AI: We Can Have It Both Ways And All Be Happy

[V'larr]

We've gone from numerous threads detailing issues with AI being far too challenging for the majority, to numerous threads from the competitive souls out there claiming it's now been lobotomized (usually based on anecdotal 1-time evidence in RES sites, but I digress).

So, listen:
We can *all* enjoy this game at the same time, regardless of what each of us may want from it.

Nobody needs to, nor should, be excluded - whether they want to be able to just enjoy the combat, or want the combat to be as thrilling and difficult as playing Ultra Nightmare mode in Doom. (I think you're crazy, really, but that is me and my own view and it's perfectly fine if you enjoy yourself that way! So long as it doesn't affect me.)

Frontier is moving back in that direction - that's what this change in 2.1.0.3 is about.

It's safe to assume there will be ways you can reliably find a higher level challenge if that is what you want. Thargoids, "Winter is coming", possible future changes to Powerplay, you name it.

edit: And, I think nobody has anything against harder AI existing in certain locations such as Hazardous Extraction Sites, so long as the "random encounters" (e.g. Pirates or updated-mission attackers) are kept at this new "fair game" level.

In meantime, can we put down the pitchforks and be a whole community?

Additionally in that meantime, let's discuss many ways you *can* make the game harder if you so choose, right now:
- Set your own rules about what happens if you die, see this thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...le-For-those-who-want-some-risk-in-their-game!
- Stick to ships that aren't Anaconda-tier
- Intentially limit yourself to sub-par equipment
- Fly FA-off *all* the time (and if you do already, great!)
- Don't RES farm; instead, go wander into a combat zone
- Stick a cargo rack in and stuff it full of gold, then head to a compromised nav beacon
- Join Powerplay (whether it's flawed or not, it WILL give you more & challenging attackers)
- Exclusively look for & attack NPC wings
- Play as a Criminal

And I'll be happy to add any other bright ideas that may pop up in the thread!

TL/DR:
Use the tools in *your* hands to make Elite more Dangerous for yourself, instead of demanding the Fdev wrecking ball!

 

[h347h]

So basically play a playstyle that might not fit what you want to do because people are flying ill fitted ships and piloting them wrong?

 

[Sugarat]

Use the tools in *your* hands to make Elite more Dangerous for yourself, instead of demanding the Fdev wrecking ball!

Or alternatively use the tools in game to make the game less dangerous for you.. the door swings both ways on this one..

 

[bitstorm]

The door might swing both ways but on one side of the door there's content, the other there isn't.

Like Engineers is on one side of that door, so ideally we'd all go in one direction.

(I haven;t played ED today so not tried AI yet.)

edit: but yeah what you said, tools arrived in game with the AI increase to mitigate the issue.

 

[SGTHACK]

I keep saying this is the beginning of the road to an AI level for both parties. I am a Tradesman in the game. I adapt my ships for what ever the wind blows. Every time there is a patch the world has ended. Give it a couple months then maybe everyone will be some what satisfied with the AI.

 

[Sugarat]

The door might swing both ways but on one side of the door there's content, the other there isn't.

Like Engineers is on one side of that door.

(I haven;t played ED today so not tried AI yet.)

Not talking about engineer mods.. the tools to counter or defend against AI were already in game, once the bugs had been removed.. lobotomising NPCs wasn't necessary imo..

 

[bitstorm]

Not talking about engineer mods.. the tools to counter or defend against AI were already in game, once the bugs had been removed.. lobotomising NPCs wasn't necessary imo..

Ah sorry for some reason thought you were replying to h347h.

It was just a general comment on the door thing though.

 

[Bacalao]

I don't want your meaningless mini-games, I want a legitimate meaningful challenge. It isn't fun to outfit like a moron to have a challenge because there are 13 ships shooting you for your 1 ton of gold, because all 13 ships still fly like idiots, there are just a lot of them. Wings have always done fine as a challenge, the AI in a wing has always attacked well, it's the 1v1 that suffers and now that's basically gone unless I want to set my ship up so that I can't use it's capabilities. Your suggestion is nonsense.

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Not talking about engineer mods.. the tools to counter or defend against AI were already in game, once the bugs had been removed.. lobotomising NPCs wasn't necessary imo..

I don't think it was either, but...well....I don't think there is a "happy medium" in the current state of the game. Interdictions are too random, security levels to variable, mission spawns to predictable...The geography, security effects, BGS...all kinds of stuff needs to change to make it workable for people who want it easy to stay where they can take it easy and for people who want a challenge to go get one.

 

[V'larr]

Or alternatively use the tools in game to make the game less dangerous for you.. the door swings both ways on this one..

Which exactly is what most players complaining about "lobotomized AI" are doing:
- Min/maxed loadouts on combat ships
- Staying exclusively in RES zones, where you can...
- pick and choose your target at your leisure
- choose the timing and location
- get NPC assistance
- killsteal the bounties from said NPC assistance

Have I missed anything?

Most people are doing exactly all the things possible to make the combat as easy as possible...and then they complain about it.
Does that really make any sense? Come on.

 

[Bacalao]

Which exactly is what most players complaining about "lobotomized AI" are doing:
- Min/maxed loadouts on combat ships
- Staying exclusively in RES zones, where you can...
- pick and choose your target at your leisure
- choose the timing and location
- get NPC assistance
- killsteal the bounties from said NPC assistance

Have I missed anything?

Most people are doing exactly all the things possible to make the combat as easy as possible...and then they complain about it.
Does that really make any sense? Come on.

I fly a multirole fit corvette doing missions all over the place, sometimes a viper mk IV...haven't had any issues, just practical outfitting, okay flight skills and sensible defensive techniques.

 

[V'larr]

I don't want your meaningless mini-games, I want a legitimate meaningful challenge. It isn't fun to outfit like a moron to have a challenge because there are 13 ships shooting you for your 1 ton of gold, because all 13 ships still fly like idiots, there are just a lot of them. Wings have always done fine as a challenge, the AI in a wing has always attacked well, it's the 1v1 that suffers and now that's basically gone unless I want to set my ship up so that I can't use it's capabilities. Your suggestion is nonsense.

What I see you saying is you want to be able to min/max your stuff in the biggest baddest ship you can get.

And then you want the game to be harder.

Which is it? You can't have it both ways, dude. What is the point of upgrading your stuff or being in the biggest baddest (and most expensive) ship if it doesn't make the game easy?

Plus you said it yourself - wings become a challenge rather than a "hurry up and run" scenario for you in your big ship. So look for wings to attack! I'll even add that into the OP.

 

[cheesenbiscuits]

Surely we need areas of space that are no go zones for trader and explorers. Only pure combat ready ships need apply.
If i take a mission in these areas i know the risks but the rewards will be significantly higher.
On the other hand if i'm returning from an exploration trip i'm able to avoid such madness.

 

[Limoncello Lizard]

The players wanting Elite NPCs to be a challenge have a point, so do the traders who were being interdicted by Elite Condas every 2nd jump.
Brain dead AI certainly isn't the answer, but neither was the super AI some players were seeing in 2.1.0
I think there will eventually be a happy medium. Players wanting a difficult fight might need to go looking for it in pirate controlled Anarchy systems and the traders may need to avoid those same systems.

 

[V'larr]

I fly a multirole fit corvette doing missions all over the place, sometimes a viper mk IV...haven't had any issues, just practical outfitting, okay flight skills and sensible defensive techniques.

Alright. I've been flying a "multirole" Python and more recently a fully combat-fitted FAS.

Pre-2.1, my Python was good fun with pulses and railguns.

Post-2.1, my Python was as useful as a sidewinder. I had to essentially completely change my weapon selection & rely on SCBs just to survive basic NPC pirate attackers (who attacked me for hardly any reason but that's a different issue). It basically became a glorified Type 9.

Meanwhile the combat-fitted FAS has been a struggle for me, despite being a full combat-fit, to the point that, while hunting for Todd bounties, I've resorted to 3 pulse turrets and a burst - on supposedly one of the most maneuverable and easiest ships to fly, I had to resort to turrets because that's what level the AI was at.

I see both being unable to get away with my railgun Python, and the necessity of turrets on a FAS just to fight to toe with wanted NPC Cobra IIIs, as pretty frustrating and not fun. I had a bit of diversity that I liked, and that was forced away from me.

I don't like combat being limited to turrets + fly in reverse, y'know?

 

[Bacalao]

What I see you saying is you want to be able to min/max your stuff in the biggest baddest ship you can get.

And then you want the game to be harder.

Which is it? You can't have it both ways, dude. What is the point of upgrading your stuff or being in the biggest baddest (and most expensive) ship if it doesn't make the game easy?

Plus you said it yourself - wings become a challenge rather than a "hurry up and run" scenario for you in your big ship. So look for wings to attack! I'll even add that into the OP.

I want to outfit my ship to the fullest capabilities because it flies better, it handles better, it feels better. I want to be able to use high level guns because they require more skill. I want to be able to test myself, you don't do that in a shieldless sidey, you're just a moron for flying one. It hasn't anything to do with min-maxing, it has to do with enjoying everything the game can give me and the game giving me a suitable challenge to test myself against. You think it's a solution to ignore a bunch of it in the interest of a hollow challenge, well no thanks, that's a bad idea.

 

[V'larr]

Surely we need areas of space that are no go zones for trader and explorers. Only pure combat ready ships need apply.
If i take a mission in these areas i know the risks but the rewards will be significantly higher.
On the other hand if i'm returning from an exploration trip i'm able to avoid such madness.

But I'm a trader/explorer who likes being able to defend myself. (I do almost have Master combat rank, now, for instance.)

I don't feel like I should be cut off from entire areas of space, just for daring to be in a trading ship - I ought to, by taking proper protection and weapons, be able to defend myself in those areas of space without needing to sacrifice my sanity to the lords of Dark Souls.

 

[Bacalao]

Alright. I've been flying a "multirole" Python and more recently a fully combat-fitted FAS.

Pre-2.1, my Python was good fun with pulses and railguns.

Post-2.1, my Python was as useful as a sidewinder. I had to essentially completely change my weapon selection & rely on SCBs just to survive basic NPC pirate attackers (who attacked me for hardly any reason but that's a different issue). It basically became a glorified Type 9.

Meanwhile the combat-fitted FAS has been a struggle for me, despite being a full combat-fit, to the point that, while hunting for Todd bounties, I've resorted to 3 pulse turrets and a burst - on supposedly one of the most maneuverable and easiest ships to fly, I had to resort to turrets because that's what level the AI was at.

I see both being unable to get away with my railgun Python, and the necessity of turrets on a FAS just to fight to toe with wanted NPC Cobra IIIs, as pretty frustrating and not fun. I had a bit of diversity that I liked, and that was forced away from me.

I don't like combat being limited to turrets + fly in reverse, y'know?

Then you're obviously fighting a challenge you aren't ready for, so leave it behind, don't remove it for me entirely. I haven't had a problem keeping gimbaled and fixed weapons on elite FDLs, eagles, cobras, FASs, clippers, anacondas or anything else, you just have to use what the game gave you. I couldn't be lax, I couldn't stop paying attention, I had to play, I had to think, I had to engage...now, I have no opportunity to do that because you want to be able to take on challenges above your ability.

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But I'm a trader/explorer who likes being able to defend myself. (I do almost have Master combat rank, now, for instance.)

I don't feel like I should be cut off from entire areas of space, just for daring to be in a trading ship - I ought to, by taking proper protection and weapons, be able to defend myself in those areas of space without needing to sacrifice my sanity to the lords of Dark Souls.

NO, lets not cut off your ability to go to some portion of the 100,000+ inhabited systems in the bubble in whatever ill-fitted ship you want (which you still could....), lets actually remove from the game the ability for pilots who want a decent fight from the AI to have one....yeah...that's fair and equitable. Why wasn't it that we all can't just be happy?

 

[V'larr]

I want to outfit my ship to the fullest capabilities because it flies better, it handles better, it feels better. I want to be able to use high level guns because they require more skill. I want to be able to test myself, you don't do that in a shieldless sidey, you're just a moron for flying one. It hasn't anything to do with min-maxing, it has to do with enjoying everything the game can give me and the game giving me a suitable challenge to test myself against. You think it's a solution to ignore a bunch of it in the interest of a hollow challenge, well no thanks, that's a bad idea.

Okay, great.

But outfitting your ship to be better, translates to making the game easier.

A game that demands you have A-rate top-notch equipment and the most expensive ships, just to have a basic fair fighting chance against the average mob, is completely bonkers.

In a single-player checkpoint(?) campaign mode game like Doom or Dark Souls, that's fine.

In a multiplayer single-universe make-your-own-game progressive world like Elite, that's not fair to most players.

If you really want the game to be harder, you have the means to make it harder.

You are of two minds, really, and you need to make them up and decide what it is you really want, I think.

 

[JacoTheBad]

The combat used to be embarrassingly easy, the new upped AI removed so much of the "grind" feeling of the game for me. The "grind" being that the combat you did while performing any task was so simple, that all you did was go through the motions without much of any thought..

.. I was literally embarrassed to show people combat, and did needless manuvering in order to make it seem more exciting, it was so obvious that a blind monkey could beat the baddies that I was actually embarrassed for the game in that regard.

The new AI took what would be a grind for this and that, and gave it substance... I haven't had a chance to combat with the AI after this latest patch, so I hope my frustration is premature.

Edit... Finaly got a chance to play a bit. They have been toned down, but still a decent jump up from 2.0 & before. I can empathize with those who will miss the extra edge & join in the chorus on that a bit, but I can live with this & have a good time.. Still a lot better then pre 2.1 levels.

 

[V'larr]

Then you're obviously fighting a challenge you aren't ready for, so leave it behind, don't remove it for me entirely. I haven't had a problem keeping gimbaled and fixed weapons on elite FDLs, eagles, cobras, FASs, clippers, anacondas or anything else, you just have to use what the game gave you. I couldn't be lax, I couldn't stop paying attention, I had to play, I had to think, I had to engage...now, I have no opportunity to do that because you want to be able to take on challenges above your ability.
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NO, lets not cut off your ability to go to some portion of the 100,000+ inhabited systems in the bubble in whatever ill-fitted ship you want (which you still could....), lets actually remove from the game the ability for pilots who want a decent fight from the AI to have one....yeah...that's fair and equitable. Why wasn't it that we all can't just be happy?

And already you're down to questioning my ability and assuming I'm worse than you.

I can guarantee, using fixed & gimballed weapons against Elite opponents, you were most definitely not "keeping weapons on" most of the time, between the constant chaff and the ultra-tight maneuvering they've been doing. That's a gross exaggeration at best.

Now, were you able to beat these opponents with fixed & gimballed weapons? Yes.
That's not the same thing as being able to keep weapons on them the majority of the fight.

I just want to have fun. An AI that kicks me in the teeth 100% of the time is not fun.

And like the whole point of this thread, we *both* can and ought to have our fun in our respective ways.

You, however, are insisting that I and the way I want to play the game be cut off entirely for your own personal gain, instead of taking things into your own hands to play the game the way you want it to be, largely because you're confused about whether you want things to be harder or easier.

Like I've mentioned, more challenges are coming. More challenges are available to you. It is your choice.