AI: We Can Have It Both Ways And All Be Happy

[Bacalao]

You're forgetting the argument that the AI was simply pushed too hard. It makes more sense if you consider my perspective.

I mean, let's be real - you're talking about being in the best combat ship in the game, bar none. Multirole loadout or no, it has enough utility slots and internals to fit plenty to be "combat-ready" unless you're intentionally going all cargo racks with no shields or weapons, which clearly would rule out being multirole (or sensible).

If you weren't able to clean the clock of any potential opponent with such a ship, I would start to question the sanity of the game designers.

You have achieved the best and the greatest currently available to us. Enjoy it as such, rather than expecting fights to feel like you're still struggling to make ends meet in a Cobra III - or just hop into said Cobra III and get the thrill again.



Have some real-life evidence of these exact things:
One-armed swimming used for professional training: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=80-7b9Io95w
Three-legged soccer, clearly doing it for "fun" (isn't that the whole point of all this?) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JKnjIr2_dOM
Wiffle-bat hitting a baseball...okay, you'd have to artificially cork the bat, but I mean...it's possible. People do enjoy wiffleball, at least.

Yup, the corvette is fantastic, don't have any issues in my FAS, or my Asp or my Viper IV either. I wouldn't fight everything in all of those, but I'd give things a good go and I haven't had a problem getting out if I ever needed to no matter what I was in or what was interdicting me, the AI was flat fine. There was AI suitable for almost everyone, really easy low grade AI, tough high grade AI and average middle AI, and it was all easily escaped from. But we had to go cut the top off the tree because people that got frightened in the top branches decided no one should be able to climb that high, so thanks. As to your second part...ugh...just...ugh.

 

[V'larr]

That's quite ok, and yes i know what you're getting at.
No two courses are the same, correct. But every one course is the same to every player, the difference in the challenge being individual skill.
What you have in golf to balance that skill difference is the handicap system, but you don't ask the more skilled player to play one-handed or blindfolded if he wants a more challenging round.
That's what i meant by "artificial".
I just don't think that having to voluntarily hamper yourself to up the ante is a sign of good game design, and will feel unsatisfactory to the player.
Quite naturally, a player wants to play to the best of his abilities and with the best available ship and loadout and still have a challenging experience.
I accept that this is very tough to achieve, but i think it at least should be the aim.

That's fair, to a point.
But if that skilled golfing partner was getting bored, saying the course is too easy, and insisting you *both* be blindfolded or onehanded, wouldn't that upset you?
Surely it'd be better to head to a more challenging course, where you can be the caddy instead if you're not feeling up to the course.

Plus, I know a golfer or two who likely *would* play one-handed or somesuch just to show off. (I'm not a golfer. lol)

Playing to the best of your abilities is one thing, playing with all the latest and greatest tech is another; playing with both should be an option, and I recognize it isn't here yet.

But in the meantime, I don't want to wear a blindfold - I'm just not into that kinky stuff. [big grin]

 

[PotatoOverdose]

There will be challenges down the road, and we already know they are coming. It will take more time. And in the meantime, you have the means and the power to challenge yourself if you so choose.

I did my waiting... 24 months of it... form beta onwards.

What is this whole "down the road business"? We got the perfect difficulty setting in 2.1. If you accept the need for a challenge, why would you want a delay? Especially when the challenge has already been here a month.

I understand the need for some players to have safe spaces where they can run around in their sidewinder without getting helldunked by an elite FdL. I'm totally for that. All I'm asking is that the original 2.1 AI, which many players loved, be present somewhere in game. Anywhere.

It can be in Haz res sites. Or compromised nav beacons. Or anarchy systems. Or Sag A* for all I care. Just somewhere where those of us that desire this exact challenge can access it. Is that really so much to ask? Quite frankly, I don't understand why anyone would be opposed to it. And, most of all, the code is already there. It was live for a whole month.

I don't want to play one legged soccer, I want to play two legged soccer. It's a simple thing we ask, really.

 

[V'larr]

Yup, the corvette is fantastic, don't have any issues in my FAS, or my Asp or my Viper IV either. I wouldn't fight everything in all of those, but I'd give things a good go and I haven't had a problem getting out if I ever needed to no matter what I was in or what was interdicting me, the AI was flat fine. There was AI suitable for almost everyone, really easy low grade AI, tough high grade AI and average middle AI, and it was all easily escaped from. But we had to go cut the top off the tree because people that got frightened in the top branches decided no one should be able to climb that high, so thanks. As to your second part...ugh...just...ugh.

Don't worry, I was being silly with the videos - silly commentary gets a silly reply.

If you know what you're doing, then yes, escaping the AI can be easy, but...being allowed to run from a fight doesn't make the fights easy, per se, it just means you're not being held down and forced into it, right?

I will hold back on what I think of the AI changed by this point update til I've faced it myself; maybe it is easy. But I doubt it's so easy that even if I want to challenge myself intentionally, through whatever means (I have listed plenty of options, I think), that it would still feel too easy...and I am expecting Thargoids, or some as-yet unknown foe, to show up and make things hard.

To some degree, I will confess too, I'm fine with feeling like I'm in a big expensive ship that can blow enemies to smithereens after months of time and effort spent in smaller, weaker ships to get to that point.

Still. For your sake and others here in the thread, I do want a challenge to be available - just not *everywhere* and potentially forcing me to run when I'd prefer to try and stay (which I won't do when I know I haven't a chance).

 

[V'larr]

I did my waiting... 24 months of it... form beta onwards.
What is this whole "down the road business"? We got the perfect difficulty setting in 2.1. If you accept the need for a challenge, why would you want a delay? Especially when the challenge has already been here a month.

I'm gonna have to pull a Kanye and stop you right here.

Claiming the 2.1 AI was perfect, with so much negative feedback to the contrary here, on Reddit, on Steam, and elsewhere, is foolish.

Now, when you say this:

I understand the need for some players to have safe spaces where they can run around in their sidewinder without getting helldunked by an elite FdL. I'm totally for that. All I'm asking is that the original 2.1 AI, which many players loved, be present somewhere in game. Anywhere.
It can be in Haz res sites. Or compromised nav beacons. Or anarchy systems. Or Sag A* for all I care. Just somewhere where those of us that desire this exact challenge can access it. Is that really so much to ask? Quite frankly, I don't understand why anyone would be opposed to it. And, most of all, the code is already there. It was live for a whole month.
I don't want to play one legged soccer, I want to play two legged soccer. It's a simple thing we ask, really.

On all this, we can agree!

I'd be fine with HAZ zones being that way, or Powerplay, or Combat zones. Compromised Nav Beacons, I think, could be toned down a bit actually - seems a little wild to me when there's 20 pirates instantly on your tail just for stopping to scan the system's exploration data, but I mean...it's still an optional visit, so if it were harder that'd be cool too.

I don't think anybody would be opposed to it, if you asked them, really - just so long as NPC pirates or mission-related targets are kept at a "fair to all" level (NPC pirates are the main offenders, honestly).

I'm all for you playing two-legged soccer, too, if you want!

I do wonder if it would be so simple to 'split' the AI code like that, though...we shall see.

I would honestly be surprised if Frontier didn't do something in the next couple weeks to offer a higher-challenge opponent for people to go and find.

 

[Kaa Mchorror]

We need an alien threat now more than ever. A large area of space in constant conflict and war that the players who don't want intelligent AI can avoid.

 

[V'larr]

We need an alien threat now more than ever. A large area of space in constant conflict and war that the players who don't want intelligent AI can avoid.

Pretty much on-point with what I'm expecting will happen when Winter Comes...and I'm betting that the "Wings" release will allow those players who are scared of such AI, to have a means of supporting the war efforts, albeit for a likely higher cost.

 

[Moritz Norman]

We've gone from numerous threads detailing issues with AI being far too challenging for the majority, to numerous threads from the competitive souls out there claiming it's now been lobotomized (usually based on anecdotal 1-time evidence in RES sites, but I digress).

Well, the complaints about challenging AI were often anecdotal and often displayed a lack of basic survival skill knowledge. I'm not in RES sites right now, there's no point with the engineers focus. Most of my combat in 2.1 has been in CZs and Signal Sources.

Additionally in that meantime, let's discuss many ways you *can* make the game harder if you so choose, right now:

[haha] So resort house rules to enjoy the game? I already do much of what you list in your suggestions, most of those suggestions are not challenging if the AI itself is dumb.

I do like your avatar, though. MoO 2 was a great game, and one that housed a challenge.

 

[V'larr]

Well, the complaints about challenging AI were often anecdotal and often displayed a lack of basic survival skill knowledge. I'm not in RES sites right now, there's no point with the engineers focus. Most of my combat in 2.1 has been in CZs and Signal Sources.

[haha] So resort house rules to enjoy the game? I already do much of what you list in your suggestions, most of those suggestions are not challenging if the AI itself is dumb.
I do like your avatar, though. MoO 2 was a great game, and one that housed a challenge.

Fair, the anecdotal experiences have been on either side of the fence.

I will cave here and concur the the AI shouldn't swing too far and be "dumb", I'm just real hesitant to jump to that conclusion so soon after the patch has been out. I gave 2.1 the same initial few days/weeks of hesitation.

MoO2 is still, in my opinion, the king of turn-based strategy & tactics...no other game has come close yet; Stellaris, maybe, if it had had turn-based combat. I'm pretending Wargaming's abominable abuse of the title just doesn't exist (same as MoO3, really...).

Thankfully I have DOSBox, and there's a faithful bunch of folks running http://www.moo2mod.com/, keeping a great set of unofficial patches going; it can be a little much dealing with the text-file-configuration, but it's nice to have the options too. I've been experimenting with the ICE mod rules, not sure about it yet. (Can definitely make Impossible feel totally impossible! lol). I always find myself coming back to it, it's worth getting the audio to work through DOSbox too!

 

[V'larr]

OP edited, added this idea that I saw in another thread:
- Play as a criminal

There are *lots* of high-rank security ships I've seen in some places...that would be a challenge, indeed!

 

[Moritz Norman]

MoO2 is still, in my opinion, the king of turn-based strategy & tactics...no other game has come close yet; Stellaris, maybe, if it had had turn-based combat. I'm pretending Wargaming's abominable abuse of the title just doesn't exist (same as MoO3, really...).

Thankfully I have DOSBox, and there's a faithful bunch of folks running http://www.moo2mod.com/, keeping a great set of unofficial patches going; it can be a little much dealing with the text-file-configuration, but it's nice to have the options too. I've been experimenting with the ICE mod rules, not sure about it yet. (Can definitely make Impossible feel totally impossible! lol). I always find myself coming back to it, it's worth getting the audio to work through DOSbox too!

Is there any reason you run that instead of just the GoG version? I continue to install MoO2 and play it every few years, no other 4x has topped it for me.

I like Stellaris, but haven't been able to devote much time to it because I'm obsessed with Elite.

 

[5thNovember]

I know my throttle control. I know how useful FA/off can (and can't) be. (Really, FA-on with proper thruster control is just as good and sometimes superior, but that's subject to point of view.)

I'm not "bad at the game". I have flying experience. I've played competitive games successfully before. If I must wave my e-peen for you to believe me, I will, but that's rather besides the point of discussion here.

Yet I had to struggle just to barely survive, in some of the more expensive and difficult ships to obtain, that historically have been favoured for combat in Elite Dangerous. That's just too much.

If you had to struggle just to barely survive, you're simply not a good pilot.

 

[salad]

We need an alien threat now more than ever. A large area of space in constant conflict and war that the players who don't want intelligent AI can avoid.

Only Thargoids can save us now.

 

[V'larr]

Is there any reason you run that instead of just the GoG version? I continue to install MoO2 and play it every few years, no other 4x has topped it for me.
I like Stellaris, but haven't been able to devote much time to it because I'm obsessed with Elite.

Never tried the GoG, started off with Dosbox on my computer for 1830 Railroad Robbers & Barons (I prefer it to Minesweeper). And I *think* it's required, in order to use the unofficial patches.

If you had to struggle just to barely survive, you're simply not a good pilot.

Aww, so soon with ad hominem!
I could just as easily say "If you ignored everything to this point just to post that, you're simply not a good poster." and that statement would carry equal weight to yours.

If you want to measure epeen, fine - you asked for it.

60%+ win rates in World of Tanks/Planes/Warships/Armored Warfare/MWO, 58%+ in shooters (e.g. Combat Arms years ago, Call of Duty, Battlefield, whatever, they're all the same), I play Impossible/Hardest mode in MoO2 & 1830 respectively, I played Halo on Legendary in my sleep, and I'm not afraid of playing Dead Space on the hardest difficulty in the middle of the night when it's dark and I'm all alone. Plus I have a pilot license. Get at me bro

In all seriousness. I know how to play the game. I've played lots of video games. I've spent a lot of time playing this one in particular. I haven't gotten to Expert-soon-to-be-Master by accidentally ramming things.

Yet even if I were mr. casual carebear fuzzy wuzzy arthritic amateur (am I missing anything, there, or have I caught all the usual labels?) who needs to "git gud", I would still have a valid viewpoint, just like anybody else.

 

[JacoTheBad]

V'larr.. I've enjoyed your arguments on this thread, and you managed to keep things relatively civil voicing your points while defending yourself +1 rep for that and the good read.

On a Side note: I have finaly had a chance to meet the new AI, and although I can empathise & join a bit in the chorus for those who may miss the extra edge... I can live with this & enjoy the combat boost we still have over 2.0... Still a far cry better then that

 

[V'larr]

V'larr.. I've enjoyed your arguments on this thread, and you managed to keep things relatively civil voicing your points while defending yourself +1 rep for that and the good read.

On a Side note: I have finaly had a chance to meet the new AI, and although I can empathise & join a bit in the chorus for those who may miss the extra edge... I can live with this & enjoy the combat boost we still have over 2.0... Still a far cry better then that

The good feels are appreciated!

 

[PotatoOverdose]

Additionally in that meantime, let's discuss many ways you *can* make the game harder if you so choose, right now:
- Set your own rules about what happens if you die, see this thread: https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...le-For-those-who-want-some-risk-in-their-game!
- Stick to ships that aren't Anaconda-tier
- Intentially limit yourself to sub-par equipment
- Fly FA-off *all* the time (and if you do already, great!)
- Don't RES farm; instead, go wander into a combat zone
- Stick a cargo rack in and stuff it full of gold, then head to a compromised nav beacon
- Join Powerplay (whether it's flawed or not, it WILL give you more & challenging attackers)
- Exclusively look for & attack NPC wings
- Play as a Criminal

And I'll be happy to add any other bright ideas that may pop up in the thread!

TL/DR:
Use the tools in *your* hands to make Elite more Dangerous for yourself, instead of demanding the Fdev wrecking ball!

There's also a few fundamental problems with these suggestions too.

1) - Stick to ships that aren't Anaconda-tier
Can't do this without giving up all of my engineers related cargo (not materials), some of which takes quite a few missions to get. If I switch ships, I have to ditch all cargo. Further, while module storage is planned, there is no cargo storage planned. So, If an Anaconda pilot such as myself wanted to fly an eagle, he'd be **** out of luck. There goes that "challenge" option.

2) - Intentially limit yourself to sub-par equipment
This is a non-option until FDev introduces module storage. But hey, at least they are planning on introducing module storage...eventually...

So we really don't have all the tools to make the game more challenging either, unless we forgo all engineer content. And at that point, we would have forgone better AI AND Engineers, you kind of have to wonder what was the point of the last few releases...

So no, I don't *really* have the option to downgrade either.

 

[Ziljan]

So basically play a playstyle that might not fit what you want to do because people are flying ill fitted ships and piloting them wrong?

You don't want to restrict your self horribly just because they baby-proofed the game? That makes no sense at all.

I am having fun with my new Elite play style:

 

[V'larr]

There's also a few fundamental problems with these suggestions too.
1) - Stick to ships that aren't Anaconda-tier
Can't do this without giving up all of my engineers related cargo (not materials), some of which takes quite a few missions to get. If I switch ships, I have to ditch all cargo. Further, while module storage is planned, there is no cargo storage planned. So, If an Anaconda pilot such as myself wanted to fly an eagle, he'd be **** out of luck. There goes that "challenge" option.
2) - Intentially limit yourself to sub-par equipment
This is a non-option until FDev introduces module storage. But hey, at least they are planning on introducing module storage...eventually...
So we really don't have all the tools to make the game more challenging either, unless we forgo all engineer content. And at that point, we would have forgone better AI AND Engineers, you kind of have to wonder what was the point of the last few releases...
So no, I don't *really* have the option to downgrade either.

You can buy all (I'm pretty sure, at least) engineer "commodities" (as in cargo space items) at specific locations around the human bubble. There's more information about it in that Engineer Calculator thread over here https://forums.frontier.co.uk/showt...ring-Database-And-Calculator-Engineers-Update ; so you *ought* to be safe selling them? Check the database to be sure, I could be wrong.

edit: Alternatively, though expensive-ish, you could land and buy a ship that has enough stock cargo space to hold whatever commodities you have. (If you have too many for even that, then wow!)

The storage thing is an issue, sure. But in a sense you're already upping your own challenge, cause it's sure to lure NPC attackers after you.

In your case, well...the tools are there but your hands are full with Engineers stuff.

(I'd have been happy with no Engineers or AI changes but then, that's definitely my own biased view. My favorite part of 2.1 are the flight traffic controllers.)

You don't want to restrict your self horribly just because they baby-proofed the game? That makes no sense at all.
I am having fun with my new Elite play style:

Funny picture!

The difference is whether you're duct-taping yourself to the wall, or demanding that someone force you up against the wall along with every body else there who came to enjoy the same party.

 

[Ziljan]

Funny picture!

The difference is whether you're duct-taping yourself to the wall, or demanding that someone forcd you up against the wall along with every body else there who came to enjoy the same party

You're the one "asking" people to duct tape themselves willingly and somehow still have fun with 0.01 % of the game.

Interesting that you still see yourself as a (group of) victim(s). Come play in open and I'll help you get into the role a little better.