AI, NPC's and Experienced Players

[Evil Flanker]

Based on CZ's, RES and NPC Interdictions of players

For players who have Elite rank in combat, I would like harder AI. In my Combat Corvette or Anaconda NPC's pose no challenge, the same can be said when I'm in my combat Asp.

- What I don't want: To make things harder using custom engineered loadouts (For non horizons players or unengineered commanders), superhuman AI or affect the payments balance.

- What I would like to see is: Larger numbers in the AI wings - also

- In the case of RES and NPC interdictions well thought out combinations of NPC wings.

- Larger wings (3 is not enough and too easy I think 9 might scare me) in Haz Res and scaled down with High, medium and low. Also for random NPC interdictions.

- Larger numbers in CZs with scaled numbers depending on the type High, Medium, Low, also more large ships in High (RamirezKurita)

Being outnumbered offers more realism than random ships of appropriate rank and size or AI with unreasitic hull and shields in the case of CZ's

EDIT:

I captured a video that illustrates my point a little, If there were at least 3 more ships in the wing (Not anacondas, but smaller more agile, perhaps FDL) it would have been more challenging..

 

[CMDR DragonHorn]

Gotta agree here, but would like to add that improved variety of NPCs would also go a long way. I'm Deadly at Combat and 90% of NPCs that interdict me (when I'm on trading runs or something) are either Elite Condas or Vettes. I can't remember last time I've seen other pirate NPC on me in SC. Few ranks down, 90% of the time attackers were almost exclusively FDLs.

Having wings of attackers is a great idea and I wouldn't protest to a bit of engineering on them even (in reasonable amounts). But what I truly would like to have is for NPC ships scale not only by your rank, but your ship, loadout and if it has engineering or not. That would be a whole lot of pain to implement, but boy, it would improve gameplay significantly.

Other than that, being attacked by, say, overengineered Viper III or Eagle/Cobra/Hauler/Adder? when you're in your toughest combat monster ship would be quite amazing.

 

[Evil Flanker]

Gotta agree here, but would like to add that improved variety of NPCs would also go a long way. I'm Deadly at Combat and 90% of NPCs that interdict me (when I'm on trading runs or something) are either Elite Condas or Vettes. I can't remember last time I've seen other pirate NPC on me in SC. Few ranks down, 90% of the time attackers were almost exclusively FDLs.

Having wings of attackers is a great idea and I wouldn't protest to a bit of engineering on them even (in reasonable amounts). But what I truly would like to have is for NPC ships scale not only by your rank, but your ship, loadout and if it has engineering or not. That would be a whole lot of pain to implement, but boy, it would improve gameplay significantly.

Other than that, being attacked by, say, overengineered Viper III or Eagle/Cobra/Hauler/Adder? when you're in your toughest combat monster ship would be quite amazing.

It would be nice a solo over engineered ship attack, I left engineering out so that it wouldn't interfere with non horizons owners if there are any but, thanks, I never considered that.

 

[Riverside]

I'm happy for any AI challenge to scale up to impossible if the player travels to it (ie it's opt-in content).

Combat with general NPCs is worth BGS points & so should present the same (achievable) challenge for all.

Personally I consider most engineering to be a difficulty slider; if you enjoy the challenge no need to engineer (as much), if you just want to farm with little risk you can do that too.

Or do PvP, and find out how good you are against other players

 

[tafkabb]

I use small ships - DBS (shieldless is a challenge in high intensity conflict zones), Courier, Vulture etc.
People have said to me why should they have to do this to make the game harder - I see it no different to a difficulty slider. Corvette = easy mode. Rail DBS = hard mode.

OP, have you tried soloing a Thargoid? They're challenging

 

[Evil Flanker]

I use small ships - DBS (shieldless is a challenge in high intensity conflict zones), Courier, Vulture etc.
People have said to me why should have to do this to make the game harder - I see it no different to a difficulty slider. Corvette = easy mode. Rail DBS = hard mode.

OP, have you tried soloing a Thargoid? They're challenging

Never been interested in Thargoids and I'm still not (Really not interested in dedicating a ship to the task and/or grinding for thargoid weapons), and honestly I don't see that not using game features like engineering to compensate for the game NPC's being too easy as a solution, I like to fly ALL my ships, as I mentioned in the OP, I can fly with impunity just the same in my Asp X, I can clear CZ's in that Asp X - The point is no matter what ship I am in the NPCs should present a challenge without being superhuman or 'cheating'.

I shouldn't have to use a stock ship in order to get a challenge and feel 'scared' by some NPC situations, thats not a compromise or even a solution, it's a cop out on the part of the developers. Just my opinion of playing for combat, the only reason I bought the game. Some people explore, some trade and I get that, I play for combat.

 

[tafkabb]

After one update (2.2?) the AI were monstrous. If I went into a fight with an Elite there was no guarantee I'd make it back out again.
That era was dubbed by some as the Git Guddening™ - and it was brilliant.
Lots of players complained though, and it was dialed down.
I support your suggestion, Elite NPCs should be elite opponents.

 

[Evil Flanker]

After one update (2.2?) the AI were monstrous. If I went into a fight with an Elite there was no guarantee I'd make it back out again.
That era was dubbed by some as the Git Guddening™ - and it was brilliant.
Lots of players complained though, and it was dialed down.
I support your suggestion, Elite NPCs should be elite opponents.

Yes, I remember when the AI were superhuman and cheating, it was also impossible to interdict high ranked NPC's making undermining impossible, a point about which I reported as a bug, which is exactly what I don't want, most people I speak to about this want numbers not AI that use super engineered weapons or have superhuman pilot abilities.

 

[tafkabb]

The weapons bug was different

 

[ebbrell]

I would expect interdictions to be wings of 2 or 3 ships once you hit elite, and wings of 2 when deadly

 

[RamirezKurita]

I don't agree with things being dependent on the player combat rank. Why would an otherwise identical conflict zone have different ships in it just because I have a higher combat rank? Rather than scaling things based on rank, we already have the mechanics in place to produce a large scale of different potential NPCs.

For example, rather than simply having low and high intensity CZs, they could expand the system to include medium and super-high intensities. The current HI CZ would correspond to the new medium intensity one, the two higher ones would have enemies in greater quantities and in larger ships. Even better than simply a low/medium/high intensity, they could give them a numerical value instead that would allow for both in-between values as well as being scalable upwards even further if necessary. Under a numerical system, 50 could be the current low-intensity, 100 the current high-intensity, while values around 10 might just be a skirmish involving a few eagles and other fighters and values of 500 or above would be continually pushing the instance limits with larger ships that are all organised into wings.

For mission NPCs, they should scale exclusively based on the mission itself. A high-ranked (Elite or Deadly) should be threatening even to a fully equipped ship flown by a competent pilot. Those who are not comfortable with challenges could simply choose lower-ranked missions that would obviously be easier.

Regular trade pirates would be determined by the local system security as well as the value of the cargo you are carrying. Those who want an easier time would simply stick to higher security systems or trade lower value cargo.

In terms of numbers vs quality for NPCs, I do feel that engineered NPCs are becoming far too common. It was one thing when it was just the odd pirate lord or political figure with notable engineering mods, but now the engineers seem to be on the payroll of every single faction in the galaxy rather than the exclusive domain of select individuals. Really, 99.99% of NPCs should be using stock modules or very light engineering mods (G1) that could be done by crack teams in the local factions rather than outsourced to the best specialists in the entire galaxy. On a similar note, I do feel that higher ranked NPCs in high tech systems should sometimes use the human tech broker modules to supplement the normal ones, as well as the powerplay modules should be restricted to applicable superpowers only (so only Imperial fleets should use Imperial PP modules, for example).

That being said, I do feel that there's a place for highly engineered NPCs in the game. There will always be special individuals that a faction is willing to bribe the appropriate people and go via black-market channels to obtain the absolute best performance for them regardless of the cost; these rare and special ships/wings would be the Red Barons and Black Tulips of the time. They should be special enough that the local chat explodes into a furor of activity as a local legend enters the battlefield in their ace custom to tear things apart. For such rare and special individuals, I would even be in favour of them having access to engineering mods beyond what we have such as G6 or G7 mods if that's what's necessary to provide sufficient challenge.

 

[Evil Flanker]

Interesting post..

For example, rather than simply having low and high intensity CZs, they could expand the system to include medium and super-high intensities. The current HI CZ would correspond to the new medium intensity one, the two higher ones would have enemies in greater quantities and in larger ships. Even better than simply a low/medium/high intensity, they could give them a numerical value instead that would allow for both in-between values as well as being scalable upwards even further if necessary. Under a numerical system, 50 could be the current low-intensity, 100 the current high-intensity, while values around 10 might just be a skirmish involving a few eagles and other fighters and values of 500 or above would be continually pushing the instance limits with larger ships that are all organised into wings.

I see what you're saying and you raise some good points, personally, I preferred the numbers from CZ's as they used to be, but I like the difficulty level they are now (Harder to kill), I agree with you, about scaling the numbers in different CZ's completely, as it is at the moment the there are simply not enough, CZ's used to be more exciting (although not perfect), now they're mundane and 'meh' at best.

For mission NPCs, they should scale exclusively based on the mission itself. A high-ranked (Elite or Deadly) should be threatening even to a fully equipped ship flown by a competent pilot. Those who are not comfortable with challenges could simply choose lower-ranked missions that would obviously be easier.

Regular trade pirates would be determined by the local system security as well as the value of the cargo you are carrying. Those who want an easier time would simply stick to higher security systems or trade lower value cargo.

Mission NPC's I'm assuming like assasination targets which I agree with you, it's a good idea. Wing assasination missions definately need more NPCs in the assasination wing, I can do them all solo in the Corvette, but more with phasing sequence would be OP.

As for trade, I don't do that so can't really comment.

That being said, I do feel that there's a place for highly engineered NPCs in the game. There will always be special individuals that a faction is willing to bribe the appropriate people and go via black-market channels to obtain the absolute best performance for them regardless of the cost; these rare and special ships/wings would be the Red Barons and Black Tulips of the time. They should be special enough that the local chat explodes into a furor of activity as a local legend enters the battlefield in their ace custom to tear things apart. For such rare and special individuals, I would even be in favour of them having access to engineering mods beyond what we have such as G6 or G7 mods if that's what's necessary to provide sufficient challenge.

Pesronally I'd like the highly engineered ships to come after me for defecting from a PP faction, or being in the top 5 wanted at a station for either murder or powerplay murder.

Interesting post, thanks...

 

[Old Duck]

My problem is that harder isn't the same as more fun. I've seen AI do some smart things, like launch chaff while deploying their SCB so that I can't break through their shields, and they are constantly doing the fast flip and joist, which indeed makes it harder to stay locked on them, but this all just makes for longer, more repetitive combat that gets boring after awhile. I actually prefer fighting a bunch of weaker AIs (Novice and Competent ships) vs one Elite AI, just because I find the overall gameplay more fun.

 

[Evil Flanker]

My problem is that harder isn't the same as more fun. I've seen AI do some smart things, like launch chaff while deploying their SCB so that I can't break through their shields, and they are constantly doing the fast flip and joist, which indeed makes it harder to stay locked on them, but this all just makes for longer, more repetitive combat that gets boring after awhile. I actually prefer fighting a bunch of weaker AIs (Novice and Competent ships) vs one Elite AI, just because I find the overall gameplay more fun.

To be fair if you are an experienced combat pilot you should never really lose targets on the AI no matter how fast they turn and flip, in my worst turning combat ship the vette, I can turn faster than the AI, in my Asp X it's even easier, I have no problems taking down AI shield with my asp either, SCBs or not and chaff doesn't really phase me as all my small and medium ships use fixed weapons, on my 3 corvettes I use a mix of fixed and gimballed.

As this is based on combat, I don't understand how harder could not be more fun, as stated in my asp I can do anything with impunity against NPC's.

Combat pilots seek the excitement, challenge and the rush you get from combat, challenge and excitement being important factors.

What you do mention that I can relate to is..

I actually prefer fighting a bunch of weaker AIs

Which is my whole point about numbers. Thanks for your point of view.

 

[Evil Flanker]

I would expect interdictions to be wings of 2 or 3 ships once you hit elite, and wings of 2 when deadly

I'm curious, would this be for pirate NPCs are you a trader?

 

[ALEX CAOS]

If its not hard enough for you do terrorist or pirat wing missions allone. You allways have to consider not everybody is in well engenierd ship all times!

 

[Evil Flanker]

That era was dubbed by some as the Git Guddening™ - and it was brilliant.
Lots of players complained though, and it was dialed down.
I support your suggestion, Elite NPCs should be elite opponents.

I personally don't like the 'git gud' thing, I prefer, you need to practice a little or change your loadout, but there no nice way to say it really and people get too defensive, so I just give up trying to help.
Also thank you for your support and keeping it clean.

 

[Stigbob]

I'm doing pirate massacres in a courier ATM, head for any res site that's in shadow and go at them headlights and nightvision off.

Its a right laugh.

 

[Evil Flanker]

If its not hard enough for you do terrorist or pirat wing missions allone. You allways have to consider not everybody is in well engenierd ship all times!

I believe I tried in the OP?

- What I don't want: To make things harder using custom engineered loadouts (For non horizons players) or superhuman AI.

which would include unengineered ships, it's all about FD balancing it, but there is no question for experienced combat pilots the NPC's are too easy.

 

[Morbad]

My biggest complaint about the high-end AI is their behavior, tactics, and apparent skill. They all behave in a very formulaic manner and repeat the same mistakes over and over until they decide to either go down fighting, or go down running (their escape tactics are just as poor).

Other areas are certainly lacking; persistence, loadouts, numbers, etc, but ideally, I'd want to have an NPC in a similar vessel of similar rank to have some shot at besting my CMDR, even by itself.