Adding transducers to my VR cockpit.

[wstephenson]

Edit: As I recall, LFE is only intended for the very lowest audio range. Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think it can output anything above 120 hz. So if you're looking to use the LFE out to relay frequencies above 120 hz up to say 5000 hz. Then you're out of luck. I'm not 100% on this, but I think this is how LFE works.

2. edit: Here you go:
https://www.dolby.com/uploadedFiles/Assets/US/Doc/Professional/38_LFE.pdf

Also note that a sub out isn't the same as an LFE out.

Just saw this edit. Thanks for that Dolby document!

We're talking semantics at this point, because irrespective of whether the channel is called Sub or LFE, it contains frequencies around between 5 and 200Hz that can feed either a sub or an LFE. I may have started this by naively referring to this channel as LFE to sound better informed, but as it's the only thing we can use to drive our Subs/Buttkickers (in a surround setup), the labelling isn't significant. Like a sub, a BK can't use anything above 200Hz. Both of us have confirmed that our sub/BKs are doing nothing except on hyperjump.

The Dolby PDF does say this useful thing, though: "Consumer Dolby Digital products that reproducemultichannel sound must combine the LFE channel in the proper acoustic mixingratio with the bass from the other channels for proper reproduction". While this is stated in the context of Dolby encoding, which isn't necessarily in use here, the statement holds - the bass frequencies should be combined and sent to the output speaker that is able to reproduce them.

As an example, look at the Front Left and Front Right channels in the Audacity screenshot I posted above between 45 and 60 seconds, in the 40 Hz and below range. This is the pulsing effect you get while exiting a station's airlock force field, and it's doing chocolate fireguard* service on channels 1 and 2 where those speakers won't be able to reproduce it meaningfully. Same goes for those 5Hz stripes at 2:05 - those are multicannon shots leaving the barrel, as mentioned by Matthew Florianz in the Control Conference video linked above.

* slang Brit. A useless thing.

 

[Globusdiablo]

Don't think I'll have time, sorry.

Deleted.

 

[wstephenson]

Did you read the link to Dolby that I posted? The LFE out is NOT the same as a sub out. The LFE is working as intended in my opinion. If you want more frequencies to boost for a buttkicker, it has to be a mix/sub signal. LFE is a very specific output.
I don't think you can find anyone running a buttkicker via LFE out. No matter what some dev said. Did he actually play E: D with a buttkicker via LFE out, or was he stating that it was possible? Which it is, but not with the intended effect. Check the Dolby link, I found it very enlightening.

We've got our wires crossed here, and it was my fault. I was using the specific term 'LFE out' but meaning 'Sub out'. I don't have any equipment with a separate 'LFE out'. So we can stop worrying about whether I'm barking up the wrong LFE tree - i'm supposed to be using the same frequencies as a subwoofer!

The ButtKicker docs recommend using Sub out where present in a surround setup: https://thebuttkicker.com/content/BK-GR2_QSG.pdf

And yeah, I read the Dolby link, but after making the post you are replying to .

Don't think I'll have time, sorry.

No worries, now that I spent all yesterday staring at frequency analysers I'm pretty sure that this is just how the game always does it, absent some hidden state in the game or its audio middleware.

 

[Globusdiablo]

Just saw this edit. Thanks for that Dolby document!

We're talking semantics at this point, because irrespective of whether the channel is called Sub or LFE, it contains frequencies around between 5 and 200Hz that can feed either a sub or an LFE. I may have started this by naively referring to this channel as LFE to sound better informed, but as it's the only thing we can use to drive our Subs/Buttkickers (in a surround setup), the labelling isn't significant. Like a sub, a BK can't use anything above 200Hz. Both of us have confirmed that our sub/BKs are doing nothing except on hyperjump.

The Dolby PDF does say this useful thing, though: "Consumer Dolby Digital products that reproducemultichannel sound must combine the LFE channel in the proper acoustic mixingratio with the bass from the other channels for proper reproduction". While this is stated in the context of Dolby encoding, which isn't necessarily in use here, the statement holds - the bass frequencies should be combined and sent to the output speaker that is able to reproduce them.

As an example, look at the Front Left and Front Right channels in the Audacity screenshot I posted above between 45 and 60 seconds, in the 40 Hz and below range. This is the pulsing effect you get while exiting a station's airlock force field, and it's doing chocolate fireguard* service on channels 1 and 2 where those speakers won't be able to reproduce it meaningfully. Same goes for those 5Hz stripes at 2:05 - those are multicannon shots leaving the barrel, as mentioned by Matthew Florianz in the Control Conference video linked above.

* slang Brit. A useless thing.

Agree. Which tells us that LFE is very content specific, and not outputting everything below 120 hz unless source is coded to do so. Ergo; not suitable for buttkicker.

I agree that it seems odd, but I think you could find the signal you want from a sub out. LFE out is a no go.

 

[Globusdiablo]

We've got our wires crossed here, and it was my fault. I was using the specific term 'LFE out' but meaning 'Sub out'. I don't have any equipment with a separate 'LFE out'. So we can stop worrying about whether I'm barking up the wrong LFE tree - i'm supposed to be using the same frequencies as a subwoofer!...

Ah. Explains alot. Ok, well then I'm confused on a different level. A traditional sub out should be carrying all frequencies below a given crossover. I would double check my sub out settings at all levels.

I'll be withdrawing from the debate as I'm LFE specific.

 

[wstephenson]

Research Mission

So since Herbrand has excused themselves, would you or anyone else be interested in some fieldwork gathering multichannel recordings of Elite output? I can't offer much besides forum Reputation as I'm clean out of Modular Terminals... No particular equipment needed, just a little time.

1. In Elite, set Audio to DTS; Headphone X off and Full Range off
2. Install VoiceMeeter Banana and run it
3. Set 'VoiceMeeter Input' as the default windows audio device
4. In Windows playback devices, 'Configure' Voicemeeter Input and set it to 7.1, all channels, no Full Range speakers
5. In VoiceMeeter, set output A1 (above the tape deck) to your usual windows default audio device
6. Right click the tape deck to open recording properties
7. Click the Post Fade/BUS A1 radio button to record what's going to that output
8. Set the recording type to WAV
9. Set the number of channels to record as 8 (7.1)
10. Close the recording properties
11. Click the record button beneath the tape deck
12. Play some Elite and do things you would expect to generate subwoofer activities
13. Click the stop button on the tape deck, and send me the file somehow. I'll load it up in Audacity and present it nicely.

To revert to your previous setup:

1. Set your windows default device back to what it was
2. Set Elite's DTS:Headphone X and Full Range settings to what they were, if needed
3. Uninstall Voicemeeter Banana

 

[Globusdiablo]

So since Herbrand has excused themselves, would you or anyone else be interested in some fieldwork gathering multichannel recordings of Elite output? I can't offer much besides forum Reputation as I'm clean out of Modular Terminals... No particular equipment needed, just a little time.

1. In Elite, set Audio to DTS; Headphone X off and Full Range off
2. Install VoiceMeeter Banana and run it
3. Set 'VoiceMeeter Input' as the default windows audio device
4. In Windows playback devices, 'Configure' Voicemeeter Input and set it to 7.1, all channels, no Full Range speakers
5. In VoiceMeeter, set output A1 (above the tape deck) to your usual windows default audio device
6. Right click the tape deck to open recording properties
7. Click the Post Fade/BUS A1 radio button to record what's going to that output
8. Set the recording type to WAV
9. Set the number of channels to record as 8 (7.1)
10. Close the recording properties
11. Click the record button beneath the tape deck
12. Play some Elite and do things you would expect to generate subwoofer activities
13. Click the stop button on the tape deck, and send me the file somehow. I'll load it up in Audacity and present it nicely.

To revert to your previous setup:

1. Set your windows default device back to what it was
2. Set Elite's DTS:Headphone X and Full Range settings to what they were, if needed
3. Uninstall Voicemeeter Banana

Though I won't be participating in your experiment I will acknowledge that your findings seem to suggest that what we are actually hearing in-game depends on our audio setup. If you're recording audio at <200 (120) hz that isn't being output via dedicated .1 sub (LFE) out, then something would indeed seem to be amiss within the coding done by FD.

Good luck in your search for the truth.

 

[Globusdiablo]

1. In Elite, set Audio to DTS; Headphone X off and Full Range off
2. Install VoiceMeeter Banana and run it
3. Set 'VoiceMeeter Input' as the default windows audio device
4. In Windows playback devices, 'Configure' Voicemeeter Input and set it to 7.1, all channels, no Full Range speakers

...

Btw, my options in-game say DTSX: enable or disable. I assume that enabling DTSX will leave you with a stereo headphone signal (so no .1). Though I noticed that it was set to default enabled and my receiver still registers a 5.1 signal from E: D, so.... ? I haven't had an opportunity to register any difference from my sub after disabling DTSX (if any), but will report back.

And I can't turn full range off, I can choose between 4 different settings (if I recall). I play with night time setting as it supposedly enhances the subtle details while playing at low living room levels (which i do).

And I'll try setting windows audio setting to stereo 2.0 instead of 5.1 to see if that changes audio (sub activity). My amp should send all frequencies below 120 hz to the LFE sub (it does with music and movies from my PS3), despite a 2.0 PC setting.

More later.

And sorry if this topic is hijacking the OP...

 

[wstephenson]

Btw, my options in-game say DTSX: enable or disable. I assume that enabling DTSX will leave you with a stereo headphone signal (so no .1). Though I noticed that it was set to default enabled and my receiver still registers a 5.1 signal from E: D, so.... ? I haven't had an opportunity to register any difference from my sub after disabling DTSX (if any), but will report back.

Yes, it's a choice between Enable and Disable. You would have thought that enabling it would reduce eg a 7.1 output to 2.0, but no, the same channels are still active. Perhaps it only affects front left and right channels, perhaps it mixes the other channels onto them but leaves the original content there. Hard to prove.

And I can't turn full range off, I can choose between 4 different settings (if I recall). I play with night time setting as it supposedly enhances the subtle details while playing at low living room levels (which i do).

I have [NORMAL, FULL RANGE, NIGHT TIME, BOOST]. By Full Range off, I mean Normal .

And I'll try setting windows audio setting to stereo 2.0 instead of 5.1 to see if that changes audio (sub activity). My amp should send all frequencies below 120 hz to the LFE sub (it does with music and movies from my PS3), despite a 2.0 PC setting.

But that will spoil your surround. Any chance you can force this cross-mix and filter to LFE/sub behaviour (that I am doing in software) while keeping the other 5.0 inputs and outputs the same?

 

[Globusdiablo]

...But that will spoil your surround. Any chance you can force this cross-mix and filter to LFE/sub behaviour (that I am doing in software) while keeping the other 5.0 inputs and outputs the same?

Good lord man! You're on to something! When testing digital 5.1 audio from windows audio device (test signal) everything works fine. If I set windows audio device to 2.0 stereo my amp plays stereo in two satelittes AND LOTS OF JUICY BASS FROM THE SUB (VIA LFE). When I set windows audio devices to 5.1 (now proven to work as intended) I get sweet audio in all 5 satellites and NADA/SILCH from my sub!... (EDIT: When play E: D of course. Intro music)

So it's not Windows audio devices. It's not any given amp. It's not any given audio software.

It's FD. They've borked the .1. There's plenty of audio below 200 (120) hz. It's there in digital 2.0 stereo and channeled correctly to sub via amp. But nothing (apart from FSD boom) in the .1 of digital surround.

This is a huge bug, and probably a thread of its own... Do it WS.

 

[wstephenson]

Hi, I had the same issue, to go around it I installed Equalizer APO, and configured it this way:

I set the audio to 7.1, then I copied over some channel to others like this:

https://i.imgur.com/cIA02JM.jpg

Then I attached my subwoofer to the Sub output, where I get ALL the channels at the same time, and set the low-pass filter to 60Hz. Works well enough for me.

Globusdiablo, the above would be a software workaround to get 5 channel surround and the low bass stuff back in the .1. I haven't used this software. I'm still thinking how I would do it with VoiceMeeter.

 

[Globusdiablo]

GlobusDiablo, the above would be a software workaround to get 5 channel surround and the low bass stuff back in the .1. I haven't used this software. I'm still thinking how I would do it with VoiceMeeter.

Not looking for a workaround. I've been playing E: D for years via digital 5.1, and never noticed .1 was borked. Huge fail by FD...

 

[wstephenson]

I wonder if it's a regression? I had a buckshee 5.1 setup going maybe last year, with 3 different sets of powered speakers and my old sub all plugged into my sound card and couldn't get the sub to work, but blamed it on Realtek. This was probably in the 2.1, 2.2 timeframe.

Anyway I'm going to set up a stereo setup as Frank_G describes and actually play the game a bit tonight, instead of looking at spectrum analysers.

Glad I could enlighten you - perhaps playing with 2.1 and proper bass will be a refreshing change from surround!

 

[Globusdiablo]

I wonder if it's a regression?...

I think it might be. I was pretty zealous about the digital surround when the game came out. I must have just stopped paying attention.

Anyway. Created a bug report. If anyone in this thread would like actual audio coming out of the sub/LFE .1 output, feel free to drop by and share your sentiment:

https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...nal-broken-non-existent?p=6056344#post6056344

 

[Globusdiablo]

Not sure if this has any relevance in this thread but posting to be sure;

If you're wondering where the digital sub/LFE signal has disappeared to when using an amp/receiver for E: D, make sure you have your receiver/amp set to "multi channel in" and not direct, pure direct or some such as they don't support PCM digital surround.

For further explanation check here:
https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...non-existent?p=6077864&viewfull=1#post6077864

 

[dogbite]

I don't use Voicemeter (I don't use headphones) so I have no knowledge of how this affects setting up for it, but it may be worth repeating for some. I used Buttkicker in the way back days and the transducers in my sig now. I have found that most games regardless of whether they use 5:1 send a lot of bass to the other speakers. Perhaps because a lot of people use stereo headphones. If I don't re-direct the bass from the other 4 speakers to the sub (easy in the SoundBlaster Creative Control Panel), I get little or nothing to my transducers. In Assetto the F1 is hardly detected. In IRacing it isn't there at all even in the Nascar and stock cars unless I do this. I find some sounds in ED translate better than others.
Doom 3 is a good example of 5:1 done properly. John Carmack famously brought in the sound producer of the band Nine Inch Nails to do the first true 5:1 game. Doom 3 does not need bass redirection to vibrate my seat. Nor does DCS and a couple of others that I play.
With Ed even with re-direction on ( can't remember if it works without this), I find things that should vibrate well, like firing cannons, don't do much at all. ED is definitely an odd duck in this regard. One thing seems certain. Not all games do sound equally.

 

[wstephenson]

I don't use Voicemeter (I don't use headphones) so I have no knowledge of how this affects setting up for it, but it may be worth repeating for some. I used Buttkicker in the way back days and the transducers in my sig now. I have found that most games regardless of whether they use 5:1 send a lot of bass to the other speakers. Perhaps because a lot of people use stereo headphones.

I think it makes sense to send bass to full range surround speakers, but it should be going to the sub as well, because this has a better presence in those frequencies.

I'll be interested to know whether 5.1 has been broken by one of the audio performance/refactoring passes that have happened in season 2, or whether it was broken all along and masked by AV receivers' re-mixing of the signal, or in the Dolby Digital Live 5.1 encoding on the sound card to fit multichannel over TOSLink.

If I don't re-direct the bass from the other 4 speakers to the sub (easy in the SoundBlaster Creative Control Panel), I get little or nothing to my transducers. In Assetto the F1 is hardly detected. In IRacing it isn't there at all even in the Nascar and stock cars unless I do this. I find some sounds in ED translate better than others.
Doom 3 is a good example of 5:1 done properly. John Carmack famously brought in the sound producer of the band Nine Inch Nails to do the first true 5:1 game. Doom 3 does not need bass redirection to vibrate my seat. Nor does DCS and a couple of others that I play.
With Ed even with re-direction on ( can't remember if it works without this), I find things that should vibrate well, like firing cannons, don't do much at all. ED is definitely an odd duck in this regard. One thing seems certain. Not all games do sound equally.

This is true. Alien: Isolation is my other testcase and it sends a lot more to the sub without post-processing. I should give War Thunder another go though.

 

[dogbite]

This is true. Alien: Isolation is my other testcase and it sends a lot more to the sub without post-processing. I should give War Thunder another go though.

I don't fly War Thunder, but I love the feel of Battle of Stalingrad in my chair. Especially weapons fire and it does have the sweetest looking tracer fire I have seen in VR. My fave is a cold start of the Mi8 in DCS though.

 

[wstephenson]

So what's your setup and where do you do the redirection of the bass? I guess you have the surround speakers on the X-Fi and the bass shaker amp on motherboard sound, or are you splitting the analog sub out? How is the surround system connected to the soundcard?

PS Have re-downloaded War Thunder, will test.

 

[dogbite]

So what's your setup and where do you do the redirection of the bass? I guess you have the surround speakers on the X-Fi and the bass shaker amp on motherboard sound, or are you splitting the analog sub out? How is the surround system connected to the soundcard?

PS Have re-downloaded War Thunder, will test.

My parts are in my sig. I just y-split the signal from the X-fi sub/cntr out.One lead goes to an "audio in" on the Sony. The 2 transducers in the chair are wired in series to the Sony. I could drive another 2 x50 watt Aurals, but I found the 4 sufficient to the task. The other lead run to my Loitech 5:1 surround. Pretty simple.