About the recent implementation of new weapons

With the conclusion of the Bridging the Gap Initiative we got our latest addition to the Arsenal: Advanced Multicannons. While a lot of people have already covered their effectiveness (Thanks goes to AXI here), I want to talk about the general implementation of weapons in Elite in the last year or so, which I have not been happy with at all.

At this moment the most used weapons for all combat activity seem to be what we have since powerplay hit: The lasers, (frag)cannons, multicannons and missiles together with railguns and PAs have been present since Elite year one. When engineers got released, build variety went nuts and a lot of optional functions have been added to each weapons, some more often used and some less.

Since then, no actually new weapons have been added to the game, and none of the new weapons except for the recently released MCs have been engineerable. Even the anti-thargoid weaponry is all based on our tech and can be seen as a slightly changed variant of existing gear. I simply feel like there is so much untapped potential in what new tools of destruction could be released. It can't be that all human scientist think of are more rocket launchers or some kind of cannon. Adding a copy-paste multicannon with fixed only and the possibility of synthesis for AX and even thinking that it's a viable alternative to anything makes me think FDev threw out the weapon designer and switched them with someone who only did exploration in Elite so far.

But all jokes aside, as a combat (and also AX-combat) player who hit combat elite before anything else I'm just massively disappointed with the way new guns are brought to my favorite universe. The shock cannon showed promise but had too many downsides for frequent use (nothing an overcharged multicannon couldn't do) and on top had no engineering. Guardian shard cannons are even fun to use in Human-PvE but nothing more, as a pacifier can do the same but in a far more superior way.

Then there's the fact the we only get more of existing weapon archetypes, there's so much untapped potential there. We have four different multi-cannons now, three different railguns and three different frag cannons. What about charge-beams or some sort of guardian plasma repeater or an energy-based cannon equivalent with thermal damage? We could have energy pulse throwers or a gun that deals extra damage if a lot of projectiles hit in a short timespan. Even in the conventional weapons branch we still miss high-cadence miniguns or airburst cannons or weapons that emit electric charges. There could be so much more, and all with its own engineering possibilities but it has to be another missile or multi-cannon.

And finally there's the major imbalance of some engineering upgrades that has been widely ignored over the years by fdev. What is rapid-fire even good for on MCs, Cannons, lasers if you can just go for overcharged or eficient? People will go for optimal DPS, DPE and ammo eficiency and some effects do neither make sense nor do they synergize well with any experimental effects. Just look at the beam laser meta in PvE, how thermal shock has been nerfed into uselessness or how badly scramble spectrum performs.

Elite has evolved in so many aspects over the years, we have a lot of new combat-based activities, but the things that make it great, the build-variety and the guns, have not changed a bit for quite some time now. So, after we got the exploration rework and saw how Fdev still cares, how about a weapon balancing pass and some new guns to go with it?
 
Explorers have 1 (one) optional module.
There are 4 (four) types of multicannon.

I'm curious how this leads you to the conclusion that we need more weapon choices.
 
Explorers have 1 (one) optional module.
There are 4 (four) types of multicannon.

I'm curious how this leads you to the conclusion that we need more weapon choices.

I'd really like to hear what kind of extra optional you envision for explorers.

On second thought, we might actually need more stuff to explore first. But this is a thread about the recent implementations of guns, let's not derail.
 
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I'd really like to hear what kind of extra optional you envision for explorers.

On second thought, we might actually need more stuff to explore first. But this is a thread about the recent implementations of guns, let's not derail.

We need more options for ALL the trades - hopefully FDev make enough development resources available to make everyone happy :)
 
The shock cannon showed promise but had too many downsides for frequent use (nothing an overcharged multicannon couldn't do) and on top had no engineering.
I think the point of at least some of these experimental weapons is that their positive effect is that they are balanced to match engineered options while being more readily available.

Guardian shard cannons are even fun to use in Human-PvE but nothing more, as a pacifier can do the same but in a far more superior way.
Your point being exactly? FTR the PP-locked pacifier is a Large hardpoint weapon only while the Guardian Shard cannon comes in S/M options - as well as having an SLF based around a variante of it.

We have four different multi-cannons now, three different railguns and three different frag cannons. What about charge-beams or some sort of guardian plasma repeater or an energy-based cannon equivalent with thermal damage?
While I get where you are coming from (I am not a big fan of ammo based weapons myself) there is game lore to contend with. Maybe energy weapon based adaptations of Guardian type technology will come in time but I am not holding out hope for it personally.

We could have energy pulse throwers or a gun that deals extra damage if a lot of projectiles hit in a short timespan. Even in the conventional weapons branch we still miss high-cadence miniguns or airburst cannons or weapons that emit electric charges. There could be so much more, and all with its own engineering possibilities but it has to be another missile or multi-cannon.
  • We do have airburst cannons after a fashion - the Fletchette/Flak Launchers are effectively that. There is also the High Yield Shell special effect for Cannons which could also count.
  • As for high-cadence miniguns - that is where rapid fire engineering mods are arguably are positioned.
  • As for electric-charge weapons - I do not believe there is a precedent for such a weapon in Elite lore, the X-Series had (X3 and prior) the Ion Disruptor which seems to match what you are asking for but I see no justification for the introduction of such a weapon into ED. There are Kinetic damage mods for Thermal weapons and Thermal damage mods for Kinetic weapons, plus the Thermal Cascade special effect for Cannons/Missiles

And finally there's the major imbalance of some engineering upgrades that has been widely ignored over the years by fdev. What is rapid-fire even good for on MCs, Cannons, lasers if you can just go for overcharged or eficient? People will go for optimal DPS, DPE and ammo eficiency and some effects do neither make sense nor do they synergize well with any experimental effects. Just look at the beam laser meta in PvE, how thermal shock has been nerfed into uselessness or how badly scramble spectrum performs.
I think part of the problem is PvP balancing and PvE balancing rarely mix well and trying to compromise between the two invariably results in a balance that either suits neither or favours one over the other. FDev have not ignored the balancing concerns but rather have made several attempts at rebalancing the options, the trouble is there are fundamentally unreconcilable differences of opinion between at least some quarters of the community about how things should be balanced.

Elite has evolved in so many aspects over the years, we have a lot of new combat-based activities, but the things that make it great, the build-variety and the guns, have not changed a bit for quite some time now. So, after we got the exploration rework and saw how Fdev still cares, how about a weapon balancing pass and some new guns to go with it?
How about FD fix the mess they have made of exploration first before they spend any more time on yet another pass on weapon balancing (which is arguably pointless).
 
I think the point of at least some of these experimental weapons is that their positive effect is that they are balanced to match engineered options while being more readily available.

This point is no point at all, engineered weapons are far superior, everyone who want's to get into combat seriously engineeres their weapons. Enzymes and flechette are a gimmick that don't match anything at all.

Your point being exactly? FTR the PP-locked pacifier is a Large hardpoint weapon only while the Guardian Shard cannon comes in S/M options - as well as having an SLF based around a variante of it.

Yet you can simply engineer a frag cannon for thermal damage to do the same thing, but Fdev had to introduce a new weapon type instead of giving us the possiblity to simply engineer fraggos for AX damage.

  • We do have airburst cannons after a fashion - the Fletchette/Flak Launchers are effectively that. There is also the High Yield Shell special effect for Cannons which could also count.
  • As for high-cadence miniguns - that is where rapid fire engineering mods are arguably are positioned.
  • As for electric-charge weapons - I do not believe there is a precedent for such a weapon in Elite lore, the X-Series had (X3 and prior) the Ion Disruptor which seems to match what you are asking for but I see no justification for the introduction of such a weapon into ED. There are Kinetic damage mods for Thermal weapons and Thermal damage mods for Kinetic weapons, plus the Thermal Cascade special effect for Cannons/Missiles

  • They are airburst launchers and there's a huge difference to what you described, this is an airburst cannon:
    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UolMYY7QaA
    Low armor piercing capabilities in a weapon that does not need to hit directly but explodes in close proximity to a target
  • Rapid fire is absolutely pointless as described above, it literally gives you nothing over another modification as effects like scramble spectrum can't stack and thermal shock etc. are damage-dependant. We have multicannons, which is a heavy-caliber auto-firing weapon with multiple barrels. A minigun has a cadence of maybe 4000-6000 shots per minute, reaching a high bullet density to hit quick targets in the air or quickly cover an area with fire, we do NOT have anything like that.

I think part of the problem is PvP balancing and PvE balancing rarely mix well and trying to compromise between the two invariably results in a balance that either suits neither or favours one over the other. FDev have not ignored the balancing concerns but rather have made several attempts at rebalancing the options, the trouble is there are fundamentally unreconcilable differences of opinion between at least some quarters of the community about how things should be balanced.

While this is partially true, Fdev could finally simply adjust perks to work differently in PvP than in PvE. Thermal shock for example got nerfed up to a maximum which makes sense as it was overpowered in PvP, but in PvE it simply is not effective at all. Removing this maximum heat inflicted treshold from PvE would be no big deal. The epic fail with drag munitions recently showed how out of touch they are with the combat community.

How about FD fix the mess they have made of exploration first before they spend any more time on yet another pass on weapon balancing (which is arguably pointless).

I don't know what mess you mean, it's better than ever, I took my first flight to Sag A and colonia and had a great time. It's faster and more usable, exactly what you need for a mode which has a lot less direct gameplay involved than combat. You can make scanning a system for the millionth time only THAT engaging. Apart from that combat is the most underpaid playstyle as of now, together with being far more dangerous than anything else out there.
 
I don't know what mess you mean, it's better than ever, I took my first flight to Sag A and colonia and had a great time. It's faster and more usable, exactly what you need for a mode which has a lot less direct gameplay involved than combat. You can make scanning a system for the millionth time only THAT engaging.

My emphasis above:
Making something simpler because there's no gameplay is exactly the opposite (imo) of what FDev should have done with exploration. Rather than just giving up and saying "It's boring, so lets just make it simple" they should have actually ADDED some gamplay, and they certainly shouldn't have removed gameplay that people had spent thousands of hours enjoying.

As far as making it engaging the millionth time, I found killing ships over and over again stopped being engaging around the 100 mark but I've explored over 30,000 systems and still going. Changing the weapon systems available for combat won't make it more fun for me - it still we be repetitive and monotonous.
 
This point is no point at all, engineered weapons are far superior
I disagree - yes, you may be able to engineer a stock weapon to be superior BUT that does not change the fact that it matches at least some non-maximally engineered weapons while not requiring the additional search, fetch and carry steps that engineering mandates.

Yet you can simply engineer a frag cannon for thermal damage to do the same thing,
I disagree... a Thermal mod would not achieve the same effect.

but Fdev had to introduce a new weapon type instead of giving us the possiblity to simply engineer fraggos for AX damage.
I don't necessarily disagree and the latter may come in time but I would not hold my breath. Personally, I feel FD have taken a reasonable approach by introducing new weapons that can not be engineered and are balanced pretty well from the outset. Sure I would love gimbal mount guardian weapons but it is far from being a necessity for me personally.

  • They are airburst launchers and there's a huge difference to what you described, this is an airburst cannon:
    Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4UolMYY7QaA
    Low armor piercing capabilities in a weapon that does not need to hit directly but explodes in close proximity to a target
Low armor penetration perhaps but at least one of them (RRFleL/RRFlaL) ignores shields and the other is more effective against Thargoid swarms (allegedly)... ultimately it all comes down to balancing and in some cases the demands of PvPers.

  • Rapid fire is absolutely pointless as described above, it literally gives you nothing over another modification as effects like scramble spectrum can't stack and thermal shock etc. are damage-dependant. We have multicannons, which is a heavy-caliber auto-firing weapon with multiple barrels. A minigun has a cadence of maybe 4000-6000 shots per minute, reaching a high bullet density to hit quick targets in the air or quickly cover an area with fire, we do NOT have anything like that.
Fixed weapon, no target selected, press trigger - spray and pray. Doable but does not fit well as a concept in a space game plus the kind of re-fire rates you are referring to is an unrealistic expectation for a variety of technical reasons. To achieve a comparable effect you can use a fixed beam though. Spray and pray is never a good idea in space...
Arguably spray and pray approach to combat in a game like ED is largely pointless.

While this is partially true, Fdev could finally simply adjust perks to work differently in PvP than in PvE.
Not true - if it were they would have done so already. In MMOs where they do adjust the damage for PvP the PvP environment it is adjusted for is typically a different mode. While FD could theoretically adjust the weapons in different game modes (Open/Group/Solo) it would create other issues and would fly in the face of all-modes being equal.

I don't know what mess you mean, it's better than ever
I disagree - I prefer the original exploration mechanics to the mini-game hell they have created.
 
As far as making it engaging the millionth time, I found killing ships over and over again stopped being engaging around the 100 mark but I've explored over 30,000 systems and still going. Changing the weapon systems available for combat won't make it more fun for me - it still we be repetitive and monotonous.

Then that's personal preference.

There's two way of creating more gameplay now: Either we get more tools or more ways to modify our gear to vary the way we tackle combat encounters, or we get different combat situations to tackle with our current gear. We haven't got either, just parralel universe of AX warfare that is 70% apart of what we do and needs separate gear.
 
Then that's personal preference.

There's two way of creating more gameplay now: Either we get more tools or more ways to modify our gear to vary the way we tackle combat encounters, or we get different combat situations to tackle with our current gear. We haven't got either, just parralel universe of AX warfare that is 70% apart of what we do and needs separate gear.

The game is, as they say, a mile wide and an inch deep. FDev seem focused on reducing the width, rather than increasing the depth. This applies to ALL trades.
 
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