Powerplay A word on 5c, and the state of Powerplay

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Khan already linked it, but I thought I'd inline it here for ease of reading.

There was a concerted effort between the powers to figure out a series of relatively simple proposals to help improve PowerPlay and specifically 5C. I would like to highlight these three, which are relatively small rule changes that should not affect anybody not involved in PowerPlay. They will not magically solve the problem, but together they would make 5C significantly more difficult, less effective, and less destructive when it does happen:

Overhead scales with number of (control+exploited+contested) systems, rather than number of control systems
Make it treason to prep loss-making systems
Turmoil ordering of systems is decided by difference between fort and UM levels, ignoring 100% cap


I believe these three alone would massively reduce the problems associated with 5C.

The full list of proposals is here. Each one is independent, each helps in small ways, and addresses different aspects of PowerPower (and yes, OpenOnly is in that list): https://forums.frontier.co.uk/threa...out-incrementally-improving-powerplay.551571/
These three possible changes seem excellent. They would make it much harder to prepare a system the Power does not really want, and make it possible to do something about the situtation Hudson has been in recently (with the unwanted blanket-fortifying leading to good systems being lost in turmoil rather than poor ones and nothing the FRC can do about it). From what I understand of the Imperial side's own 5C concerns, these proposals should also go some way to mitigating those problems - particularly unwanted bad preps.

Putting aside the discussion about how where we got where we are, does anyone in the PowerPlay community object to these changes? They have been around for a while so people have had a chance to think of objections. And as Foursyth says, they have the advantage of zero impact on non PowerPlayers.
 
The problem with that is there are a number of players out there (as there always are) who want to be part of something bigger than just grind influence for a single faction with no real point or purpose. Powerplay is as close as we're going to get to conflict between superpowers. It's the difference between "faction no-one cares about A" versus "faction no-one cares about B" and an actual Federation v Empire war.

At the risk of taking this further off topic, you only care about factions or powers if you want to. There is no point to playing the BGS or Powerplay otherwise. Both are never ending games of Risk. There's no point to winning or losing in short or long term unless you care about the winning or losing.

The reason i do BGS instead of PP is because PP offers you a very limited and specific range of activities you can do to support your power, whereas with the BGS you can do more or less what you want and help your faction.
 
I can't say I love the proposal of making it treason to prep loss-makers. Our usual prep blocker is a loss-maker and I'm not sure it's enough of a disincentive for actual 5C to stop them from continuing doing what they do.

Changes to overhead scaling is an intriguing concept, but I don't know enough about the specific math of overheads to comment on the specifics.

I absolutely hate the idea of turmoil ordering being determined by a contest of fort vs undermine percentages. Not only does it not fix the problem of 5C, it makes 5C even more desirable. And it seems it would also exaggerate the problems with botting in powerplay as well. Botted scraps would be incredibly powerful and anyone not using a bot would be absolutely borked.

Here's the real problem though. Who's going to convince Frontier to make changes to powerplay?
 
I find this interesting. Coming from a power that almost 5c’d grom to oblivion while cackling about it in system chat. Meanwhile grom commanders put in hours of dedicated work to undo the 5c. the torval expansions that contested imperial space despite being staunch allies. Or shall we mention the HIP 1572 preparation that got pushed up to a record breaking high of 500k merits during a federal assault and always has high numbers during federal assaults. Shall we also mention a certain federal leader that got banned from the game. Or what about the notorious ganker group borann boys(most of whom got banned and were even apart of federal leadership) and now plag, borann boys 2.0, that aids and has aided federal pvp pilots.

In conclusion, despite what noise comes from the FUC propaganda machine. All other powers know the disregard FUC have shown towards agreements, conventions, fair play resolutions, and civilized conversation. It would be nice to have a peaceful galaxy, but you all never learn; so we have to make sure to protect ourselves against the galaxy bully. If only FUC could follow and imitate the conduct of The Fatherhood squadron(another sizeable federal aligned entity) the galaxy would be a different place than it is now.

What I find interesting is the its always the other side doing it. I'm not saying you're wrong, but i've seen people accuse the Grom guys of doing it as well.

There seems to be an illusion among the core powerplayers that they somehow speak for and control everyone who is working for powers, so that if they have agreed it means none of their guys are doing it.

As i understand, the number of powerplayers is not particularly high and 5C has massive effects, so it only takes a few doing 5C to disproportionately affect things.

Add in cheap alt accounts from sales and how easy it is to get yourself credits these days, and i suspect every power has people who are willing and able to dabble in 5C if they so choose.

In short, nobody can claim that their side isn't doing it or that the people they are aiming their accusations at are actually responsible for it.

No group controls all people working for a particular power.
 
I thought the thread was re-opened for discussions regarding 5c, or the broader, deeper problem that are bad actions in Powerplay. Yet it seems to keep going in accusations. If Hudson's incredibly negative balance was caused by 5c expansions, it would be understandable that a 5c attack was underway and it would be very poor form to capitalize on it. However, it has been Hudson leadership itself that chose to expand negative system after negative system for years. Blaming fortification, and then ultimately the imperial underminers for undermining (?) seems like an attempt to shift the blame.
Respectfully, we believe in blaming 5c wherever and whenever it appears.

When a power finds themselves with a unwanted expansion because of a 5c prep, we don't blame their lack of hauling - we blame 5c. When a power fails to consolidate to because of a 5c vote snipe, we don't blame that power's lack of voting control - we blame 5c.

Call me too principled on this, but it's something we deeply believe in.
 
Six years ago, Powerplay was on the verge of imploding.

Things were different, back then: Grom didn’t exist, Patreus was still the right arm of the Empire, and Torval still a power of her own. Winters was still reeling from a massive defection of her members, disgruntled by a broken cycle tick that thwarted what would then have been the Federation’s crowning achievement.

Those members went and did the unforgivable: they pledged to the emperor, working cycle after cycle to feed fifth-column preps and damaging expansions to a power already struggling from the bloat of its lossmakers. In a show of solidarity, powers across the galaxy rushed to declare ALD off-limits, hoping to stymie the 5c tide, but it was too late. One fateful cycle, ALD was thrown into deep turmoil, her hauling sabotaged and lossmakers fortified so that her systems would drop, week after week, the community at large powerless to stop it. For all of us, those were dark times.

Not too long after, I myself would leave Elite. I was not the only one: at the time, the discussion surrounding Powerplay had grown so bitter, the outlook on the game so bleak that many of us simply quit. For all we could tell, Powerplay was on the decline, left abandoned by its players and its developers for too long.

But die it did not. When I returned, years later, I wasn’t prepared for what I saw: a community still vibrant, still kicking, one that had taken every punch, but learned to roll with them, too. The road until then hadn’t been all sunshine and roses – but despite it all, Powerplay had lived on. Back at the wheel, I allowed myself to dream: I dreamed of Powerplay as it was in its golden days, driven by rivalry and not contempt, I dreamed of that spark in so many of your eyes back when we first met.

Even now, I believe that we were almost there. But tonight, we have to talk.

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For the past three cycles, in the midst of an imperial attack on Hudson systems, Hudson has been relentlessly and blatantly 5c fortified.

For those past few weeks, every metric - the amount of merits hauled, the order and speed with which our systems were fortified - has been far, far off everything we knew to expect of our random pledges, no matter the cycle. We’ve been caretakers of Hudson for years – we know this better than anyone. This campaign that flies in the face of everything our communities have built for years.

Hudson was heavily and openly undermined from the very beginning, a plan that defies logic unless our opposition could guarantee Hudson would not be able to control their turmoil. This isn't even the matter of hoping for random pilots to fort a few systems - should even a couple systems be missing from the blanket fifth-column fortification we saw, Hudson would be allowed to scrap, ending the imperial operation in unmitigated disaster.

There is no hidden recourse, no backup plan for open undermining at this scale. Imperial coordinators needed to know without fail that Hudson would see a blanket fort, against the wishes of his own leadership. From there, it doesn’t take much to put two and two together.

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I’d like to remind all of you why we fight against 5c, why our agreement on the matter was vocal, unanimous.

5c is both near-impossible to counter, and entirely consequence-free. 5c allows harmful interaction in a way that bypasses the intended framework of Powerplay, at no cost whatsoever to the power engaging in it. 5c kills meaningful decision making, making fortification strategy and turmoil planning moot.

5c has come close to killing Powerplay far more times than it had any right to. We don’t condemn it just because we can: we condemn it because we know the game cannot survive it.

Tonight, all I can express is my profound disappointment. Years have passed – years to learn, years to grow, years to put 5c behind us for good. I believed in us, I believed in you, and there’s still time to reconsider, to do what’s right.

Consider this: a game is only as good as the people you choose to play it with, and the rules you build for yourselves to follow. If you convince yourself that you can’t stand the people around you, and that the very rules you built are no longer worth following – what, then, is there left to enjoy?
Not much wrong with that.
You are a mercenary in a vast universe. Your life, activities, and even the activities of an entire community are but a grain of sand in the ocean.
You can play for some or for others or not play at all, it only affects YOU. The infinite universe will not notice your fiddling.

P.S. Reading this post was the first time I heard about the 5c, even though I've been playing since 2015.
 
I feel this conversation has been derailed a little, as some here are insinuating that this thread was created purely from baseless conjecture.

I'll repeat the original message of the thread, just to clear up any ambiguity:

  • 5c is a deeply destructive action made possible by systemic flaws in Powerplay; it is one we believe the community at large should continue to condemn.

  • For the past three weeks, Hudson has being heavily 5c fortified (something we've presented an avalanche of evidence for); despite this, the imperial-led operation against us is exploiting the results of this 5c activity to keep Hudson in turmoil.

  • Hudson leadership is deeply disappointed that 5c continues to affect Powerplay, and we'd like to call attention to our situation and to the issue of 5c at large.

None of this is baseless; all of this originates from a genuine concern for the health of Powerplay. Over the course of this thread, I’ve heard some insightful suggestions on how best to improve it: I’d like these discussions to continue.
 
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Well there was that "feature revamp 2023" which I'm pinning my last molecules of hope on. Thing is FD need to give the groups hope and not suddenly / hopefully spring it on them as by them people would have gone.
I wish.

But lets be honest, I don't see them doing it when there are other features that need a revamp. I'd prefer Crime and Punishment to be looked at but I have a horrible feeling that it will be engineering again.
 
Would having a set pledge time work? say signing up for a month minimum with a week (cycle) cool down time before your able to switch?
You would maybe have to let modules be available to the masses in a different way if folks were only doing PP for those.

Ive read the suggestions page but don't know enough about the system to comment but i would never support anything that was OPEN only, that would turn folks like me completely off and atm im finding what im reading about PP pretty appealing.

I think another problem you have (again from an outsiders view) is that 5c has the potential to be pretty exciting no matter how underhanded.
Personally i find sabotaging another faction appealing to my Sithy type nature but if i was to do PP i would align with a power and do within the spirit of the game.

Whilst we're on the subject is there any current guide to all this PP stuff? most of the guides i have found are pretty old.

O7
 
I wish.

But lets be honest, I don't see them doing it when there are other features that need a revamp. I'd prefer Crime and Punishment to be looked at but I have a horrible feeling that it will be engineering again.
The thing is, engineering has had two revamps (well one plus an overhaul). While its not perfect it does work, what it desperately needs is balancing plus changing mat requirements accordingly. Its the same with C+P- its not that far away from working bar a few adjustments- and that I suspect would partially go hand in hand with a Powerplay revamp anyway since there are a lot of overlaps.
 
Some time ago I had a modest proposal which would require little effort on dev side: add contributor tables to PP system: top 5 fortifiers, top 5 preppers, top 5 underminers, etc.
Also color the undermining bar depending on the power affiliation of those involved.
It's not much, but it could stop (some of) the annoying mudslinging that happens regularly.
 
I wish.

But lets be honest, I don't see them doing it when there are other features that need a revamp. I'd prefer Crime and Punishment to be looked at but I have a horrible feeling that it will be engineering again.
Hey - hope is the one thing we can cling to. I mean, they did mention Powerplay in the lead up to Odyssey... Just have to believe...!

Would having a set pledge time work? say signing up for a month minimum with a week (cycle) cool down time before your able to switch?
You would maybe have to let modules be available to the masses in a different way if folks were only doing PP for those.
Cooldowns are a neat idea in theory - but in practice, Elite has been around long enough that many people have alts they can keep pledged to a power for indefinite amounts of time.

Freeing up Powerplay modules is something we've been begging for for years, though. It's a step to solving manpower imbalances between powers, it helps reduce 5c by eliminating the module shopper problem... And it gets rid of one of the most poorly thought-out unlock systems in Elite.

Whilst we're on the subject is there any current guide to all this PP stuff? most of the guides i have found are pretty old.

We have a number of condensed Powerplay guides we offer to our recruits (this stuff can be daunting) if you'd like to join us. Otherwise, here's a guide from a while ago that's pretty comprehensive - although it might take an evening to read...
 
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Hey - hope is the one thing we can cling to. I mean, they did mention Powerplay in the lead up to Odyssey... Just have to believe...!


Cooldowns are a neat idea in theory - but in practice, Elite has been around long enough that many people have alts they can keep pledged to a power for indefinite amounts of time.

Freeing up Powerplay modules is something we've been begging for for years, though. It's a step to solving manpower imbalances between powers, it helps reduce 5c by eliminating the module shopper problem... And it gets rid of one of the most poorly thought-out unlock systems in Elite.



We have a number of condensed Powerplay guides we offer to our recruits (this stuff can be daunting) if you'd like to join us. Otherwise, here's a guide from a while ago that's pretty comprehensive - although it might take an evening to read...
Thanks for the link, much appreciated and will take a good look tonight.

O7
 
Personally i find sabotaging another faction appealing to my Sithy type nature but if i was to do PP i would align with a power and do within the spirit of the game.
One of the reasons why 5C needs to be dealt with systematically is that it's easy and not unreasonable for a more or less well-meaning Elite CMDR newly coming to PowerPlay to think that "ooh, this is clever, I can pledge to my opponent and make them expand to a bad system" - and as you say it sounds clever and role-playish, and isn't against the terms of service (difficult to see how you could define it to be), and you won't get a pop-up warning you of what you're doing, that you didn't think of it first and it has bad bad outcomes when followed through. In fact, you wouldn't even know that it wasn't within "the spirit of the game" unless you were lucky enough to come across a discussion like this on the forums; or were in one of the organised PowerPlay groups on Discord or whatever of course.

I'm not saying 5C activity is all "well-meaning" like this ie naive without understanding the broader consequences - eg the current blanket fortifying of Hudson in the past few weeks is definitely by someone who knows what they're doing and has a big picture - but I suspect some of it is.

And you need quite a big picture - which is difficult without a lot of history - to see how bad this is for the game system as a whole, basically makes things unplayable in the ways that hundreds of people currently heavily engaged in the game (for all powers) want to play it. And then you also need to care about that. It's too much to hope that this knowledge and caring will happen spontaneously in a game with thousands of CMDRs, and clearly simple public statements from the Powers' leaderships saying "Don't do 5C" isn't enough, so we badly need some system-wide tweaks - as conservative and careful as possible, but got to do something about it.
 
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Shortly after Mo Mo's message that you quote, I responded with 3 examples from our Sheets which show several systems being Undermined to 100% before being Forted to 100%
I have reviewed the sheets you have posted.

Yes, some systems were undermined before they were 100% forted. Has it occurred to you that there are systems we wanted to be undermined, regardless whether they were forted or not?

If PP is that straightforward - one side just fort everything they want to keep, and the other side just undermine anything that has been forted, it would make a very boring game, we won't need a team of strategists pouring over all the data.

In the end, you need to accept that randoms will do random things, they may think they are being helpful due to incomplete or misleading information, and you need to take these into account.

You can't, on one hand, gratefully accept randoms' help with your expansions; those unbelievable amounts of unaccountable merits being dropped against almost impossible trigger that has enabled you to take numerous expansions (you told everyone previously that a large part of those mystery combat merits were from unknown randoms when we accused you of botting), and then you cry foul when these randoms tried to help your Power when you come under attack. You can't have your cake and eat it.
 
Some time ago I had a modest proposal which would require little effort on dev side: add contributor tables to PP system: top 5 fortifiers, top 5 preppers, top 5 underminers, etc.
Also color the undermining bar depending on the power affiliation of those involved.
It's not much, but it could stop (some of) the annoying mudslinging that happens regularly.
I would love to see something like this implemented, in fact, it would be even better if there is a top 5 for each Power.
 

Ozric

Volunteer Moderator
I don't understand why people have such a hard time of understand what is asked of them.

Discuss the post and not the poster. Stop with the petty arguments too, otherwise you'll just lose your ability to post in this thread.
 
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