AI, NPC's and Experienced Players

[biohazard15]

After one update (2.2?) the AI were monstrous. If I went into a fight with an Elite there was no guarantee I'd make it back out again.
That era was dubbed by some as the Git Guddening™ - and it was brilliant.
Lots of players complained though, and it was dialed down.
I support your suggestion, Elite NPCs should be elite opponents.

That was 2.1.

And no, there was nothing "monstrous" about them - except retreating skills and maybe (just maybe!) NPC skills with fixed weapons (rail Asps and rail Eagles, anyone?).

NPCs are here to bring fun via dying, not to cause frustration. Which was exactly what they did before fix. Retreat beyond your effective firing range (thus making fights longer, but NOT harder), and\or pepper you with cheat rails. Thankfully, both of these were fixed (read: nerfed to oblivion), and NPCs became fun to kill again.

To anyone who wish to bring these NPCs back: kindly go back to your cave and play your beloved Dark Souls, Sekiro or whatever, and leave this game alone. Thanks.

 

[GroG79]

Try fighting pirates if you are looking for the next lvl.

Visit the unauthorised Installation in Isinor for instance or other systems under pirate attack. They will make you have fun (and run)

 

[RamirezKurita]

Pesronally I'd like the highly engineered ships to come after me for defecting from a PP faction, or being in the top 5 wanted at a station for either murder or powerplay murder.

Ultimately, there's space for both large numbers of enemies and special ships, depending on the circumstance. The feeling I was going for was that high-ranked NPCs (Deadly and Elite) should be effectively "boss monsters" that only occur on a fairly rare basis. They could occur in some of the higher intensity CZs on occasion, be drafted in to hunt down ships with unusually high bounties and/or notorieties, or as you suggested be brought in to oppose powerplay traitors.

The crucial thing with these rare high-ranked opponents is their visibility. Many players wouldn't be equipped to deal with them and so would need sufficient warning of their presence; what we don't want is for a relative newbie to be entering a HICZ for the first proper time, hold their own fine for several minutes in their middling ship, then get suddenly obliterated by an opposing ace without warning. Sufficient warning that enemy ace(s) are entering the field is required to allow a player to make an informed decision about whether to stay and engage or whether to bug out immediately.

I'd also like to see such aces be persistent in their loadouts, with each system, faction, power and superpower all having their own limited selection of aces to call upon. Dedicated players could then learn the loadouts and weaknesses of their regular opponents and be able to make more informed decisions on whether to engage or retreat when they appear.

Mission NPC's I'm assuming like assasination targets which I agree with you, it's a good idea. Wing assasination missions definately need more NPCs in the assasination wing, I can do them all solo in the Corvette, but more with phasing sequence would be OP.

As for trade, I don't do that so can't really comment.

Assassination targets are an obvious one, but I was also suggesting that this would work similarly for data delivery missions and some source+return missions if the commodities in question are relatively easy to obtain. An Elite ranked data delivery mission should be out of reach for the majority of loadouts and require the cream of the crop of pilots to complete, just like any other high-ranked mission. Players who don't want a challenge or who aren't fully prepared could then simply choose lower ranked missions and skip over the harder ones.

 

[Evil Flanker]

Try fighting pirates if you are looking for the next lvl.

Visit the unauthorised Installation in Isinor for instance or other systems under pirate attack. They will make you have fun (and run)

It's not about that sort of NPC interaction, it about in general and combat orientated NPC locations.

 

[CMDR-ss47ply]

I would like to see npcs that are ranged from the amount of engineering you have done to your ship and weapons.I Myself do not like the combat in elite but I do like everything else about the game. in my play style the more a npc is engineered the less I wish to play as I have never done and refuse to do any engineering to any of my ships I upgrade to A and go out and try to enjoy the game. But I would not oppose a Individual difficulty slider for those who need more of a challenge. I'm just a truck driver bringing the beer and meds o7 fly safe

 

[Evil Flanker]

I would like to see npcs that are ranged from the amount of engineering you have done to your ship and weapons.I Myself do not like the combat in elite but I do like everything else about the game. in my play style the more a npc is engineered the less I wish to play as I have never done and refuse to do any engineering to any of my ships I upgrade to A and go out and try to enjoy the game. But I would not oppose a Individual difficulty slider for those who need more of a challenge. I'm just a truck driver bringing the beer and meds o7 fly safe

Thanks appreciate the comment, there could never be a slider a player could adjust it would mess up the payouts and mission system, it could be done by better balancing however, instead of the random soup it is at the moment.

 

[Old Duck]

Well you could take the A out of the AI if you're looking for a real challenge (PvP).

 

[Morbad]

The crucial thing with these rare high-ranked opponents is their visibility. Many players wouldn't be equipped to deal with them and so would need sufficient warning of their presence; what we don't want is for a relative newbie to be entering a HICZ for the first proper time, hold their own fine for several minutes in their middling ship, then get suddenly obliterated by an opposing ace without warning. Sufficient warning that enemy ace(s) are entering the field is required to allow a player to make an informed decision about whether to stay and engage or whether to bug out immediately.

Lower rank CMDR in a venue like a CZ probably wouldn't even be priority targets, so they'd get their chance to see what Spec Ops or Captains could do before being engaged themselves. The game already announces the arrival of these types anyway.

However, when it comes to higher rank CMDRs, there is too much forewarning in many circumstances. Any CMDR with any sense knows that to reliably bring down another of similar ability, who doesn't want to be shot down, you need catch them off guard. The NPCs should know this too, especially when dealing with higher rank CMDRs. I like the idea of being ambushed, preferably when my CMDR least expects it. This is the only way most NPCs, even significantly upgraded ones, would have a real chance at downing a veteran CMDR.

Most CMDRs of high combat or naval ranks have done some exceptionally shady things (pretty sure my CMDR smuggled hundreds of tons of contraband and murdered at least a half dozen superiors to bootstrap his meteoric rise through the Federal Navy...not to mention all those slaves he's smuggled, civilians he's massacred, and cartels he's offended) and should rightly expect retaliation around every corner. I want it to feel like my CMDR is being garrotted in the shower by a gang of Mossad agents, not like some idiot robot is trumpeting it's arrival and wasting time asking for a duel when I've already got it's shields halfway down. NPC assassins should be shadowing my CMDR 24/7, only allowing brief glimpses of themselves to be seen, while waiting for him to swap to a non-combat ship and find himself deep within some static masslock fighting off fodder or licking rocks...before zooming in with a wing of stealth ships and trying to blow him out of the sky.

That NPC trouble only finds my CMDR on his terms is a huge hit to verisimilitude and difficulty.

 

[Evil Flanker]

Well you could take the A out of the AI if you're looking for a real challenge (PvP).

You have no idea - I earn rebuy from combat, please keep on topic.

 

[Evil Flanker]

I want it to feel like my CMDR is being garrotted in the shower by a gang of Mossad agents, not like some idiot robot is trumpeting it's arrival and wasting time asking for a duel when I've already got it's shields halfway down. NPC assassins should be shadowing my CMDR 24/7, only allowing brief glimpses of themselves to be seen, while waiting for him to swap to a non-combat ship and find himself deep within some static masslock fighting off fodder or licking rocks...before zooming in with a wing of stealth ships and trying to blow him out of the sky.

That NPC trouble only finds my CMDR on his terms is a huge hit to verisimilitude and difficulty.

I like this so much, I feel your need comrade, it almost made me cry

 

[RamirezKurita]

Lower rank CMDR in a venue like a CZ probably wouldn't even be priority targets, so they'd get their chance to see what Spec Ops or Captains could do before being engaged themselves. The game already announces the arrival of these types anyway.

However, when it comes to higher rank CMDRs, there is too much forewarning in many circumstances. Any CMDR with any sense knows that to reliably bring down another of similar ability, who doesn't want to be shot down, you need catch them off guard. The NPCs should know this too, especially when dealing with higher rank CMDRs. I like the idea of being ambushed, preferably when my CMDR least expects it. This is the only way most NPCs, even significantly upgraded ones, would have a real chance at downing a veteran CMDR.

Most CMDRs of high combat or naval ranks have done some exceptionally shady things (pretty sure my CMDR smuggled hundreds of tons of contraband and murdered at least a half dozen superiors to bootstrap his meteoric rise through the Federal Navy...not to mention all those slaves he's smuggled, civilians he's massacred, and cartels he's offended) and should rightly expect retaliation around every corner. I want it to feel like my CMDR is being garrotted in the shower by a gang of Mossad agents, not like some idiot robot is trumpeting it's arrival and wasting time asking for a duel when I've already got it's shields halfway down. NPC assassins should be shadowing my CMDR 24/7, only allowing brief glimpses of themselves to be seen, while waiting for him to swap to a non-combat ship and find himself deep within some static masslock fighting off fodder or licking rocks...before zooming in with a wing of stealth ships and trying to blow him out of the sky.

That NPC trouble only finds my CMDR on his terms is a huge hit to verisimilitude and difficulty.

From personal experiences, players are practically automatically the highest priority target for NPCs. Being a low rank won't save a human player unless they decide to change that, as any Spec Ops will immediately target the player.

I disagree that players should be threatened largely by ambushes, being jumped on and killed in seconds with no visible way to avoid it isn't generally fun for anyone. It's the same reason why people frown upon wings of PvP FDLs that are built to obliterate an target in a few seconds with Reverb Cascade torps. The challenge should come from Elite NPCs being smart and having equal (or better) ships to us, not from them appearing out of SC on top of us and bursting us down.

In terms of general long-term enemies, I don't feel like this should be automatic but I quite agree that things need a greater degree of permanence. Simply being high-rank shouldn't automatically bring half the galaxy onto you, but if you got there at the expense of others. There's also the point that you have likely made friends alongside enemies, so for every NPC working behind the scenes to hunt you down, there's an NPC guardian angel who has your back. It should only be super relevant if you are wandering around in rival or hostile terrorities.

 

[Morbad]

From personal experiences, players are practically automatically the highest priority target for NPCs. Being a low rank won't save a human player unless they decide to change that, as any Spec Ops will immediately target the player.

This hasn't been my experience.

I disagree that players should be threatened largely by ambushes, being jumped on and killed in seconds with no visible way to avoid it isn't generally fun for anyone. It's the same reason why people frown upon wings of PvP FDLs that are built to obliterate an target in a few seconds with Reverb Cascade torps. The challenge should come from Elite NPCs being smart and having equal (or better) ships to us, not from them appearing out of SC on top of us and bursting us down.

For real threats to come any other way than ambushes, some fundamental mechanisms of the game would need to be radically altered. The game is stacked heavily toward defense and escape is almost always only a high-wake away.

Veteran CMDRs generally can't shoot down other veteran CMDRs, without one or both sides being willing to stand their ground until ship destruction. What hope do NPCs have in a straight up fight?

for every NPC working behind the scenes to hunt you down, there's an NPC guardian angel who has your back.

I wouldn't be opposed to something like this.

 

[Misty_Dark]

I do get the idea to scale AI but how the combat rank works, you can basically be Elite Combat and still be a "novice" when it comes to combat tactics and manoeuvrers. Because you can engineer you ship to be so much better than then AI, and thus allow you to rank up to Elite in "easy" mode, all it takes is time....


If I was lazy, I went with my PvE killing machine that could stay "forever" in any pirate hunt situations, all laser weapons, so no ammo cost. it was purpose built for that... and thus was a great build for this... But if I wanted more action, more challenge, I used my medium ships, the Krait Mk II had launched, so I used that one alot. once I got the engineering going on that one, it was once again easy mode...but I had to be more careful.... but not doing stupid things, I was never in any danger of dying...
I have my over engineered Vulture, it is a pure menace against NPC's... it is fast agile and you can have lots of fun in it, but it is still easy mode, due to engineering...

So NPC's and their AI sucks... I agree on that. and engineering allows us to get to have this easy mode in most ships.

Sadly all the ranks means almost nothing... and what is worse, is that people who are very combat proficient could still have a very low combat rank, despite them being Elite+++++++
So having low combat rank could be very useful for all the traders for example, as they would only get the "stupid" Pirates....



If we had some meaningful ranks, that actually would influence the game, like it sort of did before, like had to be dangerous combat rank to be allowed to take this deadly combat mission, that pays well and thus is harder.

And the same goes for trade rank, as you progress, you have to be more alert of where a mission takes you, as leaving high security systems will start give you pirates, so that with better income comes greater risks, and you have the option to choose low risk mission that pays less or high risk mission that have a nice hazard bonus etc. As mining is bundled in here, mining for painite, low temperature diamonds, etc is a high risk operation, where you will encounter pirates at all sorts of random times, that you have to "bribe" with cargo, fight or flee from.



Now we can start to combine these ranks to scale the opposition, and since we are talking about NPC's, the same NPC can be alot harder for me fight than it is for the novice player,
As ither the NPC uses all their fancy flying skills to avoid me, but more or less ignores the novice player, and thus do almost no harm, but on me elite combat in an engineered ship, he hits me like a truck if I do stupid things... And the novice when he shoots on this NPC the ship is like an un-engineered ship, so he does alot more damage with his ship. but he still have a hard time hitting the NPC, due to the fancy flying...



But if FDev would bring out such a system, there would be an outcry from many players, as time to kill, etc increases, just look at the conflict zones, when NPC's actually got ships built like for war!
So there is no easy fix to this, We also know they have this beefed yup AI pilots, the ATR, these are challenging to fight, but they take time to get to, and you have to play the bad guy to get these to arrive, so a wasted opportunity... I would have hoped that ATR should be "regular" system forces in high security systems, making it really dangerous to be a criminal in high security systems, now imagine accepting smuggling mission of 200T of something to a high security system that pays 100 million... and the first mission update you get is, ATR have been alerted about "insert your ship" is going to try to smuggle into their system, so they will be checking every such ship... and if you successfully do this 3 times, the game can now scale this up to level 2... and so on...and if they catches you a few times in a row, we can scale it down... so we have a sliding scale that adjusts to skill level.


And this can be done for alot other of these things... we can use ranks to controll what missions you are allowed to accept, to give incentive to rank up, and of course the mission that you unlock must be rewarding. but then we have this invisible difficulty adjustment to adapt the NPC's skills to your level... and if they are mission NPC's tehy are limited to mission rank. so Novice pirate hunting pirate lord, will not give you a Elite Pirate in a Corvette... for example... but perhaps a something in Cobra.




TL DR
Things you do in Elite should be tracked and if you are successful it will then start to increase the difficultly until you start failing, and then lowers it, and simply keep adjusting this based on how you perform, with no regard your combat/trade/exploration ranks, instead use the ranks to offer more challenging missions.

 

[Faded Glory]

NPC 'challenge' is a difficult thing to judge, but for sure FD have metrics on how well players cope with NPC combat, and I suspect that where it is currently isn't a random decision, but one based upon numbers and how the majority of players are faring.

It's also true that there has to be a balance between difficulty and fun. There was a time when it was nigh on impossible to evade an NPC interdiction. The forums quickly came up with how to escape from unwanted NPC combat, and it was pretty much guaranteed that even though you couldn't evade the actual interdiction, it was perfectly possible, easy even, to avoid said combat. FD realized (correctly IMO) that it would be more fun for players to just evade the interdiction than the to have to continuously avoid the combat. Running away from content should probably not be a majority of the gameplay.

I do agree however that a little less predictability would be a huge improvement. The fact that an elite delivery mission incoming enemy will always be four high ranking Anacondas, one immediately following the other, is poor gameplay design. Whoever thought that doing the same thing four times was good gameplay or four times the difficulty of doing something once is mistaken. Same with pirate assassination missions, always exactly the same scenario (dependent on rank of course). These could, and should be mixed up a bit, perhaps one big ship followed by a wing of smaller less powerful ships. Would make for much more engaging gameplay.

 

[Evil Flanker]

Things you do in Elite should be tracked and if you are successful it will then start to increase the difficultly until you start failing, and then lowers it, and simply keep adjusting this based on how you perform, with no regard your combat/trade/exploration ranks, instead use the ranks to offer more challenging missions.

Thats actually a really good idea.

 

[CMDR X]

I'm just sick of entering a CNB only to have the same exact ships spawning all time.
BOOOOORING.
Where is the RNG when you really need it?

X.