Aegis in this regard is a critique that can equally be applied to Aegis, and therefore is an example of inconsistent application of principle.

There is, incidentally, no moral high ground here. It's all a swamp. So the only thing to do is analyse the situation and assess probable outcomes. The very worst Salvation could do is no worse than Aegis have already done. And the best he could do is better. We know what Aegis will do. To hell with them and their paymasters in the Club.

 

[Julian McCoy]

There is, incidentally, no moral high ground here. It's all a swamp. So the only thing to do is analyse the situation and assess probable outcomes. The very worst Salvation could do is no worse than Aegis have already done. And the best he could do is better. We know what Aegis will do. To hell with them and their paymasters in the Club.

The point remains that Aegis never attacked Thargoids with such a force that they responded by engaging incursions into eleven different systems simultaneously.

I'd call that escalation.

 

[xzanfr]

And when the war is over, whatever the outcome, humanity will be in a better place without Aegis and their paymasters of the Club.

Hopefully when the war is over humanity won't exist and the galaxy will be in a better place.

Humans have proven time and again that they are populated by a majority who are bloodthirsty with technology over their intelligence & maturity level. Both Salvation and Aegis are creating these arms and provoking the Thargoids - aegis are (currently) the lesser of the two evils however are easily swayed to be just as bad by the club.

Enjoy your days humanity, as they are numbered.

 

[Rubbernuke]

Aegis are under investigation - and Tanner is ignoring the fact. On the other hand, he is being supplied with material - the number of combat ships directly controlled by Aegis (i.e., NPCs) is far greater than could be carried in one megaship. So where are his reinforcements coming from?

People loyal to him who also want answers perhaps?

The point about Cornsar is not entirely convincing either. We can speculate about what the Thargoids were doing there, whether they were lured etc. But we have no evidence to suggest that they were. It's perfectly possible that there was a good reason for them to attack Cornsar, of which we are unaware. Or they know Salvation of old and were pursuing him. Or he deliberately lured them there. But we know nothing - all we have is unfounded speculation, which is not good grounds for decision making.

We know what Thargoids target and why. This attack went against all that and stands apart to the point where it appears Salvation forced the Thargoids to attack just to test his weapon.

We DO know that Aegis would take control of his weapon, if they were to be allowed, and use it for their own ends - which are not considered by the powers that be to be acceptable ends.

Do we? If anything the superpowers are angry with AEGIS for lack of action and spending too much time trying to communicate with them.

And remember, Tanner began this war, not Salvation. So Tanner was happy to be the direct cause of large numbers of human casualties.

AEGIS under the control of superpowers you mean, responding to the Thargoids.

That is demonstrated by the inquiry. So we know that Aegis have committed murder, we know they are an arm of the Club, we know that they are being investigated and we know that Tanner considers himself above such an investigation - above the rule of law, which is a common theme of Aegis' activities. So the mechanisms of human society have been mobilised against Aegis - yet we're still hearing suggestions that they're the good guys?

And how does any of that relate to Salvation using unlicensed weapons indiscriminately? Surely you want some form of control via governments over such a powerful weapon- just having one person who you know nothing about controlling it is alarming. We don't even know if they are under the control of the Guardians, human, AI.

 

[Gwallt]

The Aegis banner is hung on Tanner at this point - his ships all display an affiliation with Aegis. Yet Aegis is pretending Tanner is acting under his own volition. Perhaps he is. But again, where are all his ships coming from? The war I speak of is the war between humans in T Tauri. Tanner instigated that, presumably with Aegis' and the Club's consent. If it was against their wishes, what of this accountability and oversight to which you repeatedly refer? Utterly meaningless.

It seems that very few of those fighting for Aegis have actually informed themselves fully of history. Not just of now but of ancient times. Was the 21st Century Vatican subject to the control of the Italian state? Or the City of London accountable to the UK government? The answer is a resounding no. The argument that seems to dominate these discussions is that we should trust our governments and therefore Aegis. Why? What evidence have they given us that they are trustworthy? Many of their most powerful members, and of the most powerful business leaders, are members of the Club. We know the Club plans to escape the bubble when the Thargoids come, and that they intend to leave the majority of the human population behind to their fate - and yes, we know this, it's in the history. Read the tourist beacon transcripts, the story of Salome and of the Pivot. The evidence is spread through every strand of our recent history, you just have to make the effort to inform yourselves.

And is Salvation's weapon really so alarming? If it really killed every Thargoid in Cornsar, where are their remains? A few crashed ships that were orbiting bodies is nowhere near the full fleet in the system at the time Salvation used his weapon. If it destroyed Thargoid ships, where are the wrecks? I suggest it temporarily disabled their ships, meaning a few fell to the nearest body, but the rest survived and fled.

There is also the issue of the ongoing Thargoid civil war. The Club are believed to have been in contact with the side that are losing. This side is more well-disposed towards humanity, historically and in the present. They even refuel us when they hyperdict us. Their opponents are not so kind. It may not be related, but I noticed that on the last few occasions when I have been hyperdicted, I was not refuelled. That's a change in Thargoid behaviour. It is believed that up to this point, the peaceable Thargoids have been training humanity to fight the really nasty Thargoids. That may or not be the case. But it is fairly certain that humanity has been set up to be the fall guy in this civil war, and that we will cover the flight of the peaceable Thargoids should they finally lose and flee to pastures new. They'll come through human space, as they did last time, and chasing them will be their Thargoid enemies. We will die in large numbers fighting them, and the Club - and the "nice" Thargoids - will make their escape at our expense.

We do not know what motivates the Thargoids. We have very little idea of their modus operandi. When we start seeing patterns that are not there, we become subject to irrationality. Those who claim to know how Thargoids think and act are lost to logic. It may be that they are in fact peaceful in intent. We have no evidence to suggest that to be the case. Neither do we have any evidence to suggest they are hostile - individually, we all have experience, but what is Thargoid policy towards humanity? We don't know, and cannot, as for some mysterious reason, we're locked out of their territory. They're not locked out of ours. So who made the decision to impose limits on us? And what price did the Thargoids extract from our leaders when that deal was made?

We've been in contact with the Thargoids for years. Yet the human population has been denied that information. Why? To protect us? To protect them? Or because our leaders negotiated a temporary pause to Thargoid invasion plans, to give themselves time to escape? The only evidence we have points towards the latter. So you say we should kill other humans, at the behest of those very leaders that we know have several plans to sell the rest of humanity down the river? I suggest that does not sound very humanitarian. It sounds like serfdom. I am no-one's serf.

 

[Julian McCoy]

[A lot of things.]

Why does Salvation's weapon not alarm you?

The only real salient point I can discern enough to counter is that if you simply observe Thargoid behaviour, you can find patterns which can then be tested, and have been tested. Throwing around accusations of irrationality because you simply haven't seen enough of a behaviour to be able to understand it to the point where you can form a hypothesis concerning the patterns it exhibits is rather silly. That was also one hell of a sentence, thanks voice-to-text, COVAS really doing it's job. Not.
I'm more worried that you can't see any of this.

I don't want to kill other humans, but other humans happen to be supporting someone who wants to commit genocide against the Thargoids, has a speech pattern similar to Thomas Dorne and goes silent when challenged, also very akin to Dorne. If there is evidence aboard Hind Mine of Salvation's - God I hate calling The Butcher of Cornsar that - true intentions or identity, then we should be striving to obtain it.

Some of us have our own plans in the event humanity should start burning, I won't fight to save it as it's bringing it's own destruction upon itself.

The rest I offer no challenge to.
(Except who are you calling a serf? I've already gone from very cross to extremely cross, don't make it very extremely cross.)

 

[Gwallt]

Actually, I'm totally with you on letting them burn... We have antagonised the Thargoids, and brought whatever happens on ourselves - collectively. Personally, I've only ever taken a small number of MA and got Palin's fragments by finding them, not by exploding sensors. But collectively, we decimated the Barnacles. I've never shot an Interceptor, but I'm in the minority. So we agree there. But war is coming, whether we like it or not. And I will defend myself and those close to me.

I see the Club as responsible for this whole thing. Aegis are an arm of the Club. So they're guilty of being part of the whole thing, inside the conspiracy, not outside, as we are. And as Salvation is - as far as we can tell. Now, I do have the feeling that the name cuts both ways. It speaks not only of arrogance and messiah syndrome - it speaks to regret, of searching for personal salvation. Which would also fit with Dorne. So I'm open to that suggestion - and no, I don't like it (other pompous gits are available, and presumed-extinct species...). But Salvation is one megalomaniac, of that I'm fairly certain. The Club are 12, all fighting each other for supremacy. And perfectly willing to sacrifice human lives right now, for no other reason than winning a game. You, at the moment, are doing their bidding.

I would rather back Salvation now, and then destroy him if necessary, than be complicit in the mutually assured destruction of starting an internal conflict, which Tanner has done, just as we're about to face a fully fledged invasion of a force that is at least the equal of ours, and probably far stronger. Whatever the cause, it's coming. And we should be preparing, not starting uncivil internal wars. Why don't we concentrate on working out who Salvation is, but watch him, draw him out... Ultimately, he will require personal recognition, megalomaniacs do. So we will find out who he is - and treat him as he deserves.

His weapon does bother me. But it's also effective. I want to know what it is. I don't want it to just change hands amongst the members of the Club, or be gambled over at Joker's Deck parties. While it's controlled by one person who needs to be public, we can exercise some control over its use. If it's controlled by a nefarious organisation, we can't. So for these reasons I can be calm(ish) about the weapon.

Be careful when ascribing meaning to Thargoid behaviour. I agree, to some extent, that we have seen patterns of behaviour. I acknowledged that when I mentioned a recent change in hyperdiction behaviour that I'd observed. But... (of course!) We don't think like Thargoids, so we can see what happens - but we can't ascribe meaning to it, because we know nothing of them, their culture, biology, history... None of it. Is turning and leaving us after a hyperdiction a sign of consideration? Of honour? Of contemptuous dismissal? We don't know, so we can't guess at how they've interpreted our behaviour. Badly, I would imagine. You and I are not responsible for that. But I will defend myself if necessary, and with a clear conscience.