About that double-engineered FSD reward for the CG...

[J3DI]

I don't have any issue with players not being able to participate in every CG, some CGs just not holding appeal for some, or not everyone being able to achieve the top reward.

However, these kinds of rewards aren't a trend I find to be positive. They should be leveling the playing field by removing/converting legacy modules, rather than introducing new ones.

"They should be leveling the playing field by removing/converting legacy modules"

I spent a great deal of time ( weeks ) gathering materials to achieve 'god rolls' on certain modules in the previous engineering iteration.
How would Frontier compensate me and a great many other players if your suggestion was implemented?

 

[Nathan84]

How would Frontier compensate me and a great many other players if your suggestion was implemented?

A free paint, like I got for actually spending money on Horizons not even 6 months before it went free

 

[marx]

@J3DI: simple. Introduce new engineering that's more powerful than what could be god-rolled back then. This was actually the plan, and the current G5 blueprints we have are better than the god-rolls... but not all of them. Frontier didn't consider a few edge cases, which can still be slightly better than what's available to all.
And hey, you still got to keep your old stuff.
The only problem with this is power creep, but it already started with too powerful rolls being available anyway. Same is likely happen with this module, but given the time-limited exclusivity, it's worse. Of course, for all we know in Odyssey, we might be able to give 100% organic space cactus juice to Engineers who'll then realise they could go up to G7 Increased Range, giving +90% optimal mass.

For now, Frontier decided not to comment on anything, and also not to change the goal, so now it's over, and we wait.

 

[Morbad]

I spent a great deal of time ( weeks ) gathering materials to achieve 'god rolls' on certain modules in the previous engineering iteration.

So did I, and even after the repeated increases to the potency of blueprints in the later system, my CMDR still has about two-dozen "god rolls".

How would Frontier compensate me and a great many other players if your suggestion was implemented?

No compensation is required. Just as no compensation was required to account for previous balance changes that depreciated certain modules, and the work that went into creating them, before.

A level the playing field, so one does not have to self-handicap to play a game where all players have largely similar opportunities, is it's own reward.

 

[Sinister Evil]

Ya big no to compensation....

Once you open that flood gate the next argument is what is "fair" compensation. I like to think of it as... organic change, adapt or die.... or lose billions >_>

That being said I lost billions when LTD went from 1.6 mill / ton to about 650k - 750k. I dont mean lost billions because I couldn't take part in the reaping of LTD via triple hot spot, I lost billions because I operated a mining shop/FC. Soon as that price dropped my orders got maxed at 1.4 mill per ton, I was lucky to get half that back on about 7000 units.

That said I chocked it up to a learning experienced about order size just in case of drastic market value change, and that LTD mining getting nerfed was for the good of the game. With engineering.... ya I could see how brutal that can be, but I also have tons of G5 modules I'd never use again that I'd love to be able to sell as "custom" gear out of my FC, or be able to refund for materials used, even if only a % of return.

 

[Jmanis]

Ya big no to compensation....

Once you open that flood gate the next argument is what is "fair" compensation. I like to think of it as... organic change, adapt or die.... or lose billions >_>

i wonder when i can start asking for compensation for years of lost profits from smuggling being broken XD

 

[Nadreck]

I've noticed something...

That custom missile rack, previously given to us with a price of zero, now has a nonzero price attached.

If they do the same with the FSD, it will cost 100 credits to transfer it off the Spirit of Nysa initially, but those expecting a permanent reduction to their ship's transfer and rebuy fees will be disappointed when the price goes up.

 

[Cmdr. Numa]

i wonder when i can start asking for compensation for years of lost profits from smuggling being broken XD

Amen to that. Yet I still keep a Python engineered for that just. Hope dies last.

 

[Gremlyn]

Ya big no to compensation....

Once you open that flood gate the next argument is what is "fair" compensation. I like to think of it as... organic change, adapt or die.... or lose billions >_>

That being said I lost billions when LTD went from 1.6 mill / ton to about 650k - 750k. I dont mean lost billions because I couldn't take part in the reaping of LTD via triple hot spot, I lost billions because I operated a mining shop/FC. Soon as that price dropped my orders got maxed at 1.4 mill per ton, I was lucky to get half that back on about 7000 units.

That said I chocked it up to a learning experienced about order size just in case of drastic market value change, and that LTD mining getting nerfed was for the good of the game. With engineering.... ya I could see how brutal that can be, but I also have tons of G5 modules I'd never use again that I'd love to be able to sell as "custom" gear out of my FC, or be able to refund for materials used, even if only a % of return.

The difference hear is you can get back the lost credits from your LTDs.....there is no other way for me to go and play some more game to get a double engineered FSD....otherwise I would not have an issue.

Unlike a lot of people that complain about the "grind" I enjoy working my way towards goals such as engineering my ships.....but I simply can not gain access to what appears to to be a superiors FSD (I know we don't know for sure yet) using the normal gameplay.

The ultimate fall out for this for me is to copy what other commanders have already done and simply stop participating in CGs to save myself the disappointment - especially if they are focused at gamers that have more time on there hands and I simply can not compete.

 

[Sinister Evil]

Unlike a lot of people that complain about the "grind" I enjoy working my way towards goals such as engineering my ships.....but I simply can not gain access to what appears to to be a superiors FSD (I know we don't know for sure yet) using the normal gameplay.

The ultimate fall out for this for me is to copy what other commanders have already done and simply stop participating in CGs to save myself the disappointment - especially if they are focused at gamers that have more time on there hands and I simply can not compete.

I half think that double engineering will become a thing later, but for changing things now, why not start a thread with a suggestion/petition to revise the reward system for participating in CG's. Obviously those with FC's and the time to load/unload had a massive advantage of getting top 25% over those that don't, and thargoid hunting your way into top 25% isn't exactly easy either unless you've practiced and able to kill cyclops or bigger interceptors.

Maybe use the results of this CG to pitch a concept like module prize award being based on a minimum of X mission commodities/kills gets turned in to the mission station? I think you could pitch it based on 2 big points that would help the game, but also some downsides.

1 - Promote more participation and game play within the interactive story line by players with no FC.

Positive - Players that are more solo can achieve enough to get the special module prizes. It would also prevent "reward" driving story line. Like for instance if one sides prize module is better than the others or more desirable, that could determine which side is bound to win a conflict. By setting a target to hit that isn't based on ranking and low enough to not really shift the CG to much, the outcomes would be more driven by players wanting to participate in the story line rather than optimize their ships/account.

Negative - Devalue FC's. During this event I could park my FC and charge 1000% on the power generators, and they'd sell out in an hour easy (21k units). If the events were based on only delivering X amount of goods rather then be in topX%, then demand will likely shrink if the target amount is not substantial. Although this is purely speculative, the demand could survive based souly on players willingness to participate in story line, or simply for the convenience of being able to hit the target number to get the module they want without having to do to many long distance trips. Another downside is this would make solo'ing more desirable to many, since not owning or having access to a FC wouldn't matter, players wont seek out FC owners to work deals out with, and form larger social networks.



In the mean time there are a lot of FC owners you can contact to work out deals with

 

[Jmanis]

The difference hear is you can get back the lost credits from your LTDs.....there is no other way for me to go and play some more game to get a double engineered FSD....otherwise I would not have an issue.

Unlike a lot of people that complain about the "grind" I enjoy working my way towards goals such as engineering my ships.....but I simply can not gain access to what appears to to be a superiors FSD (I know we don't know for sure yet) using the normal gameplay.

The ultimate fall out for this for me is to copy what other commanders have already done and simply stop participating in CGs to save myself the disappointment - especially if they are focused at gamers that have more time on there hands and I simply can not compete.

So my big question is...

What is it, besides the mere fact of not having this module, will you absolutely never be able to do without this?

As far as I can tell, the only thing is set an individual jump range record. So what are you really missing out on?

(BTW: Jump range is out, FCs have seen to that)

 

[Sinister Evil]

So my big question is...

What is it, besides the mere fact of not having this module, will you absolutely never be able to do without this?

As far as I can tell, the only thing is set an individual jump range record. So what are you really missing out on?

(BTW: Jump range is out, FCs have seen to that)

agreed. I use my FC as an exploration platform from time to time, and I like it a lot more than just going out in my conda.

 

[Gremlyn]

So my big question is...

What is it, besides the mere fact of not having this module, will you absolutely never be able to do without this?

As far as I can tell, the only thing is set an individual jump range record. So what are you really missing out on?

(BTW: Jump range is out, FCs have seen to that)

Any ability to increase jump range on any ship, be it cargo hauling, pvping or exploring is a bonus - one that I have seen lots of people already mention they are after. It is simple to see how much demand there is for increased jump range by how fast this CG was completed.

At the moment the fastest way to do exploration is the Anaconda - it is possible the Krait Phantom with this FSD will outperform here. Lots of people complain about the Anaconda due to its lumbering nature - something the Phantom will be better at if this FSD works the way many people think it will. Additionally if you are Neutron jumping then the additional mobility in the Phantom will really help over the Anaconda.

There are other cases where increased range helps but I'd rather not turn this post into an epic.

 

[marx]

What is it, besides the mere fact of not having this module, will you absolutely never be able to do without this?

I suppose you might be asking the same question if next month's CG will offer, say, a shield generator with Reinforced and Thermal Resistant blueprints applied. So, let me give you a universal answer that should be applicable to whatever will come next:

If you are competing with another player, then if all else is equal, the player who has the overpowered exclusive item will win over the other. To answer your specific question, you will never be able to win then.
Even shorter: it's an unfair advantage.


Now, if you are of the opinion that there's nothing in this specific scenario, with these double-engineered FSDs, where the above is applicable, see the post about Buckyball above. There'd be other examples, of course.

 

[SCiARA]

it's a hard one for me, in one hand I don't think there should be top % gets a prize in a community goal, that's not really the spirit of a CG is it
on the other if it was open to all then very little effort is needed to get something special

I read somewhere that they should base the rewards on a minimum set amount handed in, be it trade or bonds, therefore if you put the required effort in you get the nice prize, could even be a combination of set amount + certain tier
the monetary winnings (and lets face it pride) takes care of the top % reached

 

[aRJay]

I've noticed something...

That custom missile rack, previously given to us with a price of zero, now has a nonzero price attached.

If they do the same with the FSD, it will cost 100 credits to transfer it off the Spirit of Nysa initially, but those expecting a permanent reduction to their ship's transfer and rebuy fees will be disappointed when the price goes up.

Can't check that just now as the rack is fitted into my all missile ship, but the free GFSDB we got from the Witch Head is still 100cr to transfer all I have done with that one so far is move it to a more permanent location than a megaship.

 

[Jmanis]

I suppose you might be asking the same question if next month's CG will offer, say, a shield generator with Reinforced and Thermal Resistant blueprints applied. So, let me give you a universal answer that should be applicable to whatever will come next:

If you are competing with another player, then if all else is equal, the player who has the overpowered exclusive item will win over the other. To answer your specific question, you will never be able to win then.
Even shorter: it's an unfair advantage.

Total over-reaction and lack of foresight, as far as I'm concerned.

Reinforced, Thermal Resistant shield generators you say? Absolute damage, heat generation weaponry, reverb cascade, there's countless options. Same same with hull tanking, where the counter is new tactics like PP sniping or other disabling abilities. For every meta there is a counter right now, and I'll play this game all day with whatever you come up with.

The fundamental concept of competitive gameplay is to give yourself all the advantages, and your opponent all the disadvantages. That's how you win.

Now, if you are of the opinion that there's nothing in this specific scenario, with these double-engineered FSDs, where the above is applicable, see the post about Buckyball above. There'd be other examples, of course.

Yeah, I saw the Buckyball post. I'm disappointed their reaction is "Welp, gonna have to ban this item".

Sorry, but the games gotta evolve and change. If you aren't happy with that, that's all on you. You can't leave FD beholden to some community event which for some reason refuses to incorporate new things into that event. CRCRs ruined all the skill needed to haul corrosive cargo, ship transfers ruined ship mobility, but that's just how things go.

That said, I've already made suggestions before though.

 

[theothersteve7]

I'll play this game all day with whatever you come up with.

Sure. Three years from now, one ship from a dedicated CG player has the following on their FDL:

Efficient overcharged plasma accelerators
Long range overcharged railguns
Heavy duty lightweight armor
Reinforced thermal resist shields
Heavy duty resist augment shield boosters
Dirty clean thrusters
Charged enhanced weapon focused PD

Tell me, oh wise one, what is your counter without any double-engineered modules? How are you going to fight a ship that's twice as fast, with more armor, double the shields, and doing more damage than you possibly ever could?

The margin between an engineered ship and a double-engineered ship is only marginally smaller than the margin between an engineered ship and an unengineered ship. A few such modules aren't going to break the game, but if they maintain this as a pattern indefinitely, it will eventually break it. They are setting an expiration date to Elite with this decision.

 

[Jmanis]

Sure. Three years from now, one ship from a dedicated CG player has the following on their FDL:

Efficient overcharged plasma accelerators
Long range overcharged railguns
Heavy duty lightweight armor
Reinforced thermal resist shields
Heavy duty resist augment shield boosters
Dirty clean thrusters
Charged enhanced weapon focused PD

Tell me, oh wise one, what is your counter without any double-engineered modules? How are you going to fight a ship that's twice as fast, with more armor, double the shields, and doing more damage than you possibly ever could?

The margin between an engineered ship and a double-engineered ship is only marginally smaller than the margin between an engineered ship and an unengineered ship. A few such modules aren't going to break the game, but if they maintain this as a pattern indefinitely, it will eventually break it. They are setting an expiration date to Elite with this decision.

Bring a friend, since you're obviously playing in Open if you're up against that. Or is this some contrived tournament setting again which can't be adapted for dual and non-dual engineered ships?

That or simply outperform them. Or are we all issued the 1E player abilities too?

I await your response of "BUT INFINITY PLUS TWO!"

(Honestly? If a player did all those CGs and got that loadout? Bully for them, they deserve it)

 

[Gremlyn]

Bring a friend, since you're obviously playing in Open if you're up against that. Or is this some contrived tournament setting again which can't be adapted for dual and non-dual engineered ships?

That or simply outperform them. Or are we all issued the 1E player abilities too?

I await your response of "BUT INFINITY PLUS TWO!"

(Honestly? If a player did all those CGs and got that loadout? Bully for them, they deserve it)

This is the same power gamer vs casual game mentality that has killed many games player population in the past.

If you are happy with such imbalances in your game just because someone else got to spend more time on it then that is fine.....do not expect the vast majority to be happy with it.

All I am saying is everything should be available to everyone in some fashion with the right amount of effort for the reward, and not exclusively gated behind limited timed events. People have already mentioned how its given them a negative experience and no longer participate - this should be a worrying trend for any game that has a live community.

You originally asked "absolutely never be able to do without this" , I gave you an answer and so did some other commanders, but replying "BUT INFINITY PLUS TWO!" when someone replied with a legitimate concern does not further the discussion or help people understand your own view.