AI Debacle

[Ziljan]

I disagree.
No Offense.
But I have never Seen a CMDR which can Snipe your FSD on 3km Distance with his Railguns and thus prevent you from Escaping within Seconds despite you having Outmaneuvered him to get some Distance.

I had this exact thing happen to me in my first month of Elite, flying my Asp in Open. About 14 months ago, the only time that Open was actually scary. Before all the good players left for more challenging games.


And btw, if an enemy has Rails (or any fixed weapon), and you can outmaneuver him at all, the absolute last thing you want to do is gain distance. Rails are so much easier to aim from >1.5km away.

 

[relayer]

Is this a serious post? "invisble NPCS" at 2km? You mean NPCs that are small ships with a low heat signature?

Yeah, as reported elsewhere. Twice today - in different systems, different AI "pilots" - Elite Anacondas have appeared on the radar directly in front of me (one so close we bonked uglies). I'm not complaining - I switched to a rabbited Cobra MkIII a few days ago after seeing this kind of thing for myself.

The other thing is that it should be impossible for a combat-fit Anaconda to chase - and catch up to -a Cobra MkIII. This happened with #2 Anaconda. I had a destination on my route to hi-wake to and barely escaped. The Anaconda was closing the gap.

So, really, maybe you just haven't had the ghost-ships appear with chaingun PAs in your playtime. Plenty others have had similar experiences, made videos of these things.

 

[Ziljan]

Yeah, as reported elsewhere. Twice today - in different systems, different AI "pilots" - Elite Anacondas have appeared on the radar directly in front of me (one so close we bonked uglies). I'm not complaining - I switched to a rabbited Cobra MkIII a few days ago after seeing this for myself.

The other thing is that it should be impossible for a combat Anaconda to chase - and catch up to -a Cobra MkIII. This happened with #2 Anaconda. I had a destination on my route to hi-wake to and barely escaped. The Anaconda was closing the gap.

Why is discussing things like this, observed and video'd, an occasion to swing your mighty ego and dribble off trash talk? I don't care how good a pilot you are or you think you are, immediately calling "liar" or disguising that behind sickly-sweet sentences doesn't add anything to the game or the discussion. Go play pewpew; since all this is somehow beneath your contempt, you must be wasting your time posting here.

Oh yeah, on being "professional" at a game; just... sad.

You are clearly mad about something, and you're taking it out on me. First off, I am not a pew pew player. I am an explorer. I am not very good at combat quite frankly compared to most of the players I have encountered in Open, but I have to wonder why so many others are claiming to have difficulty doing basic things, like escaping unwanted combat. I can hold my own in any PVE combat situation in 2.1, but that is not even what I am talking about here. And who said anything about "professional" gamers? I have mentioned that the game is more FUN if you actually dive into the details and mechanics of the game. People who aren't curious about how the game works are what bothers me.

If you just want things handed to you on a velvet lined silver platter, you will get very little sympathy from me when you rebuy because you didn't do your homework.

As for bugs like ships spawning on top of you, or Anacondas exceeding 440 m/s, or missing textures on NPCs, yeah, I am in complete agreement. File a bug report, and the chill out in a high sec and cool your flame jets.

 

[ilo]

there also this rumour of ships funded by robigo mines are built with bills and not alloys and therefore have less resistance than a smoking paper.. [weird]

and it is not a "git gud" commented, id never do that, it is just a put your things together and start thinking/practising. not that we all can master it but when someone discusses about 4 pips to systems, clearly hasent even read the manual.

 

[Cynaqq]

...snip...

You sound very smart here but, wait, no, you don't actually.

High rank AI doesn't have simple stat boosts. If that was the case, we would be all over it. Those pro players you seem to like to put in their place go up in arms about almost anything since the release, do you really think they would eat up the simple number boosts and become convinced the AI has really improved?

What happens is much more advanced than you think. Now, high rank AI has the ability to perfectly utilize power management and use each individual thruster on their ship with dead on accuracy. Let me tell you how that works.

You obviously realized the pips have half values too. It's very hard to utilize that last little half pip as a player because you can only press buttons so quickly. However, the AI can hit as many key presses a second as the CPU can process so that has to be artificially limited by the programmer. Mathematically, perfect pip management uses the distributor so efficiently, it's like they have 15-20% more energy in their ships. They don't lose time in the split seconds we wait for distributor to fill up.

Another thing is, I, for example, don't have analogue inputs for my vertical thrusters. I only have it for side thrusters, yaw, pitch and roll. When you want to achieve the pendulum effect to maximize your pitch rate, while FA is ON;

First, you have to make sure you are smack in the middle of blue, which changes as you pitch up since the ship loses velocity due to the turn, so you gotta cut back on the throttle a little as you dive into the turn, while applying down thrust so the ships forward momentum doesn't diminish too quickly, stalling the ship in place by bringing the heading vector into that angle where thrusters are least effective. The best way to achieve this is to adjust the down thrust precisely, which you can't do without an analogue input, which you need to practice to perfect.

Second, as the turn progresses and the ships momentum is once more aligned with it's nose, you now gotta apply more thrust to the rear and apply some up thrust so the reverse of the first situation doesn't happen. This is, again, best done with an analogue input by applying smooth ramps of thrust instead of full on or off.

Now, this sounds like I'm proving your point. Even without sneaky stat boosts, AI will always prevail against a human player.

Well, this is not the case. Humans have infinitely better behavior pattern recognition compared to computers. Computers are only better at following mathematics. They can do split second deductions based on statistics. However, they are impossibly crap at seeing the overall picture. A human will always be able to recognize basic steps in the AI behavior, learn its movement loops, will determine the best angle and sequence of attack. A human will always exploit the repetition in AI behavior. A person will always be better at deciding when to boost, when to ram, when to change tactics, when to disengage and when to commit. A human has the mental capacity to force situations an AI can't keep track of. Many times mathematically most efficient actions will not be the best for a particular scenario because humans have the capacity to become unpredictable, a quality which is sadly lacking from NPCs in any game.

So, no. Being a pro or a casual has nothing to do with this.

The players which you call 'casuals' will leave one way or the other. It's always the 'pros' who keep the game and the community going in the long run. Look at whichever game you want. Catering to casuals have never been the key for longevity of games, and this is a totally different discussion.

 

[Sunleader]

I had this exact thing happen to me in my first month of Elite, flying my Asp in Open. About 14 months ago, the only time that Open was actually scary. Before all the good players left for more challenging games.


And btw, if an enemy has Rails (or any fixed weapon), and you can outmaneuver him at all, the absolute last thing you want to do is gain distance. Rails are so much easier to aim from >1.5km away.

Mate no Offense.
But NEVER EVEN ONCE has an Enemy CMDR Dropped my FSD on 3km Distance after I Outmaneuvered him.

Heck. I do know that I was hit by maybe every 5th or so Shot on 3km Distance by CMDRs
But not by 9 out of 10 Shots like current NPCs.


1.5km is no Big Distance. You dont need Rails for this either. on this Range you can Hit Pretty Good even with Gimballed.
Thats no Surprise.

I said 3km.


I had some Combat over the Last few Days to make sure I sit in the Top 10% of the Community Event.
And when Retreating due to having too many Enemies or cause my Shields Dropped.
I had NPCs Shooting me with almost 100% Accuracy using Fixed Weapons on 4km
Usually I only stop Registering Constant Hit Streams when the NPC is 4.3km or Further away.


In Comparisson.
In Open Play when Evading an Enemy CMDR.
I usually Stop Registering Constant Hits on 2.5km



And no Mate.
I am using an Imperial Clipper.
So in my Case given that I can Outrun most Enemies. Gaining Distance is the Best Bet to Escape an Enemy.

 

[Ziljan]

Mate no Offense.
But NEVER EVEN ONCE has an Enemy CMDR Dropped my FSD on 3km Distance after I Outmaneuvered him.

Heck. I do know that I was hit by maybe every 5th or so Shot on 3km Distance by CMDRs
But not by 9 out of 10 Shots like current NPCs.


1.5km is no Big Distance. You dont need Rails for this either. on this Range you can Hit Pretty Good even with Gimballed.
Thats no Surprise.

I said 3km.


I had some Combat over the Last few Days to make sure I sit in the Top 10% of the Community Event.
And when Retreating due to having too many Enemies or cause my Shields Dropped.
I had NPCs Shooting me with almost 100% Accuracy using Fixed Weapons on 4km
Usually I only stop Registering Constant Hit Streams when the NPC is 4.3km or Further away.


In Comparisson.
In Open Play when Evading an Enemy CMDR.
I usually Stop Registering Constant Hits on 2.5km



And no Mate.
I am using an Imperial Clipper.
So in my Case given that I can Outrun most Enemies. Gaining Distance is the Best Bet to Escape an Enemy.

I did say it was the first month I played, and it wasn't a full 3km true, more like 2.7 km as he sniped me from behind as I exited the mail slot. Lost 3 Asps in 10 minutes this way, till I finally learned my lesson and bought a Cobra before leaving again. Back then I tended to flee in straight lines so I was an easy target. The AI is pretty good at lining up these easy steady shots. Especially on ships with BIG hitboxes like the Asp or the Clipper.

Not sure if you played Beta, but engi mods allow increased range to almost 5 km. Which is very likely why you were being nailed from range.

Gaining distance works well if you have the defenses/shields to pull it off. However if you are heading away from an Enemy that is nearly facing you, and your shields are already down, then you are easy meat for for the next 10-15 seconds until you get out of range, as I am sure you know by now. You may have only heard the rail sound, but the Anaconda has a pretty tight firing pattern convergence. The odds are high that you were hit with a few full force volleys before your FSD was shot out. Anacondas can lay down devastating damage if they point at you your back from within their effective range. Even fast small ships with a small profile, like the Cobra, can get nailed by them from unusually high distances because of their hardpoint convergence.

As for NPC aiming accuracy, I have been experiencing the exact opposite. They can't seem to hit at all with PAs and their rails only hit 20% of the time from ANY range even when I am in their firing arc. Since 2.1.02 dropped, their aiming has gotten even worse. The D3 shields on my DBS (small ship with a BIG hitbox) last for 2 minutes against a Master NPC while doing nothing but standing stock still with 4 pips to SYS. They still miss!!! It's flipping sad I tell you.

Anyway, I'm sorry about your loss. Sounds like you almost made it too.

 

[CaptainKremmen]

...

Before all the good players left for more challenging games.

...

That explains why I'm still playing!

Boom, boom, tiissh. I'm here all week.

 

[Ryder35]

I think the early hype about AI when 2.1 dropped spooked everyone into thinking that it's still overpowered, instead of realizing they may not yet have the skills they need to drive some of the ships they have.

This has been the result of too much too fast.

Many of us who took months to get into an Anaconda had the time in smaller ships to hone the basic skills needed to survive, if not win, when attacked. Newer players can now earn credits much faster and hence, often get into large ships that require good basic skills that really need to be automatic muscle memory responses in a given situation.

+1, don't know if this applies to the OP though. I cleared my save last week and have been trying out some of the KS starter options. Started out as an imperial BH yesterday. Ran delivery missions for a couple of hours. easily have enough credits to buy and kit out a Cobra now and I have not even been in a fight yet! This progress is much too fast.

I knew there would be a melt down on here about the new AI when I thought back to all the posts about people making millions in shield-less type 9s.

As for me I am going to stick with my imperial eagle for a while and enjoy the new mission system and combat (when the AI finally decides to shoot at me)

 

[Sunleader]

You sound very smart here but, wait, no, you don't actually.

Just so you know.
This is how Far I read your Post.

Pls do me a Favor and at least attempt to Answer halfwat Politely.
If you start off by Offending others. You better not expect anyone to actually bother Reading what you have to say.

I did say it was the first month I played, and it wasn't a full 3km true, more like 2.7 km as he sniped me from behind as I exited the mail slot. Lost 3 Asps in 10 minutes this way, till I finally learned my lesson and bought a Cobra before leaving again. Back then I tended to flee in straight lines so I was an easy target. The AI is pretty good at lining up these easy steady shots. Especially on ships with BIG hitboxes like the Asp or the Clipper.

Not sure if you played Beta, but engi mods allow increased range to almost 5 km. Which is very likely why you were being nailed from range.

Gaining distance works well if you have the defenses/shields to pull it off. However if you are heading away from an Enemy that is nearly facing you, and your shields are already down, then you are easy meat for for the next 10-15 seconds until you get out of range, as I am sure you know by now. You may have only heard the rail sound, but the Anaconda has a pretty tight firing pattern convergence. The odds are high that you were hit with a few full force volleys before your FSD was shot out. Anacondas can lay down devastating damage if they point at you your back from within their effective range. Even fast small ships with a small profile, like the Cobra, can get nailed by them from unusually high distances because of their hardpoint convergence.

As for NPC aiming accuracy, I have been experiencing the exact opposite. They can't seem to hit at all with PAs and their rails only hit 20% of the time from ANY range even when I am in their firing arc. Since 2.1.02 dropped, their aiming has gotten even worse. The D3 shields on my DBS (small ship with a BIG hitbox) last for 2 minutes against a Master NPC while doing nothing but standing stock still with 4 pips to SYS. They still miss!!! It's flipping sad I tell you.

Anyway, I'm sorry about your loss. Sounds like you almost made it too.

1.
The Mods Increase Max Range. But they dont give you the Ability to Accurately Aim at Someone on this Range.
Problem is not Weapons shooting this Far at all. But that the AI can actually Home In 9 of 10 Shots at this Range.
I can Accurately Shoot at Enemies on up to 2km archieving maybe 7 of 10 Hits.
Now I am not the Best guy there is for that. But Generally from what I meet in Open. I dont Remember a Single Time were People had more than 50% Hitrate on 3km
An NPC Archieving almost 100% on 4km is just Wrong. And its got nothing to Do with Skills. Its Simply an Stats Buff.

2.
AI is Always Stats Mate.
See the Problem here is. That AI actually managing something like a Human is very Hard.
If that was Possible you would long Since have Combat Jets which are Flying and Fighting on Autopilot.

Now why do you think AI can Utilize their Stuff to 100% how no Player can ever Possibly Manage ?
The Reason is because the AI Ignores some Stuff here.

You see. A Player has 2 Disadvantages towards AI.

1.
The Player has to Deal with the Consequences of his Controls and Adjust Based on that.
The AI However Ignores this. It knows exactly what happens before it happens and thus has Adjusted everything before Controlling. (Or in Case of Optimised Games which dont want to Draw too much Processing Power. The AI will simply not have any Mass Force etc applying to it and simply Simulate the wanted Movement from the Start. That by the way is also whats done Here.)

Thats why an Player will NEVER reach anything close 100% Accuracy against an Target that Performs Evasive Maneuvers.
But an AI can do this.
It does not need to wait for you to actually Move and then Adjust towards it.
The moment you press the Button it knows you will Move and also exactly where your heading. It then Adjusts for this thus Archieving an almost 100% Accuracy.


2.
The Player has to actually Input Controls and Apply Control of how much he Inputs.
The AI can always just set the Input Parameter without needing to Physically Move anything. As such it can manage much much better and much much faster than any Player actually can.
Now there is 3 Possible Scenarios for this.

A.
The most Expensive one as it requires massive Processing Capacity. Means that AI is given a Time lag in Controls thus more or less Simulating the Disadvantage of an actual Person which needs to actually Push a Button for it. This Forces the AI to work like a Human here as it has to actually invest time to do an Control which of course will happen after the situation has already changed a bit. Meaning the AI will just like a Human always Lag behind by about 1 Second.
Further Advanced the AI will then of course be Programmed to Anticipate certain Patterns and be set to try and stay in front of Movements.
But this again is extremely capacity eating for Processors. And in many Games it simply Fails because the AI becomes unable to Hit anything Human as the Human starts Turning a bit randomly thus Setting off the AI.
Programming an AI like this is very very challenging.

B.
The AI is simply set to lower Parameters. its basicly making mistakes on Purpose so its Perfect Ability and Zero Time lag of Responses does not Stick out so much.
This by the way is also the Method we had here before.

C.
The Method we got Currently.
The AI is simply not Limited here.
It then Starts Performing at levels where Humans cannot Touch it anymore. It will Outpilot Any Human Pilot because even the best Pilot in the World. Cannot Control the Craft with his Mind and Zero Lag.
And thats called Stats Increase. Its not actually Increasing the AIs Decision Making or Skills.
its merely introducing an Not Human Factor which allows the AI to Perform Superior to any Human.


No Offense Mate. But the reason why Humans are still Required to do things. Is because AI up to this very Day. Is not Capable of Piloting without Cheating.
You might not Notice that because you dont know that much about Artificial Intelligence and Automatics.
But if you really Think. That the AI is Currently Strong because its Skills and Decision Making have been Improved. Than you have been Fooled properly there Mate



3.
The Key is Evasive Maneuvers.
Unlike AI. A player will not See your Support Thrusters on 2km Range.
If you move Up or Down. Left or Right without actually Pointing the Nose of your Ship. Human Pilots have no Way to Know this before they actually see the Target Lead Marker Change the Heading.
And if you Randomize this Movement Human Players will not score Bigger Hits on you using Fixed Weapons. Even less will they be able to Pinpoint an Module of Yours.
Moreover since the Enemy has to turn his Nose to Aim after you. He will be Slowed by this.
If you got the Skills for it. Turn Flight Assist Off and get even more Effect out of your Support Thrusters. Be Careful tough as this can fairly Fast Reduce your Speed rather than Serve as Evasive Maneuvers. Because you lose your Bearing.


4.
Well. Your Experience is Really Very Different From mine then.
Albeit I have not yet gotten to Testing the last Mini Patch. (I was roughly 1600 Light Years out of the Bubble when it came around. Doing some Survey Runs and making Sure my Name is Recorded somewhere lol)
Before that. I had cases where my Shield Lasted not even 10 Seconds. Which is Fairly Sick given I am using a Class 7 BI Weave Shield with 2 Grade A Shield Boosters.

 

[Ziljan]

The Key is Evasive Maneuvers.
Unlike AI. A player will not See your Support Thrusters on 2km Range.
If you move Up or Down. Left or Right without actually Pointing the Nose of your Ship. Human Pilots have no Way to Know this before they actually see the Target Lead Marker Change the Heading.
And if you Randomize this Movement Human Players will not score Bigger Hits on you using Fixed Weapons. Even less will they be able to Pinpoint an Module of Yours.
Moreover since the Enemy has to turn his Nose to Aim after you. He will be Slowed by this.
If you got the Skills for it. Turn Flight Assist Off and get even more Effect out of your Support Thrusters. Be Careful tough as this can fairly Fast Reduce your Speed rather than Serve as Evasive Maneuvers. Because you lose your Bearing.

Don't worry I am not so easily offended these days haha.

This technique you describe above does work against AI. But it is VERY ship and build dependent. You NEED a ship with a small hit box that is fairly agile. Currently there are no "perfect ships" that fit this description. They all either have a small hit box and turn like an FDL, or they have a big hit box and fly like Sidey on speed. I can pull this off in my Viper the best so far. Both of the Eagles are also very capable at it. The Sidey would be good, but the lateral thrust acceleration is nothing special, even after the enhanced engine is added.

The thing about big ships like the Clipper is that (not only are they large, with huge hitboxes) they can't really shift their momentum, so using side thrusters to evade fixed weapons isn't trivially easy like it is on some small ships. That is one of the curses of some big ships. This is not to say that it's impossible to evade fixed weapons with a Clipper. I have seen players do just exactly this as you describe above. I certainly cannot do it! And that's one of the many reasons I hate flying Clippers But give me a small ship, and fixed weapons might as well be feather dusters, and my little 3D shields might as well be 7A Prismatics.

 

[ilo]

are we having a debate on if Elite needs NPC? because this it what it looks like..

 

[Sunleader]

Don't worry I am not so easily offended these days haha.

This technique you describe above does work against AI. But it is VERY ship and build dependent. You NEED a ship with a small hit box that is fairly agile. Currently there are no "perfect ships" that fit this description. They all either have a small hit box and turn like an FDL, or they have a big hit box and fly like Sidey on speed. I can pull this off in my Viper the best so far. Both of the Eagles are also very capable at it. The Sidey would be good, but the lateral thrust acceleration is nothing special, even after the enhanced engine is added.

The thing about big ships like the Clipper is that (not only are they large, with huge hitboxes) they can't really shift their momentum, so using side thrusters to evade fixed weapons isn't trivially easy like it is on some small ships. That is one of the curses of some big ships. This is not to say that it's impossible to evade fixed weapons with a Clipper. I have seen players do just exactly this as you describe above. I certainly cannot do it! And that's one of the many reasons I hate flying Clippers But I give me a small ship, and fixed weapons might as well be feather dusters, and my little 3D shields might as well be 7A Prismatics.

Right now it Works again.
(and being Honest. The Last Mini Patch seems to have Overnerfed AI again. Now its way too easy again. I wonder what they did in that Mini Patch that the AI is Suddenly so Bad again. Its seriously not Hitting anything at all and even a Viper did not Manage to Outmaneuver me. Heck Yesterday a         Federal Gunship was Outmaneuvering me. Today not even an Vulture Manages it.... I wonder why they always have to change things so extremely from one side to the other....)

Yesterday it did not Work at all.
The AI Just kept Scoring on me from 4.3km away when I was Withdrawing.


Also. The Maneuver Works Fairly Well in a Imperial Clipper when going against CMDRs.
And now it also works against AI Again. Albeit it works too well now. They stop Hitting at about 2km now....




And well. You would be Surprised just how Crazy Agile the Clipper can be.
The Trick is use your Roll Thrusters. For example.
Press Downward Thrusters and Roll Left. Then Switch to Upward Thrusters and Roll Right. Its causing an very Bad Shift in the Aiming Lead which is hard to make Sense off for a Human.
Thanks to that it Throws off the Aim of most People fairly Easily.
Also thanks to the Roll Speed being much much Stronger than Down and Upward. It gives you Ship a very good Buff for Hauling its Mass towards an Direction.

Rolling is something way too Few People are making use off anyways. And that when its the absolutely Fastest Support Thruster People got which actually moves the Hitbox of the Ship.

 

[ilo]

Right now it Works again.
(and being Honest. The Last Mini Patch seems to have Overnerfed AI again. Now its way too easy again. I wonder what they did in that Mini Patch that the AI is Suddenly so Bad again. Its seriously not Hitting anything at all and even a Viper did not Manage to Outmaneuver me. Heck Yesterday a         Federal Gunship was Outmaneuvering me. Today not even an Vulture Manages it.... I wonder why they always have to change things so extremely from one side to the other....)

Yesterday it did not Work at all.
The AI Just kept Scoring on me from 4.3km away when I was Withdrawing.


Also. The Maneuver Works Fairly Well in a Imperial Clipper when going against CMDRs.
And now it also works against AI Again. Albeit it works too well now. They stop Hitting at about 2km now....




And well. You would be Surprised just how Crazy Agile the Clipper can be.
The Trick is use your Roll Thrusters. For example.
Press Downward Thrusters and Roll Left. Then Switch to Upward Thrusters and Roll Right. Its causing an very Bad Shift in the Aiming Lead which is hard to make Sense off for a Human.
Thanks to that it Throws off the Aim of most People fairly Easily.
Also thanks to the Roll Speed being much much Stronger than Down and Upward. It gives you Ship a very good Buff for Hauling its Mass towards an Direction.

Rolling is something way too Few People are making use off anyways. And that when its the absolutely Fastest Support Thruster People got which actually moves the Hitbox of the Ship.

you think AI is easy??
people disagrees: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=260750

 

[Sunleader]

you think AI is easy??
people disagrees: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showthread.php?t=260750

A Day before it was way waaaay worse.
Compared to that Today is Easy like Hell.


As I said above.
Yesterday you could Fly a Cobra and would be Outturned by an Anaconda so Badly that it was Basicly Glued to your Rear and having you unable seeing it even Once unless you Reverse Boosted.
Needless to say Yesterday AI would use Railguns and Plasma Accs to Accurately Snipe you from 4km away regardless of Positions or Speed.


Today even my Clipper can get several Seconds of Gimballed Firing Arc on a Vulture. And NPCs Miss roughly 50% of their Shots on 1km.
So Yes. Compared to Yesterday thats a Joke.

 

[Ziljan]

A Day before it was way waaaay worse.
Compared to that Today is Easy like Hell.


As I said above.
Yesterday you could Fly a Cobra and would be Outturned by an Anaconda so Badly that it was Basicly Glued to your Rear and having you unable seeing it even Once unless you Reverse Boosted.
Needless to say Yesterday AI would use Railguns and Plasma Accs to Accurately Snipe you from 4km away regardless of Positions or Speed.


Today even my Clipper can get several Seconds of Gimballed Firing Arc on a Vulture. And NPCs Miss roughly 50% of their Shots on 1km.
So Yes. Compared to Yesterday thats a Joke.

This has been my experience as well. The AI is occassionsly horrible. It's not every fight, so I am wondering if there are 2 different AI codes in effect.

 

[Bill Clement]

As almost everybody that has a brain knows, the problem is not the AI, its the OP modules those NPC are using.
Frontier admits that its the problem and state they will fix it removing those modules, unfortunally they are lacking competence to to it since they already tried 2 times and failed on this. ( how come ? )
The only thing you can do is to play with more agile and cheaper ships or dont play it until they fix it.
Now, is the AI good ? I dont know, we will figure out when they remove those OP modules. My guess its very bad.

Mate, I took a T-7 out, played three days solid (I was off work last week, lucky git! ) with the AI on it's max setting and I only died once. That was to a FdL, after a previous interdiction left me with a damaged hull. That's something that could have happened before the patch- the Type has always been pretty weak. Yes it was challenging, but it was hardly game breaking. A lot of complaints I read are from people who've got used to instant win buttons- the Clippers speed, for instance, or the Anacondas incredible shielding and tough hull. That doesn't cut it any more, those players will have to adapt to a newer, more challenging environment.
I didn't switch to a smaller, cheaper ship, though. I upgraded to a FDS, a far more expensive ride. FD have already 'fixed it', by reducing the aggression shown by the AI and by restricting the engineer mods available to NPCs. But peeps are still complaining, trying for more reductions in the AIs abilities.

How about 'no'?

I've waited thirty years for this game and this week has been the best I've ever played it. The AI is finally as tough as I remember from my youth, but with a whole raft of wonderful tweaks and new content added to the beautiful 21st century graphics. Enough adjusting, FD, it's great just the way it is!

It's difficult to play, they stopped only the instant deaths , weird weapons remain, invisible NPCs at 2 km, the drop to close bug in rings way out.

For those who come to kill a ship or two a week must be great challenge, for those who played a few hours every day in the last week, have every right to be angry and frustrated .

2.1 should be the best of Horizons and was ruined by the IA, the game became predictable, put your nose in the street and prepare to fight, fight and then fight and keep fighting





Frontier tested the targoids hahahahahahahah

C'mon mate, the sky is hardly falling. FD promised tougher AI, they delivered. They gave the sneaky bot frackers engineered weapons, which was an utter pain in the harris. They're taking most of those away. Result! We now have hard as nails high ranking AI, decent system response in the shipping lanes of high security systems and a metric ton of advice on threads like this advising how to avoid those hard as nails AIs if you don't want to play with them. This is all good. I don't usually pay much attention to patches, but this one is a cracker.

I'm not 'angry and frustrated', I'm gleeful and exhilarated. 2.1 really has been the best of Horizons, absolutely made by the new, less predictable AI!

 

[Sunleader]

This has been my experience as well. The AI is occassionsly horrible. It's not every fight, so I am wondering if there are 2 different AI codes in effect.

Possible.
I had some Mission NPCs Intercept me on a Delivery a few minutes ago.
And heck for being two Fairly Small Fighters they really Packed a Punch. They also were Glued to my Rear as usual.
Now for Fairness I am currently in Python. So I am not very maneuverable to begin with.
But they were much more like the NPCs from Yesterday.


Wonder if its Rank Dependent. Or maybe Area Dependent.

 

[Mohenjo]

Mate, I took a T-7 out, played three days solid (I was off work last week, lucky git! ) with the AI on it's max setting and I only died once. That was to a FdL, after a previous interdiction left me with a damaged hull. That's something that could have happened before the patch- the Type has always been pretty weak. Yes it was challenging, but it was hardly game breaking. A lot of complaints I read are from people who've got used to instant win buttons- the Clippers speed, for instance, or the Anacondas incredible shielding and tough hull. That doesn't cut it any more, those players will have to adapt to a newer, more challenging environment.
I didn't switch to a smaller, cheaper ship, though. I upgraded to a FDS, a far more expensive ride. FD have already 'fixed it', by reducing the aggression shown by the AI and by restricting the engineer mods available to NPCs. But peeps are still complaining, trying for more reductions in the AIs abilities.

How about 'no'?

I've waited thirty years for this game and this week has been the best I've ever played it. The AI is finally as tough as I remember from my youth, but with a whole raft of wonderful tweaks and new content added to the beautiful 21st century graphics. Enough adjusting, FD, it's great just the way it is!



C'mon mate, the sky is hardly falling. FD promised tougher AI, they delivered. They gave the sneaky bot frackers engineered weapons, which was an utter pain in the harris. They're taking most of those away. Result! We now have hard as nails high ranking AI, decent system response in the shipping lanes of high security systems and a metric ton of advice on threads like this advising how to avoid those hard as nails AIs if you don't want to play with them. This is all good. I don't usually pay much attention to patches, but this one is a cracker.

I'm not 'angry and frustrated', I'm gleeful and exhilarated. 2.1 really has been the best of Horizons, absolutely made by the new, less predictable AI!

I've also waited 30 years for this ghame, and now I can't play it. I have no choice in the matter, it's not possible for me to play it, the AI prevents me. It's not that I don't WANT to, I CANNOT.

This is a fundamental difference that seems to be getting overlooked, even though I've said it before now, more than once.

The old AI was challenging to me. Sure, there were some foes I could walk over, even in my T6. There were many more I could not. If I was interdicted by an Eagle, I knew I'd have to run for it, because I'd never be able to get a bearing on him to fire. A Cobra? If I was careful and patient, I could handle one. An Asp? As long as I avoided his opening salvo, I knew I could outmaneuver him. Now, ALL ships are more manueverable than mine, no matter what I do.

The result is that I can't do ANYTHING.

If I try trading, I get attacked over and over by AI ships I can't defeat.
If I try mining, I get destroyed by AI ships I can't defeat.
If I try exploring, I get destroyed by AI ships flying around the planets while I try to land, or destroyed as I try to return to base.
If I try fighting, I get destroyed by AI ships that are VASTLY stronger and more manueverable than me, no matter what I fly.

It's often difficult just leaving a station. I've even been attacked while sitting on a landing pad (the station and police took care of that).

I cannot DO ANYTHING. There is now NO GAME AT ALL for me, and for many others.

With the old AI, I could play the game AND you could still play, even if you weren't being challenged. There were ways you COULD have created challenges for yourself (flying a suboptimal ship, engaging GROUPS of foes in a Conflict Zone instead of one at a time, not relying on armadas of police to tank for you, etc.). You might not have enjoyed it as much, but you COULD still play. Nothing was stopping you.
With the new AI, I cannot play at all because the AI stops me from doing ANYTHING I try to do. There are NO WAYS I can change that. I have no option to make it easier. I have NO CHOICE, either I stop playing or the AI stops me playing.

Does it mean the sky is falling?

I think it does. At the very least, the legs are being kicked out from under it. Players are leaving the game in droves, not because they don't WANT to play, but because they CANNOT. That's lost revenue, that's lost reputation, and THAT means lost revenue too.

If this doesn't change, and FAST, they could do irreparable harm to the game, and the sky might very well fall.

 

[Sunleader]

Ok.
So it seems with last Patch the Sick NPCs got less Frequent.
But they are still around and not in the Slightest bit Nerfed.


Just had an Gunship which basicly Flew like it was an Satellite.
That thing Sticked onto my Rear Like it was a Ball stuck to an Bar on my Rear while Unloading its Guns.
I.ve also watched an Security Anaconda which stick onto another NPC in Sidestrafing.
That looked pretty Disturbing. I am glad I am not someone with a Bounty. That other Guy was going Full Speed Forward. And the Anaconda was just Sticking to his Left Side like it was a Goddamn Planet Circling his Sun lol.



So nope. AI is clearly still completely Cheating.
There is no way any Human would ever Manage to Maintain such Positions like that. Its just not Possible for a Human because he has to wait for how the enemy Moves. (Needless to say that the Maneuver itself is already Fairly Impossible for a Human because he has no way to actually use such a perfect Control on his Thrusters that he could even pull such an Alignment Off.